Do you smack??

[Jennifer13]

Oh. I did forget to mention that a few weeks ago she told me she wanted to die. She was in trouble when she said it. & I turned around & walked out coz I didn't want her to see that she got to me, coz I know that's why she said it.
She knew anyway & started yelling it out over & over again. I didn't know if I should give her what she wanted by going in & sympathising with her coz she said it or ignoring her.
I ended up leaving it til the next day & talked to her about it then.

Bjrose, from this post and your previous one it sounds like you and your DD have fallen into a pattern of behaviour that isn't working. At six, I doubt she is actively trying to upset you. I think it is more likely that this is how she gets your SOLE attention. I gather it's pretty hard to deal with the other kids when her tantrum is monopolising your time and attention. And siblings do compete for their parents love and attention, especially when they're close in age. I remember doing it with my two sisters (we were similarly aged apart to your kids).

It sounds like you try really hard to ignore her bad behaviour, but I wonder if you could pay more attention to her good behaviour? When you're really busy (as I imagine you would be with three kids!) it's easy to not notice that she's been quiet and well-behaved for 15 minutes, but it's probably when she deserves a special cuddle and a thank you for being Mummy's big girl when you needed to do something. And when she did do her homework as you had asked, despite the tantrum (and IMO it's much harder to calm down and then do the right thing than just doing it in the first place), did you tell her you were really pleased she had done as you asked?

I also think it's really easy for a particular child to be labelled as being the 'bad kid' or the 'good kid' and that generally makes the competition amongst siblings even worse. Jaz's behaviour is probably going to be viewed with less lenience because you're so used to looking out for when she misbehaves.

Anyway, don't mean to lecture - I'm certainly not an expert!! Thanks for so honestly sharing your story, it gives me (and no doubt others!) some great insight into how other people manage difficult situations in their families.

[paradise lost]

Cricket, could you give an example of something you'd use spanking for? If you don't want to that's of course totally fine - i just can't think of a scenario where i'd smack (i couldn't even think of one like the example you cited - disobeying a direct instruction, because i don't think i set DD up like that - like i say "Don't draw on the wall" while removing the crayon or putting the paper right in front of her, so i more redirect i guess?) and am interested in seeing the sort of thing you mean so i can think what i'd do. THis is such an interesting thread!

Also, i wanted to say before, about the parent/child becoming reflected in child/partner when the kids grows up - i DO think it's much more complicated than that kids will go and find someone "just like mum" or "just like dad" (depending on sexuality), but i also think that some things will be tolerated more, or get under the radar if they are things a kid saw in the family home when young. I don't think a child who is hit at home will PREFER a violent partner, not at all, but i do think they're more likely to TOLERATE one, kwim? And though i totally agree about adult relationships being different, most adults in fact DO use silent treatment, nagging, with-holding affection/sex/effort in the home/whatever to get their partner to comply with what they want, and MANY also use varying degrees of threatening behaviour/aggression/violence.

Bx

[sushee]

I don't agree with emotional blackmail either (which I gather is what your mum did to you, Ryn, and what your mother did to you, Bx) and have been the recipient of it with my XH. It was another method of discipline he used on my older children that now sees their relationship with him wavering.

My aim is to be as consistent without getting angry, or smacking, or blackmailing. When my DD recently described me to her BF, she said I was the most controlled person she knew. And that was when she was upset with me. If that's the worse my kids can say about me, I'm happy with that.

I am also the first person they come to when they're in trouble (and trust me they have had their fair share of trouble) and the one they come to for advice (even though they don't always take it). I will not lend them money but I will cry with them when they are geniunely hurt or upset. My DD also said that I was one person she knew would always be here for her. It's exactly the kind of parent I hoped to become, esp now my older kids are growing up and away from me and becoming young adults.

