Do you smack??

OK. I havent read every post cos I am supposed to be working :rolleyes:

But I do have strong view points on this.
When I was young I smacked my dog for doing something 'naughty'. At that moment I realised that I had smacked her because I was angry at her not because it helped me teach her what I wanted to do. I have never since smacked anything.

Children learn mostly from imitation. They learn how to deal with situations from their parents so if their parents act in a violent way (yelling, hitting etc) that is how they will learn to deal with that situation.

I also don't believe that children need to fear their parents. Respect and fear come from very different places. I think respect comes from having logic behind your decisions and explaining them to your child. Fine, a one year old won't understand a big lecture but by using one word to show your reason eg. 'stop! danger!' when they go to touch the hot stove or stand on their chair will help them to realise the consequences as they learn to talk.

Going a bit OT, I think we have to think about whether we are raising our kids to be good children or good adults. Good adults have learnt logic through related cause and effect (eg. if I stand on my chair I might fall off) rather than unrelated cause and effect (eg. if I stand on my chair I get a smack from mum).

So I don't see the situation totally as to smack or not smack (although I don't smack) but rather how best to (safely) teach your child to understand a situation.

:

---

I have never smacked my dogs either. One of my dogs would bark constantly and I would simply use a bottle to spray water in his face. That combined with positive praise when he was quiet and a week later the barking had stopped. I know you can't compare this to a child but it goes to show that I didn't need to use violence or a power trip to get him to do the right thing.

---

Just to clarify, (but getting OT) smacking and spraying with a bottle are both punishment techniques. The difference is that if you use smacking the dog is focused on you, knows the punishment comes from you, and may not make the connection between the behaviour and the punishment. The waterbottle is used while the dog is (presumedly) looking at whatever is stimulating it to bark and not you and is more likely to make the connection (and not think it came from you). If for example, you went up to the dog and then either smacked or sprayed it would have the same effect as the dog is then focused on you and won't make the connection between behaviour and punishment. Both are negative for the dog and really aren't very different. Again it is about making the dog think of the appropriate cause and effect - that the barking causes the spray and not that the owner having a spray bottle causes the spray. IYKWIM?

(but I actually don't agree with punishment used in this context. Just wanted to explain a bit more from an animal behaviour POV)

I smack my kids.
However, I think the absolute essential point of ANY discipline method that you choose is that it needs to be accompanied by teaching, administered in love, and applied consistantly! Your children must understand that you are not venting frustration on them (that's abuse!) or getting your way because you are bigger, or they have pushed you beyond the point of being reasonable, or whatever. When you give a clear instruction, your children should know what is expected, and know what the consequences will be if they don't obey. They must also know when they are disciplined that it is because you love them, and you want them to bring them up well.
Discipline, in whatever method you choose, will be effective if you use it in that way. When you put your foot down, mean it. But don't be a crazed parent striking out whenever the mood strikes you, and calling it discipline!
Also, I don't think it's right to use an instrument to strike your child. If you use your hand only, only on their bum, you can strike to sting a little, but never to really hurt them!
As far as confusing your children about hitting others and being smacked - I was never confused about that, and my children are not either. They do not smack each other on the bum. When they hit, they are hitting in anger at faces, arms, legs, etc. Smacking on the bum for discipline is not done in anger.

I couldn't have smacked if i wasn't angry. It's one thing i struggle with - do you parents who smack REALLY calm down and then when you're flat calm smack? If i'm calm it never strikes me that i'd WANT to smack. And i DO want to smack when i'm enraged, it's just i have only once done so, you know? Like say DD draws on the walls or mirror (her favourite just now). If i'm enraged i think "MY BLOODY FLOORS!" and want to smack the crayon out of her hand (though i don't, i take 10 deep slow breaths to calm down and then deal with it), if i'm calm i think "WHY did i leave her crayons out again!?" and say "DD, we don't draw on walls, we draw on PAPER" and provide her with some. I don't get how i could hit her if i wasn't angry - i really don't like hitting though (between anyone) so maybe that's why.

Also, this is going to sound really weird but when i was 14 i went out with a guy (he was 20) who knocked me about a bit and i actually preferred it in some ways. I know, it sounds awful, but if he was angry with me he would guilt-trip me and cold-shoulder me and generally create a really awful atmosphere. If he slapped me it would be over with. I used to be glad if he slapped or pushed or punched me that it was over with, and i'd be worried about that with a kid, that they were preferring a smack as a quick resolution to something without real consequences...?

I found a clip on Youtube of a young man on Dr Phil (who i can't stand, btw!) here which really highlights to me the reason i think hitting is not for us. There seems to be a dynamic whereby they fight about who hit whom HARDEST, and how one hit is worse than another, and it is clear the boy is very very upset with his mum. I felt awful for them and wondered how the loving dynamic you want in a family had become so out of reach for them.

Bx

:

---

To me you can divide kids into before they have impulse control (under 4) to when they begin to have it (4-8) to when they have it (9+). Before they have it it's my job to prevent disasters.

---

I dunno... my 2yo definitely knows when he's doing something naughty. I can ask him if he should be drawing on the wall, and he'll say "no, on paper". He's definitely learning responsibility already for his actions.. I'm not going to take responsibility for things he knows full well are naughty. In fact he looks at me waiting to get in trouble when he knows he's doing something he's not allowed to do LOL. I can ask him what the consequence of doing something is.. eg. he has a tin whistle/recorder type thing that he plays.. but he often hits things with it.. I ask him what happens if he hits things with the whistle, and he says 'go room'. Going to his room is the latest punishment that works LOL.

We have smacked. I agree with (can't remember who said it) that we smack when he already knows he shouldn't be doing something, but not for things he wouldn't have known were dangerous or naughty. But punishments have changed as he's gotten older, and no doubt his 'currency' will change many times yet.

