Should a 5 year old know better??? (May distress)

[Mum0809]

I was talking to my sister this morning and she told me my niece who is almost 5 years old got bubble wrap and covered her 15 month old sister's face up and held it there. One of the older kids caught her and she stopped. The bub couldn't breathe and was choking, coughing, crying and very distressed. I find this very worrying. She is also very disobedient, and is pretty uncontrollable. We were planning to move near them after christmas but I am very worried about having this behaviour around Harrison. I just can't stop thinking what if she hadn't been caught. I will NEVER leave ds alone with her for a second but it will be hard if they live close, I don't know if we should move somewhere else or not.

Should a 5 year old know better then to do that??? I believe they should but maybe I'm wrong. My poor baby niece .

[Aimz]

OMG that is terrible!!

I hope your neice has been taught a very big lesson about how dangerous it was for her to do that. I think one question I would want answered in this particular instance is how did she get her hands on the bubble wrap in the first place? I think some responsibility needs to lie with the person that left it within her reach.

I don't think this incident should affect something as large as a move for your family. As long as your neice has been disiplined and the parents are now more aware to put dangerous things like plastic out of her reach then I wouldn't be too concerned.

Kids are kids and I'm sure she didn't set out to hurt her sister. But I hope her parents have given her a long and hard lesson about how dangerous her actions were.

[Arimeh]

Errr.. we often have bubble wrap lying around here Amy - DS loves to stamp his feet on it and hear it pop

But he hasn't put it over his sister's face - yet!! LOL.... He did try to smother her yesterday with a towel after their bath because she was crying though

Kids are kids - and act like kids - but i would have thought that by the age of 5 they would have a sense of right and wrong - JMO of course - I'm totally not educated at all about the mental abilities of children at different ages!! LOL

I hope she never does it again

[~StarBright~]

my goodness.. how scary for your sister!!!

Part of me thinks that yes the 5 year old should at least know better than to continue doing anything that makes her sister cry- but maybe not that she would know the extent of the damage she may be doing... like she probably wouldnt know that her actions could very likely kill her sister if she hadnt been caught- but she should know not to try and even hurt her.

I would be a bit scared too if you end up spending a lot of time with them... I hope she doesnt do anything like that again to your little neice!!

[~Raven~]

I guess they should know better but then it depends if the parent has spoken to the child about it and if they understand the consequences. There is a difference between curiosity and spite and I'd want to find out why the child did it.
My older kids have put glad wrap over their faces and I gave them a stern talking too and it hasn't happened since. They understand death and we talked about how doing that can stop you from breathing and you could die etc.

[Jewel]

OMG!
So she didn't stop holding it there while the baby was distressed and upset???
If that's what happened... personally that seems as if she knew what was going on and was in a way wanting to hurt the other child.

By age 5 they should definately have the sense of right and wrong!

I'd be worried about leaving my children around her too.

[Mum0809]

Amy - She got it out of a moving box, that was out of reach but not out of her reach. She's a climber and can get anywhere.

Starbright & Raven - There is alot of jeaousy and she hurts her sister ALOT. It's a worry.

Mel - I think theres a big difference between almost 2 and almost 5.

Tenny - No she didn't. Bub couldn't breathe, she was distressed and upset when she could breathe again.

[Aimz]

It does worry me that she kept the plastic there after her sister showed clear signs of distress and this would be something that would worry me as a parent. I don't think it's a problem to have things like bubble wrap for kids to play with (I used to play with it too!) but only if your kids know the dangers of plastic or you are present in the room. Obviously in this case they were unaware that she even had it.

I wouldn't leave her alone with the baby if jealousy is causing her to harm sister. I also wouldn't leave her alone with your kids either. But as I said, I don't think it's cause enough for you not to move. She will grow out of the jealousy thing - my brother used to hurt me all the time when I was a baby and by the time I was three and could play we were best friends. I think it comes down to heavy supervision and lots of lessons about playing nice and being kind.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Before I got to your last post, HP, I was thinking "what's going on for a 5 year old to do this?", rather than the "how was she 'punished'","what kind of 'discipline' does she get" sorts of questions. Punishment and discipline do more to make the parents feel better than actually address the driving issues here. This situation needs to be responded to sensitively and with utmost loving reassurance - reacting angrily will push the underlying issues further underground and foster more of the resentment that seems to be there.
To me, it sounds like it stems from something that's been going on for her for a while that hasn't been dealt with at its root - it sounds like she's been trying to say something for a while and been misunderstood, overlooked or her grievances not treated with the respect and empathy she requires. It could be none of this, but these are my first impressions.
I feel that as long as you can provide her with some loving attention and let her know that you care about how she's feeling, and when she's over you involve her in what you're doing or involve yourself in what she's doing, you won't have anything to worry about. And it might even provide an outlet for attention that she needs (I don't like the attitude adults have that children needing attention should get the opposite...we hate that for ourselves as adults!).
As I said, just my thoughts with the information you've given

[Mum0809]

To me, it sounds like it stems from something that's been going on for her for a while that hasn't been dealt with at its root - it sounds like she's been trying to say something for a while and been misunderstood, overlooked or her grievances not treated with the respect and empathy she requires. It could be none of this, but these are my first impressions.
g attention

I think this is alot of the problem. Before bub came along she was mummy's baby. Now she isn't getting the attention she was used to. She get lots of toys, treats ect but not has much of mummy's time .