It's such a hard balancing act this caper we call parenting. And smacking, like you said Cricket, if it is effective, is only so at a small time of their lives - probably the first 4-5 years. Trust me when I say the challenges of teenagers far far outweigh the challenges of 1-5 year olds, and knowing what I do, that once they're teenagers, just about the only influence you have left with them is the values you gave them when they were young. So the values I wish to impart (no smacking, no CC, gentle discipline, no emotional blackmail, acceptance and mutual respect), to me, require their foundations built at a very very young age. It's why I've made the decision that it will never be one of my children's early memories that I ever raised a hand to them.

[Liz]

I'll give an example where we would smack (sorry cricket - i know you were asked LOL)

DS draws on the wall. I ask him "do we draw on walls?" he says "no, paper". So we go and get paper. He then continues to draw on the wall. He gets a warning. "DS.. we draw on paper. If you draw on the wall again, you're going to get a smack". (altho.. these days he gets sent to his room, or whatever he's playing with gets taken away). 5 mins later.. he's hidden himself in the loungeroom, doors closed, and is drawing on the wall in there. So, he gets that smack (or sent to his room. whatever was threatened). I then ask him to tell me why he was sent to his room, and he knows.. then he says sorry. We haven't had repeat incidents. In fact I've left some of the scribble on the wall, and he remembers that it was norty and tells me. So we can have little reminders of how its norty to draw on the wall... without him actually having to get into trouble for it again. LOL (never mind my laziness in not cleaning it off )

ETA: just want to add that you really need to find what works with your child at the time. We didn't want to smack early on, but distraction never worked, and naughty corner didn't work, taking something off him didn't work. He just didn't care. A sharp tap on the hand tho made him pay attention. Now smacking has joined the ranks of "pfft.. I don't care" and sending him to his room or taking the toy off him DOES work. So smacking has played it's part for us and is still there occassionally.

[paradise lost]

bjrose, i think that letting this out will help, truly i do. You two (yourself and DD) are having some tough times, but you CAN come through it.

I think you might be misinterpreting the whole behaviour thing. DD asked you "why are you being nice to me?" because nice isn't the normal thing. You told her you love her and want to be nice. She doesn't know if it's true. She wants to know if you REALLY love her, if you REALLY want to be nice to her, so she's testing you. She's finding out what will happen if... Will mummy still love me? Will she still want to be nice to me? I really feel for you, it's SO hard to come through this sort of testing, but i KNOW you can do it!

Time together- do the other 2 nap? Do they nap when she's around? Honestly if i were you i'd start getting the younger 2 into bed by say 7 or half 7 so you can have a bit of one-on-one with her. I know, chaotic, especially without help (your DH's hours sound awful for you all ) but desperate times (your thoughts re: DOCS and her thoughts on wanting to die) call for desperate measures.

Can you head her off at the pass so to speak with her stubborness? Ask her at bedtime what she wants for breakfast and give her that? Or give her 2 choices in the morning and let her pick? Or sit down and ask her to help brainstorm a week of breakfasts and put them on the calendar so she has warning about what's coming? It might be simpler to have her fight HER than you. You give her 2 choices of breakfast and when she chucks a fit because she doesn't want whatshe picked you say "oh, that's a shame, maybe you need to think harder next time you have to pick" and leave it at that. She can eat it or not. She chose it. If she throws it on the floor she can pick it up or go to time out. IF she tanrtums during whichever she chose, well, that's a pity, maybe she should have made a different choice. The same with all the other things really - she DID eventually choose to do her homework so she copuld use the computer - she's smart, she's going to figure it all out sooner or later, kwim? Try not to put yourself in opposition to her, it only leads to more and more conflicts. Being calm and loving and "nice" REALLY DOES work - eventually. But a kid whose trust is broken needs to regain trust. A kid whose boundaries have moved needs to test new boundaries. A kid like Jaz, who is more needy and demanding and willful by nature needs to have the consistency PROVEN to herbefore she will rely on it. Gentle discipline doesn't always get you well-behaved kids, but it does get you well-adjusted adults.