Each child is different. We haven't entirely ruled out smacking as an option that's for sure, but we do try other things. We always have a chat & a hug after whatever punishment is administered, and he's very good at saying sorry, which is lovely. He spontaneously says sorry now when he's hit or hurt someone, even by accident, (not all the time, but still!) so I figure how we're handling him can't be all wrong :)

Oh - one thing I wish I'd never started is counting to 3. LOL. Now he doesn't do anything until I'm up to 2 1/2!! If only I could shift that to doing it when I ask in the first place! LOL. I guess I should be grateful it works.. I get cranky with DH when he gets to 3 and then doesn't do anything about it.. I said you have to follow through if you get to 3 or it undoes the whole thing! heheheh.

Liz, it can be that young children can understand the concept of their actions being 'wrong', but can't actually control themselves to stop doing it. Like they find a crayon they want to draw and the wall is RIGHT there in front of them, so they have to draw on it, even though they know they shouldn't. That's why it's called impulse control, cause although they know the action is not appropriate and might carry consequences, they do it anyway.

I've noticed that with my kiddo (20mo), he knows what he's doing is wrong, and if you intervene soon enough, where he's kind of thinking about being naughty, you can avoid the bad behaviour, but once he's decided to do it anyway...it's kind of too late, once he's started, it's like he's commited to the naughtiness. :P

Mmm, better go, dinner.

I've only read the last page so sorry if I'm repeating anything but....

We've had issues with discipline since Matilda was 17 months. Initially DH & I were passionately opposed to smacking. After going through parenting courses, child psychologists etc we read some books about it & decided that we would try smacking. We would give cool down time for us & Matilda & then smack for a behaviour, or we would say "Matilda, you are not allowed to bite your sister, if you do that again you will have to have a smack" If she did it again we would take her to her room (we are against impulse smacking & public smacking) and she would get a smack from me. We also agreed ahead of time that DH would never smack Matilda. Look, it worked for a week and then we started smacking on the sly. Once we realised this we stopped it alltogether. I believe that we as parents are challenged to raise a child through correction, and discipline. I don't think smacking works with Matilda anyway, and it doesn't work for DH & I so its not for us.

With DD2 who is only 19 months, I can't find any reason to smack. I haven't had a reason to do it & I don't plan on doing it.

Yeah, when i say impulse control, that's not the same as knowing the rules. Children only have a conscience from around 3, though you see signs of it before then, it comes and goes (which is why they, mine does too, SOMETIMES apologise, but nmot always). That means that there is no internal guilt mechanism and no means of controlling behaviour, even behaviour that they know is undesireable. My DD can also tell me "draw on PAPER!" when i ask, but this is an intellectual response she has learned, not an emotional response she feels, kwim? She still can't help but draw on the walls if she has the whim. Most children have a few impulses (drawing on things, spilling things, touching things they aren't allowed to touch, hitting with the whistle) which they cannot control and you can smack them or send them to their room daily, impulse control comes when it comes, it can't be "taught" - it's a developmental stage like sucking or walking or speech. The punishment can be useful in that it reinforces the rule, but it cannot teach the ability to obey the rules without constant reminding/punishment for breaking them. Because i know that i can put her in her room and listen to her cry and then get her out and talk to her about it and she will STILL, twenty minutes later, with the tears barely dried on her cheeks go and draw on the walls again, i prefer to keep the crayons out of reach unless i'm sitting down with her to draw (which i try to do once a day at least). Everyone has to take the approach that works for them, for me i prefer minimum conflict until the conflict can beget positive results.

If DD draws on the wall and then sees i am upset, she will stop. But at 2 she is unable to PREDICT i will be upset and prevent herself from drawing on the wall in the first place. Impulse control is a toughie for most of us (hence my smacking that one time - that was lack of impulse control too!) and when a child "misbehaves" and is looking at you, they are usually looking to you for help to re-establish their equilibrium of "right" and "wrong" - it's as if they've de-railed, they need you to put them back on the rails where it's safe, but they don't know how to get there themselves. Imagine like when a tiny baby waves their arms so much they can't latch on and feed well - they will look at you and scream, because they have no motor control and need help. Toddlers don't have a fully functioning conscience - YOU are their conscience. You are the angel and the devil on their shoulders. That what all the "testing" of boundaries are about - they don't fully grasp that you and they are seperate yet, you're a part of them, to them. When they push you to the limits it is THEIR limits they're trying to find. As children grow past 3 or 4 their own conscience begins to come online more continuously, so they feel bad for misbehaving without having to be told off (this is also when they begin to lie to see what effect that has - like, oh i did wrong, i feel bad, if i lie will i feel better? Or will mummy not be mad at me if she doesn't know i did wrong? But will i still be mad at me? - again, they are beginning to see that you and they are seperate - they can feel bad about something even if YOU don't know about it yet - this is the dawn of real individuality and its flipside, empathy) but they STILL often struggle with self-regulating their behaviour. That's the stage where i'd introduce harsher consequences and begin to let them have more opportunities to self-regulate.

Bx

I thought I'd replied to this!

I'm not against smacking, although I don't do it - yet. DS is intelligent enough to be told his behaviour is unacceptable and he is to stop doing this/put that away/whatever. About 75% of the time he does as he is told and made much of - he only does things because he wants more attention (usually when we're both busy eg cooking), and good behaviour brings that. The rest of the time we take the offending article away and put DS on the sofa with a toy. Once we have finished what we are doing, such as hanging the washing out, we'll go and play with DS - but we won't interrupt our chores for a naughty boy.

DS is brilliantly behaved the majority of the time (just before dinner is his nightmare time) and we have great fun playing together. He can spend two hours in a shop while Daddy buys a bicycle at lunchtime - now that is fantastic! (I did do a lot of wheeling him around on a big-boy-bike that was on display with Pingu on... DH wouldn't let us get it yet, the meanie!)

Would I smack? If DS was doing something he'd been told not to do because it would require hospitalisation, yes. Drinking bleach or a smack? I'd smack him. Running in front of a car or a smack? Smack again. I usually let him make his own mistakes, but dangerous ones he can be saved from making.