[Je$$_84]

I have a DS who is very uncontrollable. I know the frustration of teaching right from wrong but them not following. My DS is almost 4 he has tried putting a blanket on DD but i just dont leave them unsupervised EVER... If i need to go to the loo i put DD in her cot or somwhere where DS cant get into too much mishcief with her. I would never forgive myself if something happened. I would be concerned if it wasnt a once off. Some kids minds dont always see sense sometimes. I think setting boundaries is important but i have found when kids play there sense of what is right and wrong can be affected.

Also with a child who is (what some may call hyperactive) very overactive and easily excitable you really need to set boundaries and constantly tll them what is unacceptable. Discipline doesnt always work but a nice chat about what can happen and so on can be a good help. I think that mum and Dad need to sit down and find out why she would want to hurt baby... (she may not FULLY understand the consequenses and if she does then they need to discuss it and make her feel like she's loved and not replaced. I think alot of kids when other siblings come along feel REPLACED...

I don't think this incident should affect something as large as a move for your family

totally agree

[curl]

I was horrified when I read your post.

Your niece is clearly very jealous of her little sister and is acting out against her. At 5 she would know that she's doing something wrong but perhaps not the full extent of the damage she could have done.

Unfortunately, sibling jealousy is a very common issue when a new bub comes along and again I find a 'but'. The 'but' being, she should have gotten over most of these issues by now as her little sister has been around for a while. I agree with some of the other posts that she hasn't been getting heard and this is probably the reason she's behaving this way. I found that each time in our home that a new baby came along that if DH and I make time to spend with each of our girls one on one it reduced the jealousy a notch. Story time is a fantastic way of spending time with the older child as usually the younger child is already asleep in bed and during naps I've found that craft activities help cement the bonds with my older child (now children).

I wouldn't stop these issues from influencing your move, however, I would be keeping a very eagle eye on your niece whenever she is near your son. Have you spoken with your sister about your concerns or is it too confronting for you?

Curl

[paradise lost]

I was not horrified. I thought "we have to be careful with the baby" "the baby is precious" and then i could quite easily see why a 5 year old sibling, having seen an adult wrapping precious or delicate things in bubble wrap, would do the same to a baby she has in the past hurt and been told constantly is delicate and must be treated with care. At EIGHT i had the urge to put my hand over the mouth of a crying baby when i was told to "go stop the baby crying" - i didn't know what to do and literally-speaking covering the baby's mouth seemed to be the initial way to stop the crying. I was not in ANY WAY trying to hurt the baby, if i'd been told "rock the baby" i would have, but "stop the baby crying" is a not very good guidance for a child...

It is entirely possible she went to wrap the baby's head to make it "safe" as no doubt she's been told many times how careful she should be with the baby. And when baby began to cry she tried to wrap tighter to stop the crying.

Does a 5 year old understand suffocation? No. Does a 5 year old understand DEATH? No. Even 5 year olds who have SEEN a parent or sibling die in front of them will ask for them for several weeks, even if it's not their first enoucounter with the concept of death. Death is forever, forever is as long as you can remember and for most 5 year olds that's about a month.

Jealousy is a major problem, especially for older kids getting their first younger sibling. It's something i will no doubt face myself. For that little girl her mum and dad were her WHOLE world and now they have another baby. How would any of us feel if our DH's/DW's got another wife/husband to come live with us!? That's the level of betrayal she is feeling right now. Of course the baby needs to be protected from harm, but her poor little heart is pretty bruised too. A little understanding goes a LONG way.

I would make your move closer and when you have her over use the time to highlight all the good things you see in her, tell her how great she CAN be. If she is naughty she will likely only hear so from her (no doubt exhausted) mum and dad, and ANY attention is good at that age. If being naughty gets her more of the attention she desperately needs, why would she try being good? SHe sounds like a very high needs kid, i have one myself and they are HARD HARD work, but they can be so much fun if they are kept connected and with their needs met.

Bx

[Mum0809]

I think that mum and Dad need to sit down and find out why she would want to hurt baby... (she may not FULLY understand the consequenses and if she does then they need to discuss it and make her feel like she's loved and not replaced. I think alot of kids when other siblings come along feel REPLACED...

totally agree

I think thats a great idea. thanks Jess

Curl - too confronting. I think she would take it the wrong way.

Hoobley - thanks for your reply & lots of things to think about.