It must feel like i'm sitting here churning out responses without having to LIVE it, and i KNOW how vast the gulf between saying and doing is hun, really i do. Have you thought of Triple P or other parenting classes for more hands-on advices?

Bx

[paradise lost]

Sorry Liz, just saw your post now!

In that situation i would say "DD we draw on PAPER" and give her paper. If she drew on the wall again i'd say "do you want to draw on paper or do you want to put the crayons away for now?" If she did it again i'd take her crayons away - i actually make HER put them in the tub and then i put the tub out of reach.

Bx

[Lulu]

Hoobley, you have to much to offer. I really enjoy reading your posts, esp these one.

BJ - things WILL go ok for 3 days or so, then she will push the boundaries. So you stand firm. There may be tears and rending of garments but you stand firm. Then it will go ok for maybe 5 days, then she might push. Then you stand firm again.
The behaviour will take a little while to change, but she will actually feel more secure knowing what will happen. You ARE making progress, even if it doesn't feel like it and yes it is tiring.

I think kids are like vessels and some need to be filled more than others. DD was an "easy" child - set boundaries, little push from her to see if they are firm - then all was well.
DS - well he is lots the same as Jaz, he needs HEAPS more attention than the other two - HEAPS, but once he is filled he is fine. It takes a bit and I've learnt alot in the last year, but now he is easier to "fill". If that makes any sense at all.....

[~clover~]

Thanks heaps you guys.
I will persist. I think we've already had the lowest of lows, so I should be able to get through it. Especially if the psycologist picks up a problem at school or what ever & we get that sorted out. Getting DH to try harder to control his temper with her will help too. He is trying, but like I said, at 26 he is still the same as her in that way, so it probably won't be perfect.
But hopefully all will be OK eventually. I'd love a quick fix, but I know it's not possible.
Thanks again to everyone.

[~clover~]

hoobley - I know I need mopre 1 on 1 time with Jaz, & I do try, but sometimes it is impossible. The last job DH did he was gone from 5.30am til 8.30pm. He is usually home around 7 or 8. But it doesn't leave much of a chance to get time alone with her.
I do try to sit with her while she does her homework & do it with her. Try. It's probably only once or twice a week I manage to stay there the whole time though. DH knows he needs more time alone with her too & tries really hard, but it's not easy with the hours he does.



There are times when he just makes things harder.
Jaz & DH are exactly the same.
In every way. DH has the same short temper & stubbornness. They both insist on having their own way every time. I honestly think it's a genetic trait. DH's father is apparently the same, but DH never knew him. They both need to be the center of attention. It's a very full on house at times!

My feelings towards Jaz have changed. So have DH's, but it's a bit more obvious with him. It hurts me so bad to think how much their relationship is suffering. I still love her as my child, but it's getting hard at times to remember just how much I do love her. I know I do & thats why I haven't walked into DOCs & said take her I can't do it. I admit that I have thought about it. It hurts so much even to admit that to myself. I've never let her know I've felt like that though.

I don't usually get up remembering things from the previous day, but it doesn't take long for things to start in the new day. Maybe I'll give her the wrong thing for breakfast or something. Then its all on again.

I have been saying how good she's been alot more, because I'm trying so much harder to relax & pay more positive attention to her. I just want to love her like I used to. Like I love the other too. I want my baby back.
I am trying really hard & I hope that it pays off. For a few days it definetly did.
When I first started to be more calm towards her & not losing it, she kept saying to me - Why are you being so nice to me? I told her because I love her & I want to keep being nice, but she's got to help out by being nicer to me. I think it lasted about 3 days. Once the initial shock of me being nice all the time wore off. I still try to be the same, but she isn't worried about my response any more. If I am 'nice' & just sit & talk to her about what she's done wrong, she thinks tht thats not so bad, so she does it again. As if the being 'nice' meant she got away with it & can do it again with out getting into trouble like she used to. The time outs are easier & the things taken away are soon forgotten about.