The main reason I don't smack is because DS is going to grow up to be a gentleman and settle things without violence. He is going to not hit or bite me (some day) and look after ladies, who are delicate creatures and need love, not violence. And I will have no moral superiority to be able to lecture him on being kind and gentle if I hit him, especially in anger. If it saves his life I'll do it in a heartbeat, but as a rule I won't hit him.

:) and DH does love giving me a quick "smack". It's usually for something silly and is a joke, so I don't mind and do the same back. DS also loves having his bum patted so I can't see smacking really working for us as a family.

There are lot of different views on this.

I agree that with DD2 she very rarely gets into trouble as she is still learning right from wrong. She doesn't really understand the difference yet.

But she is 3. DD1 is 6 & definetly knows the difference, but will do the same things my 3 year old will do. She draws on the walls, tips shampoo or bubble bath or whatever down the drain, tears up paper into tiny peices & leaves it everywhere, tears books. Things that you expect from a 2 - 3 year old. Not from a 6 year old.

Then doesn't get why she gets in trouble. I've tried explaining to her that DD2 is younger & doesn't know it's wrong yet. If they are both doing whatever it is, I try just talking to them both. But when DD1 is drawing on the walls yet again, knowing it's wrong without DD2 there I usually do yell, & send her to the naughty spot.
What else do you do with that? Telling her for 4 or more years that its wrong for her to do it anyway? Then throwing a tantrum when she does get sent to the naughty spot???

:

---

and DH does love giving me a quick "smack". It's usually for something silly and is a joke, so I don't mind and do the same back. DS also loves having his bum patted so I can't see smacking really working for us as a family.

---

Haha, we're smackers and pinchers too, Riv often does circuits in our house and we'll give him a whack every time he comes past, he thinks it's hilarous. :P In fact, he gets knocked about a LOT harder when we're mucking about than when he's being disciplined - the discipline is a mere tap.
But like I said before, gently remonstrating with him on its own - he thinks it's funny, whereas a tap/smack gets his attention, he seems to get the message 'hey, mummy's serious about this'.

Christy, that's an excellent point about the impulse smacking, I'll have to mention it to dh.

Impulse control really is important to take into account when disciplining hey - no point punishing when your bub doesn't know they've done wrong. As Hoobley says, that comes later, when they get to the age where they need to practice and develop self control.

Gee it's all so confusing isn't it - we're even learning that discipline has to be different from morning to night, because as he tires, he becomes sensitive and not much teaching sinks in by then anyway. Ai ai ai...

ETA: Man, it's a challenge hey bjrose! Does positive reinforcement work? Like a sticker chart for every day she doesn't write on the walls or whatever, and when she gets to x amount of stickers, she gets a small treat, or a special dessert, or whatever floats her boat? I understand that eventually one day we all want our kids to do the right thing just because it's right, but until then...perhaps she can get encouraged/rewarded for every day she sets a good example for her sister? (let me know what ends up working, I'm sure I'll need it in a few years time! :P)

bjrose i would have a harsher consequence. I don't in general offer a consequence i can't escalate. So if she draws on the walls she goes into time out. She can tantrum all she wants, but she still has to go to the naughty step.

I would at some point think of something that would really bother her - having her stereo/tv/whatever taken away. Then warn her well - if you do this again i will take xxx away for a week. She WILL do it again, she wants to see if you mean it. Follow through, fully. Even if after 4 days she is an *ANGEL* the punishment goes on as prescribed until it's done with.

It might also help to give her responsibilities and privileges due to her age so she can feel older than your littlie across the board, kwim? So if she only has the same rights/responsibilities as little DD, why should she behave better than her? Allowing a child to stay up even 30 minutes later at night, have special tasks she is allowed to do or help with, anything that increases in her pride in herself and her growing abilities. It sounds like she reckons little DD has a better deal than her and wants a slice of the pie! You have to make HER deal seem the more attractive option, does that make sense?

Bx

hmm.. I know what you're saying Bec, and would love to believe my child is that innocent. But I find it hard to believe that shutting all the doors to the loungeroom to hide in there and play with the xbox - or whatever has taken his fancy - is just an uncontrollable impulse.. seems fairly calculated to me LOL.

And when he misbehaves and looks at me.. it's more of a "i'm busted" look than anything, not a "am I allowed to do this" look.

I dunno.. maybe I give him too much credit.. and should take more of the blame LOL.

We do try to keep things out of reach - things like the video camera etc.. but our computers are always in reach, the tv is always in reach.. and he has free access to pens & paper, and is generally good and asks for paper to draw on. I think it's important for them to get into trouble, it's how they learn. If I kept all the pens out of reach, how would he learn that you really don't draw on anything but paper? It would all be theory, and no practical.

I just wanted to add a quick thought on the "if I smack my kids they will tolerate smacking from their partners" idea. I find that somewhat illogical. Would you expect your partner to put you on the naughty chair? Give you a time out? Take away your privileges? Absolutely not. We all understand that discipline is for parents and children, and not for husband and wife.
If you abuse your children - hit them in anger, or even give them the "silent treatment" when you are angry at them, etc, - then they might accept that in later relationships, but that is not the same as discipline. A controlled smack on the bum, in private, accompanied by teaching, and an explanation, followed by a hug is not going to be confusing for your child.

You guys both have good points.

Nelle - We did a star chart when she was 2 1/2 & stopped eating. It worked then, so maybe we could give it a go. The psycologist did suggest it a while ago now that I think about it. She was an only child then though. Having two more kids around might make a difference.

Hoobley - When I send her to the naughty spot I do ignore her til she's quiet & do all the things 'Super' Nanny says to do. But if DD2 goes near her she will lash out at her, or if she's still peed off when she's allowed to go.
To be honest she only has a TV & PS2 & neither of them are plugged in at the moment, waiting for her to not talk back to me for a whole day. I think it's been about a week now. She doesn't talk back like other kids, she will argue & yell & tell me she hates me for hours, no matter how calm & relaxed I'm trying to be when dealing with it.

eg, Asked me yesterday if she can use the pc
Me - after your homework
DD - No, I'm going on the computer now!
Me - No. Do your homework first.
DD - No! I want to go on there NOW!!!
I hate you mum. Your a bad Mum.
Me - No reply
DD - I want to go on the computer!! (screaming)
I walked away & ignored her til she calmed down, then she did her homework then went on the pc.

This is how nearly all our fights go. She can carry on for hours about what ever it is, even if she is ignored. I had to keep her home on Friday coz she was up til 11pm yelling & screaming on Thursday. I tried to go in there & be loving. I tried to say that is enough. I ended up ignoring it & crying to myself for 1 1/2 hours. She'd already had a screaming fit out the front that day about not being allowed in the front seat.

With her & DD2 & her thinking she's got the raw deal is true. Bri had Colic as a baby & has always been a night owl. I am trying to get her to bed earlier, but 9 - 9.30 is the earliest she can go at the moment. Too late for Jaz to stay up.
On Sunday Bri got given a 2nd hand bed for her bday from my IL's. Jaz thought that wasn't fair, but prior to that Bri was sleeping on a canvas camping bed about 15cm off the ground.
I tried to tell Jaz that her bed was better coz it was Dad's old bed, but not good enough, so I did tell her that I do want to buy her a new bed, but right now I just don't have the money.
For Jaz's bday she got a TV, school bag & ten pin bowling. For Bri's bday she got a Baby Born. That's it & Jazmyne still carried on about how Bri's is better.
Bri got a bag as she just started daycare & Jaz threw a tantrum coz Bri's bag was better than hers even though her's is only a few weeks old & that Bri's is just a smaller version. Both Dora bags.
She does constantly compete with Bri. Including telling Bri that she's prettier & skinnier.
It's like she's trying to prove to Bri that she's better than her. I don't know why? We never talk about skinny & fat or pretty & ugly. They both know that we think they are beautiful.

I'm having a really hard time trying to understand what it was that I did or am doing to make her feel so rejected. We have always been extremely loving & affectionate. She started saying love you, miss you at 13 months old.
But everytime she gets in trouble she says 'I guess everyone hates me.' I say to her that if she's going to do the wrong thing, she's going to get in trouble. She gets in trouble coz I love her & that is my job. To stop her doing things that are wrong. To teach her how to act.

My mum told me the other day to stop blaming myself & that to an extent Jaz has to own her own behavior. I have to stop putting it all back on myself. But it is so hard considering I pretty much raised her alone - DH wasn't much help back then.
I'm just glad I haven't got PND yet. I'm still waiting for it. I had it with both the girls, & life was never this stressful back then.

I feel so alone. I could go on for hours about the things she does, but until you've seen it. Spent time with it. Noone understands.

Lol Liz, have you never been unable to stop yourself eating a bar of chocolate you yourself bought? Or thrown the bag and reciept away for a new top or skirt so no-one else will know how much you spent? Do you never have those "OMG i HAVE to" moments? Maybe it's just me :P

Fortunately i am as good at hiding all the pens as DD is at not using them on walls, so she gets PLENTY of practice at the practical :cryinglaugh: It's just that i tend to think it's my fault rather than hers at this stage. :)

Bx

ETA - bjrose:

:

---

eg, Asked me yesterday if she can use the pc
Me - after your homework
DD - No, I'm going on the computer now!
Me - No. Do your homework first.
DD - No! I want to go on there NOW!!!
I hate you mum. Your a bad Mum.
Me - No reply
DD - I want to go on the computer!! (screaming)
I walked away & ignored her til she calmed down, then she did her homework then went on the pc.

---

Hun you handled that BEAUTIFULLY! You didn't give in, you made her do her homework first. She can kick and scream and over-react like a banshee, but she still had to do as she was told. That was a SUCCESS!!! Be proud!

It sounds like she has low self-esteem - that's NOT your fault. Some kids are more sensitive, that's all. My brother and i couldn't have been more different, raised in the same way, in the same house, by the same parents. Not responding to his first request made him feel like utter crap, whereas you could probably hold my shoulders and say "You're a horrible child!" into my face and i'd shrug and say "that's your opinion". LOL.

Do you have much one-on-one time with Jaz? Does she get any special mummy time? Sometimes it can be hard to make the time but just 30mins a day of one-on-one can make SO much difference. Could you fit that in? It doesn't have to be out of the house, it just needs to be officially recognised, like, "here is our 30mins, Daddy will look after DD and DS, Jaz and mummy are going to bake a cake/weed the garden/run out to the shop/play a computer game/whatever" so you get real time just the two of you. Make the time sacred, NO interruptions, it will be worth it i PROMISE.

It sounds like the two of you have become adversaries because she feels she has to fight for your attention (because she has higher eomtional needs than the other 2 but they have higher physical demands due to their age) and you are constantly having to battle with her to do the right thing when she should know better AS WELL as having 2 littler ones (who don't yet know better) to have to care for. It grows resentment - she makes your life harder than it needs to be so you feel annoyed, she senses your annoyance and misbehaves to get attention as it's easier than being "good" for the same attention. You need to become allies (NOT "mates", don't get me wrong, i think parents need to be parents) so that she feels like she's on your team and a valuable asset to that team. At the moment she's caught in a pattern of getting negative attention, because it's easier. Do you feel like you're starting afresh each day? It sounds like both of you are remembering yesterday's percieved "crimes" against one another.

Maybe you could sit down and ask her how she feels about how it is between you both? Open a dialogue? Does she enjoy reading/writing? Could you write a diary or notes back and forth? You could get a very pretty book and write in it "I felt sad today because we had a big fight about the computer. You are so smart, i want you to do your homework so you get the grades you deserve, that's why i didn't let you use the comuter first. I wish we didn't fight because i really love you." then give it to her - expect her to write back "I hate you mummy because you won't let me use the computer", but LET her own those feelings. Apologise FOR HER PAIN, but NOT for your actions. Once you begin talking honestly these things, while not being easier to work through, will be better lit so you both stumble less.

Best of luck, hige :hug: and a big pat on the back - you feel like you're not but you ARE doing it mama!

Bx

bjrose - what a trying time! :hug: I agree with your mum, I think. It sounds like your daughter is being somewhat manipulative of your feelings and others' too. She has figured out what gets to you and is using it. I can't offer a great solution to you, but just a thought on what works for us - when my DD tantrums, I send her to her room. If she says that she hates you, or speaks disrespectfully to you, tell her that is unacceptable and she will need to apologize, or sit in her room until she can. She can scream and carry on all she likes in her room, but you will not have to watch it, and she will soon lose interest in it when she has no audience. That kind of behaviour is attention-seeking.

I think it might be a long battle - that kind of behaviour is difficult to change, for her as well. It is her natural first response when things don't go her way, and it has worked well for her thus far - you feel terrible about your parenting! I think that consistancy is the key - hang in there honey! I believe you are having a terrible time, and can't see the end of this coming ever, but it will. You'll make it through.

I'd love to write more, but I have to run - I'll pop in later if I can! :hug:

hee hee - yup at the chocolate! but I usually have the same busted look on my face as DS does LOL. We're just as bad as each other. I think I'm still inclined to teach him that what he's doing is wrong tho, and reinforce it.. not let it slide because it's our fault for leaving things in reach and teach him how to shift the blame. Heck.. if I have to feel guilty for tucking into a packet of tim-tams.. he can too! LOL.

Perhaps I should just become a partner in crime with my son and enjoy it. Think of all the chocolate we could eat and smear all over the walls and furniture! Woohoo! and then we'll blame daddy for not padlocking the pantry LMAO.

Oh. I did forget to mention that a few weeks ago she told me she wanted to die. She was in trouble when she said it. & I turned around & walked out coz I didn't want her to see that she got to me, coz I know that's why she said it.
She knew anyway & started yelling it out over & over again. I didn't know if I should give her what she wanted by going in & sympathising with her coz she said it or ignoring her.
I ended up leaving it til the next day & talked to her about it then.

Just in relation to 'smack or run onto the road' sort of examples (sorry Ryn, just the one I remember from all the previous posts), as someone who doesn't smack and who now has children who are teens (and who I obviously managed to help avoid dangerous situations without smacking), I assure you can set boundaries for your children that do not involve hitting them. Just because you don't smack doesn't mean you don't have other tools of discipline available to you.

And yes I agree that as children get older they learn manipulation. But adults can also be similarly, if not far more, manipulative. Yet hitting them is socially unacceptable, so we don't do it. So I do believe you can deal with manipulation without smacking.

My sister smacks. Between her choice and my choice, I actually believe my choice is a far more difficult one for the parent. I won't sit here and lie and say I haven't been tempted to smack - hell, I'm only human. I get angry, I get frustrated, and I want to make them stop what they're doing right now. But as I've said before, I will not expect my children to behave in ways I'm not prepared to behave myself. Would I hit an adult who I believe was 'playing' me or manipulating me or who does something that makes me angry? No. So why would I hit my children for being less able to control their impulses? For not yet having learnt the social nuances of morality and cause-and-effect? Or for not understanding that some things are dangerous or wrong unless I teach them it is?

Those are the reasons I don't smack. I don't think that it makes me in an way a permissive parent. I think not smacking takes a concerted effort on the parent's part to control their emotions, their frustration and their anger. I don't get the "I smack when I'm calm" rationale, because, let's face it, smacking is usually borne of out frustration, or else you would be reasonable enough to calmly think of an alternative method to deal with it. Because if you could calmly and as a calculated punishment decide to smack despite weighing every single other alternative, that that's even more frightening than if you did it in anger, IMO.

As I said before, if you have smacked and it worked for you at the time, that's great. But choosing not to smack does not mean you are unable to provide discipline for your children. I think that that's a complete misconception.

Sushee, I completely agree that people who don't smack can effectively discipline their children. It irks me when people say 'what that child needs is a good smack'. The people who say that don't know the child, don't know the parents - smacking could be a complete disaster in some circumstances!

As for the smacking while not angry - it depends on how you view smacking, if you view it as nasty, then yeah, 'cold-blooded' smacking is scary. But if you view it as a disciplinary tool, then calm, thought through, rationed and explained to the child makes sense. You can hardly discipline a child if you can't discipline yourself.

Says she who doesn't have the discipline to get off the computer and go to bed...

Fair enough Nelle. I guess if you aren't morally opposed to smacking, you might view it as a method to train your child, and therefore be able to use it without anger. But coming from a family of smackers, and in all the people I have ever encountered who smack, it's been my personal observation that not one did it calmly, but as a reaction to anger or frustration at their child. But if you say that's not the case for you, I'm happy to accept that on face value and concede that perhaps it's possible. :)

Sushee, I don't want to smack DS, so we use reins so he can't run into the road and will use them until he doesn't (he won't hold hands, but I force him to if he wants to cross a road). It's not something I want to do, but sometimes you have to learn that a choice has a painful consequence. Having said that, I was rarely hit and my sister was, then my mum wanted to be our friend and that sent my sister downhill, so I don't know! I intend to be a parent and have DS respect me, tbh I think that I can bring him up without smacking him. I won't be proud of that, I think that should be normal. But if he's going to hurt himself I'd rather he learn some actions lead to pain without having to go to the hospital.

bjrose, you are doing a fab job. Really great. Keep it up. I agree that your Jaz may need more one-to-one with you, please give it. Just a chat in the morning as you go to school without the others. When I was little (and not-so-little) I felt very side-lined by my mother in favour of my little sister (although there was a good reason for that... I was side-lined!) and instead of spending time with me, she gave me the silent treatment for the last 18m or so I lived at home. But that was better than her whinging to me that her kids were awful and crap and she didn't know why she had them (the previous 3-4 years). Bec has some fab ideas - hun, would you mind popping into a time machine and talking to my mother about 20-25 years ago? Saying it's OK for a child to have feelings that don't mirror your own. Saying that you need to spend time with your children that isn't telling them they're too messy and have to clean up. Hence why my house is a mess now; I want DS to have a mummy he loves, not a mummy he always fails to please.

I'd much rather smack than wage the emotional warfare my mother and sister did to me. Smacking is by far the lesser evil in some cases. I'd rather have a smack, forgive and forget, than be ignored and belittled when spoken about for years.

:

---

I'd much rather smack than wage the emotional warfare my mother and sister did to me. Smacking is by far the lesser evil in some cases. I'd rather have a smack, forgive and forget, than be ignored and belittled when spoken about for years.

---

I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree Ryn. The one thing i am consciously changing about my childhood is the grudge-bearing. I felt once i'd "wronged" mum i could NEVER make up for it. Even after she "forgave" she would NEVER NEVER forget and i felt so manipulated by that. It's one of the reasons i asked bjrose if she felt they were getting up everyday with the undercurrent there of punishing one another for yesterday's misdemeanors. When life has been so difficult for so long it's really hard to let go of it all and say, "ok, from today we are beginning again" but grudge-bearing clogs everything up because if the child is asked to apologise/clean/up their mess/put the cake back but then isn't REALLY forgiven for it, what is the point in them obeying? They try and try and try and NEVER feel good enough, and you have to go on carrying your anger and guilt around all day and it just escalates. With DD i try really hard to address the behaviour and issue the consequence if there is one and then GET OVER IT. It's hard, i won't lie and sometimes i have to go into another room to "swap heads" so i can be bright and cheery again, but it works SO SO well for us.

The main thing i try to always remember with relationships (with anyone of any age) is that it takes TWO to fight. There can only be battles if you engage in them. I never argue with DD - what's the point? She's 2, she KNOWS she has to obey me, no matter what she thinks about it. That's frustrating and so i listen to her frustrations, but i don't argue or back down, i tell her factually what is happening next. That's it. The end. She may think and feel and SAY anything she wants about it. Because i try to only make necessary rules and requests, she is already realising that i'm not SO unreasonable, and i'm pretty sure we're on track so by the time she's a bit older she'll be able to really trust me, and know i won't railroad her for no reason. (I HOPE!!!)

I also try to hold onto my long view - i have ideals as to how i want my relationship with DD to be. I want us to have a strong bond based on love, trust and respect. A MUTUAL bond. I want her to be able to come to me for guidance and help, no matter what the scrape she's gotten into, and to know that i will offer all my best advice and still love her when she ignores it all. I will be her soft place to fall and the signpost to the source of her inner strength to rise again. When she is drawing on the walls, rubbing butter into the kitchen floor, throwing my hairbrush out of the window or putting sunblock into her dry hair, i focus VERY HARD on putting that relationship first and NOT acting in such a way that will jeapordise it. Parenting is the hardest thing i've ever done.

Bx

:

---

Because if you could calmly and as a calculated punishment decide to smack despite weighing every single other alternative, that that's even more frightening than if you did it in anger, IMO.

---

For me, smacking is not a last resort, a "I'm so frustrated I don't know what else to do" response. It is a choice I make BEFORE I am angry, before their behaviour has pushed me to the limit. When my girls cross a clear line, which I have laid out for them, and know that they understand, they are told that they will be spanked, and why, and what they need to do next time differently, and they receive one smack on the bum. It is an effective disciplinary tool, not a cruel beating, nor a venting of frustration. They know that. I make sure they understand. I am not a perfect parent, but I do my utmost to ensure that my children are not disciplined when I am angry, so that they do not confuse the two. Also, I do not smack them for things that are simply childish, or foolish. Spills, accidents, Hoobley's example of sunscreen in the hair, etc, all do not qualify for smacks, IMO. (I know that's not what you were saying it for Hoobs, just a good example of a time when you want to pull your own hair out!) Only, when they have deliberately disobeyed a clear direction.

I also respect your point about other discipline methods being effective, Sushee. I think that a parent can use other methods to discipline, so long as they are consistant, and make sure that they teach with the discipline.

And, as an aside, smacking, IMO, has a limited useful time. Once children reach about 5, I think, it is time to be done.

:

---

Parenting is the hardest thing i've ever done.

Bx

---

Absolutely!

:

---

Oh. I did forget to mention that a few weeks ago she told me she wanted to die. She was in trouble when she said it. & I turned around & walked out coz I didn't want her to see that she got to me, coz I know that's why she said it.
She knew anyway & started yelling it out over & over again. I didn't know if I should give her what she wanted by going in & sympathising with her coz she said it or ignoring her.
I ended up leaving it til the next day & talked to her about it then.

---

Bjrose, from this post and your previous one it sounds like you and your DD have fallen into a pattern of behaviour that isn't working. At six, I doubt she is actively trying to upset you. I think it is more likely that this is how she gets your SOLE attention. I gather it's pretty hard to deal with the other kids when her tantrum is monopolising your time and attention. And siblings do compete for their parents love and attention, especially when they're close in age. I remember doing it with my two sisters (we were similarly aged apart to your kids).

It sounds like you try really hard to ignore her bad behaviour, but I wonder if you could pay more attention to her good behaviour? When you're really busy (as I imagine you would be with three kids!) it's easy to not notice that she's been quiet and well-behaved for 15 minutes, but it's probably when she deserves a special cuddle and a thank you for being Mummy's big girl when you needed to do something. And when she did do her homework as you had asked, despite the tantrum (and IMO it's much harder to calm down and then do the right thing than just doing it in the first place), did you tell her you were really pleased she had done as you asked?

I also think it's really easy for a particular child to be labelled as being the 'bad kid' or the 'good kid' and that generally makes the competition amongst siblings even worse. Jaz's behaviour is probably going to be viewed with less lenience because you're so used to looking out for when she misbehaves.

Anyway, don't mean to lecture - I'm certainly not an expert!! Thanks for so honestly sharing your story, it gives me (and no doubt others!) some great insight into how other people manage difficult situations in their families.

Cricket, could you give an example of something you'd use spanking for? If you don't want to that's of course totally fine - i just can't think of a scenario where i'd smack (i couldn't even think of one like the example you cited - disobeying a direct instruction, because i don't think i set DD up like that - like i say "Don't draw on the wall" while removing the crayon or putting the paper right in front of her, so i more redirect i guess?) and am interested in seeing the sort of thing you mean so i can think what i'd do. THis is such an interesting thread!

Also, i wanted to say before, about the parent/child becoming reflected in child/partner when the kids grows up - i DO think it's much more complicated than that kids will go and find someone "just like mum" or "just like dad" (depending on sexuality), but i also think that some things will be tolerated more, or get under the radar if they are things a kid saw in the family home when young. I don't think a child who is hit at home will PREFER a violent partner, not at all, but i do think they're more likely to TOLERATE one, kwim? And though i totally agree about adult relationships being different, most adults in fact DO use silent treatment, nagging, with-holding affection/sex/effort in the home/whatever to get their partner to comply with what they want, and MANY also use varying degrees of threatening behaviour/aggression/violence.

Bx

I don't agree with emotional blackmail either (which I gather is what your mum did to you, Ryn, and what your mother did to you, Bx) and have been the recipient of it with my XH. It was another method of discipline he used on my older children that now sees their relationship with him wavering.

My aim is to be as consistent without getting angry, or smacking, or blackmailing. When my DD recently described me to her BF, she said I was the most controlled person she knew. And that was when she was upset with me. If that's the worse my kids can say about me, I'm happy with that.

I am also the first person they come to when they're in trouble (and trust me they have had their fair share of trouble) and the one they come to for advice (even though they don't always take it). I will not lend them money but I will cry with them when they are geniunely hurt or upset. My DD also said that I was one person she knew would always be here for her. It's exactly the kind of parent I hoped to become, esp now my older kids are growing up and away from me and becoming young adults.

It's such a hard balancing act this caper we call parenting. And smacking, like you said Cricket, if it is effective, is only so at a small time of their lives - probably the first 4-5 years. Trust me when I say the challenges of teenagers far far outweigh the challenges of 1-5 year olds, and knowing what I do, that once they're teenagers, just about the only influence you have left with them is the values you gave them when they were young. So the values I wish to impart (no smacking, no CC, gentle discipline, no emotional blackmail, acceptance and mutual respect), to me, require their foundations built at a very very young age. It's why I've made the decision that it will never be one of my children's early memories that I ever raised a hand to them.

hoobley - I know I need mopre 1 on 1 time with Jaz, & I do try, but sometimes it is impossible. The last job DH did he was gone from 5.30am til 8.30pm. He is usually home around 7 or 8. But it doesn't leave much of a chance to get time alone with her.
I do try to sit with her while she does her homework & do it with her. Try. It's probably only once or twice a week I manage to stay there the whole time though. DH knows he needs more time alone with her too & tries really hard, but it's not easy with the hours he does.



There are times when he just makes things harder.
Jaz & DH are exactly the same.
In every way. DH has the same short temper & stubbornness. They both insist on having their own way every time. I honestly think it's a genetic trait. DH's father is apparently the same, but DH never knew him. They both need to be the center of attention. It's a very full on house at times!

My feelings towards Jaz have changed. So have DH's, but it's a bit more obvious with him. It hurts me so bad to think how much their relationship is suffering. I still love her as my child, but it's getting hard at times to remember just how much I do love her. I know I do & thats why I haven't walked into DOCs & said take her I can't do it. I admit that I have thought about it. It hurts so much even to admit that to myself. I've never let her know I've felt like that though.

I don't usually get up remembering things from the previous day, but it doesn't take long for things to start in the new day. Maybe I'll give her the wrong thing for breakfast or something. Then its all on again.

I have been saying how good she's been alot more, because I'm trying so much harder to relax & pay more positive attention to her. I just want to love her like I used to. Like I love the other too. I want my baby back.
I am trying really hard & I hope that it pays off. For a few days it definetly did.
When I first started to be more calm towards her & not losing it, she kept saying to me - Why are you being so nice to me? I told her because I love her & I want to keep being nice, but she's got to help out by being nicer to me. I think it lasted about 3 days. Once the initial shock of me being nice all the time wore off. I still try to be the same, but she isn't worried about my response any more. If I am 'nice' & just sit & talk to her about what she's done wrong, she thinks tht thats not so bad, so she does it again. As if the being 'nice' meant she got away with it & can do it again with out getting into trouble like she used to. The time outs are easier & the things taken away are soon forgotten about.

I'll give an example where we would smack (sorry cricket - i know you were asked LOL)

DS draws on the wall. I ask him "do we draw on walls?" he says "no, paper". So we go and get paper. He then continues to draw on the wall. He gets a warning. "DS.. we draw on paper. If you draw on the wall again, you're going to get a smack". (altho.. these days he gets sent to his room, or whatever he's playing with gets taken away). 5 mins later.. he's hidden himself in the loungeroom, doors closed, and is drawing on the wall in there. So, he gets that smack (or sent to his room. whatever was threatened). I then ask him to tell me why he was sent to his room, and he knows.. then he says sorry. We haven't had repeat incidents. In fact I've left some of the scribble on the wall, and he remembers that it was norty and tells me. So we can have little reminders of how its norty to draw on the wall... without him actually having to get into trouble for it again. LOL (never mind my laziness in not cleaning it off ;) )

ETA: just want to add that you really need to find what works with your child at the time. We didn't want to smack early on, but distraction never worked, and naughty corner didn't work, taking something off him didn't work. He just didn't care. A sharp tap on the hand tho made him pay attention. Now smacking has joined the ranks of "pfft.. I don't care" and sending him to his room or taking the toy off him DOES work. So smacking has played it's part for us and is still there occassionally.

bjrose, i think that letting this out will help, truly i do. You two (yourself and DD) are having some tough times, but you CAN come through it.

I think you might be misinterpreting the whole behaviour thing. DD asked you "why are you being nice to me?" because nice isn't the normal thing. You told her you love her and want to be nice. She doesn't know if it's true. She wants to know if you REALLY love her, if you REALLY want to be nice to her, so she's testing you. She's finding out what will happen if... Will mummy still love me? Will she still want to be nice to me? I really feel for you, it's SO hard to come through this sort of testing, but i KNOW you can do it!

Time together- do the other 2 nap? Do they nap when she's around? Honestly if i were you i'd start getting the younger 2 into bed by say 7 or half 7 so you can have a bit of one-on-one with her. I know, chaotic, especially without help (your DH's hours sound awful for you all :() but desperate times (your thoughts re: DOCS and her thoughts on wanting to die) call for desperate measures.

Can you head her off at the pass so to speak with her stubborness? Ask her at bedtime what she wants for breakfast and give her that? Or give her 2 choices in the morning and let her pick? Or sit down and ask her to help brainstorm a week of breakfasts and put them on the calendar so she has warning about what's coming? It might be simpler to have her fight HER than you. You give her 2 choices of breakfast and when she chucks a fit because she doesn't want whatshe picked you say "oh, that's a shame, maybe you need to think harder next time you have to pick" and leave it at that. She can eat it or not. She chose it. If she throws it on the floor she can pick it up or go to time out. IF she tanrtums during whichever she chose, well, that's a pity, maybe she should have made a different choice. The same with all the other things really - she DID eventually choose to do her homework so she copuld use the computer - she's smart, she's going to figure it all out sooner or later, kwim? Try not to put yourself in opposition to her, it only leads to more and more conflicts. Being calm and loving and "nice" REALLY DOES work - eventually. But a kid whose trust is broken needs to regain trust. A kid whose boundaries have moved needs to test new boundaries. A kid like Jaz, who is more needy and demanding and willful by nature needs to have the consistency PROVEN to herbefore she will rely on it. Gentle discipline doesn't always get you well-behaved kids, but it does get you well-adjusted adults.

It must feel like i'm sitting here churning out responses without having to LIVE it, and i KNOW how vast the gulf between saying and doing is hun, really i do. Have you thought of Triple P or other parenting classes for more hands-on advices?

Bx

Sorry Liz, just saw your post now! :)

In that situation i would say "DD we draw on PAPER" and give her paper. If she drew on the wall again i'd say "do you want to draw on paper or do you want to put the crayons away for now?" If she did it again i'd take her crayons away - i actually make HER put them in the tub and then i put the tub out of reach.

Bx

Hoobley, you have to much to offer. I really enjoy reading your posts, esp these one.

BJ - things WILL go ok for 3 days or so, then she will push the boundaries. So you stand firm. There may be tears and rending of garments but you stand firm. Then it will go ok for maybe 5 days, then she might push. Then you stand firm again.
The behaviour will take a little while to change, but she will actually feel more secure knowing what will happen. You ARE making progress, even if it doesn't feel like it and yes it is tiring.

I think kids are like vessels and some need to be filled more than others. DD was an "easy" child - set boundaries, little push from her to see if they are firm - then all was well.
DS - well he is lots the same as Jaz, he needs HEAPS more attention than the other two - HEAPS, but once he is filled he is fine. It takes a bit and I've learnt alot in the last year, but now he is easier to "fill". If that makes any sense at all.....

Thanks heaps you guys.
I will persist. I think we've already had the lowest of lows, so I should be able to get through it. Especially if the psycologist picks up a problem at school or what ever & we get that sorted out. Getting DH to try harder to control his temper with her will help too. He is trying, but like I said, at 26 he is still the same as her in that way, so it probably won't be perfect.
But hopefully all will be OK eventually. I'd love a quick fix, but I know it's not possible.
Thanks again to everyone.

You're welcome bjrose - i wish i were closer, i'd come over for the afternoon and take the littlies so you and Jaz could have a shopping trip or cafe visit together NO problem! :hug:

You're right about having been through the worst bit - you are REALLY doing it, Jaz is just going to keep checking, like Lulu says. I would really recommend the note-passing or diary sharing - i'm pretty sure i saw it once on an episode of supernanny with a very high-needs 7 or 8 year old who had a lot of smaller siblings and was feeling it hard. She had a box for "thoughts" and she would write down something every day about how the day went, at bedtime mum would read the note and they would talk about it. THe first day she wrote something like "It's not fair the other ones get all the attention and you don't even LIKE me" but by the time supernanny was leaving they'd begun to have mum-and-daughter time and the last note said "I really liked ice-skating with mummy, it was my best day EVER. I really love you mummy" I'm tearing up at the memory! LOL. It's always surprising how much someone being able to express their feelings, EVEN when it changes nothing concrete, makes. I guess it makes sense though - i hate paying the bills, doing the dishes and ironing, and telling people makes no difference, but i always feel a bit better after a whinge :)

I would get DH to make an effort but don't worry about it overly - you can't fix the world and make it perfect for her, no matter how much you want to. Her dad is her dad and they will find their way together somehow. You're responsible for your relationship with her, but not her realtionship with him. He also needs to go through what you are - asking himself what he wants and how to go about getting it.

Keep talking hun, we're all here when YOU need to destress. :hug:

Bx

Thankyou so much. It's so nice when complete strangers care about how I'm feeling. Although You probably know more about my life than most of my friends & family.

& you will probably be hearing a bit more from me reguarding her over the months.

Thanks again. You've got no idea how much it means to me. I have noone around except DH & SIL to talk about it. I can ring my mum any time I want, but she's 10 hours away, so can't really DO much.

:hug: I totally understand not having family around means the task of raising our kids falls entirely on our own shoulders much more than perhaps it should. Feel free to share with your cyber-friends any time!

Thanks Jennifer. It really helps to have all the unbiased oppinions & different pieces of advice.

DH & I are talking about him moving out for a while. That way we can get the one on one time with her. eg, she stays with him one night & the other 2 stay with him the next night.
It would also mean he isn't around her as much, so he might not lose his temper with her as easy.
I do realise that it might make things worse. If it does then he would come back home, its just hard to do the relaxed, calm thing when he can't. & he can't stay out of it when I'm trying.
I dunno if it will happen. Just an idea.