Do I understand right that the link is to a locked page? So the FF support area is locked to those who aren't signed in? Was this always the case?:
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Do I understand right that the link is to a locked page? So the FF support area is locked to those who aren't signed in? Was this always the case?:
I like both the articles! I think its time that as women and especially as mums that we all try to support eachother regardless of how we feed our children!! We all deserve the right to feel validated and supported in what we do.
As someone who has done both - I am guilty of saying alot of the things in the first article to new mums. Breastfeeding with DS started off a little shaky (thrush cracked nipples and bad attachment), but i persisted and fed him for nearly 16 months. I would tell everyone how great it was!! And I never outwardly crticised a formula feeding mum, but i did think that some hadnt "bothered" trying to breast feed or where formula feeding for the wrong reason.
Then i had DD, for the first few months she fed great, again attachment issues (big nipples like a previous poster) but we got through them.. then at about 4 months my supply dropped, i tried the fenigreek (sp) I drank more water, I called the ABA and didnt get much help. I struggled for weeks and meanwhile DD was hungry, lossing weight and not wee-ing. So instead of being sooo persistant in my beleif to her detriment... i bought some formula. She is now a happy formula fed baby, and while i curse that for me the convieniance of Breast feeding is gone (it is sooooooo much easier to pull out a boob when ever where ever than to make a bottle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) I no longer look at Formula feeding mums the same as I did, and its a lesson i learnt and i hope to grow from, and i will be making an effort to NOT repeat any of the things on the list from the first article to a new or expecting mum ever again!!!
Both articles are great! I think they are down to earth and practical and I do agree that it is important to respect how women feel about the issue and meet them where they are at.
i cant believe that there is so much intollerance in this world that people actually say these things to poor mums!
far our being a mum is hard enough without us knocking each other over the choices we believe are the best for our kids!!
People have the right to think these things, but they do not have the right to say these things out loud to others. It undermines their choices .
Although i dont agree or like some of the choices that people make with their kids, its their right and I thank goodness that we live in a world that we can have these choices. Lets just get over ourselves and get on with supporting each other!!!!
Intolerance goes both ways - some people dont tolerate people who just don't know what better to say. Especially when people haven't walked in your shoes, depending on their upbringing, experience or education - they don't know what it's like. Most people say things not as a judgement, but they genuinely want to help. Understanding that it's not about you, its about them, is very important. As a society I think there is far too much going on about finding someone to blame, so we can feel better. For some people it's so difficult to see that this could be a person who wants to say the right thing, or give you something that could help you feel better... but when its not what you want to hear, you judge them as being a certain way.
You can always stay in the FF section if you just want to talk to, hear from, support or be supported by FF mums. Thats why it was started up.
LOL that's pretty much all that gets said on here!:
Love it! THANK YOU Tinks for posting! hopefully some people will think twice about their comments! and realise that BFing is not the be all and end all, and that they are no better than FFing mums!
I'm proud to say i am both :)
No.4 is the one i agree with the most! I am so over hearing that! when in all honesty............. Pftt.
Like I said earlier, I am happy for you to move this to a more suitable forum.:
i like the 2nd article HEAPS also! would be great to hear more of those things! as a Student Midwife i will be using them :)
https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...t-best-120301/
This was posted in 2009.
Like it so much i have shared the love on my facebook page.
FWIW - currently still feeding my 16month old...
Hmmm Kelly - I can't understand the need to post that in here? I might be missing something tho.
1. “Everyone can breastfeed if they try hard enough.”
>> I always post that not everyone can breastfeed, interventions cause breastfeeding issues and there are psychological issues to consider.
2. “Formula is poison.”
>> I don't call it poison but I do post articles that show increased risks of using it. Its not poison.
3. ”Moms should be smart enough to see through formula marketing.”
>> I never say this either - thats why we get so heated about Nestle here as they take ADVANTAGE not that mums are too stupid to understand. Marketing is designed to prey on feelings and emotions so you buy.
4. “Breast is best.”
>> See my last posted post in this thread, from 2009, its always been my stance.
5. “Formula-feeding moms are lazy.”
>> Never said that.
6. ”Moms who use formula don’t love/value their babies as much as moms who breastfeed.”
>> Always say that no mother would ever want to hurt her babies, we always make decisions and choices that we think will be best for them at the time.
7. “Take some fenugreek!”
>> Only as part of other suggestions (including seeing an IBCLC) if someone asks for suggestions to produce more milk.
8. “You could have breastfed if _____.”
>> Never said it either.
9. “You’ll be able to breastfeed. It comes naturally, so don’t worry about it.”
>> Never, it doesn't.
10. “Facts don’t hurt. You make yourself feel guilty.”
>> If anything I do say that we create our own feelings, but thats my own belief about everything in life not just feeding. I dont pull it out especially for feeding discussions.
To be fair Minny, I can pretty much guarantee EVERY mother/father on BB is still feeding their 16 month old. Whether or not they are breastfeeding, bottle feeding, solids, whatever...:
MN - one of the points of the article is people say breast is best. That doesnt happen here and as a whole, its happening less, and the ABA actively dont use that phrasing and educate as to why they dont.
Kelly, you seem to have interpreted this as a direct post at yourself, or the site, which I didn't, don't know about anyone else. I thought the original post was a pretty good summary of how women who ff may view the way bf is portrayed by society in general, not just you or your site.
I really like both articles also. I would consider myself pro-BFing (choose that path myself so a bit hard to say I'm not!) but I really get very annoyed at what some BFing advocates say and the first article really sums that up well. I agree to a lesser degree with some points but overall I love the gist of it.
Sometimes I just want to slap the ABA and yell 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegar', I think they need to wake up to themselves. I know of someone who had terrible supply issues and was pretty much shown the door when they tried to comp feed. Now how is that supportive or helpful? That persons outcome could have been waaaaaaay different if they were shown more of the attitude of the second article.
I am pleased to see that the line I take with friends is very well summed up in the second article. Just wanted to say that there are lots of us out there, we may not be as loud and in your face as the more extreme advocates but we are out there and we think you are all doing a great job.
As for the point about saying how difficult it can be, I am a bit torn on this one. I think different people respond to different things, I have heard LOTS of people say they wish some one told them it could be hard so that as soon as a hurdle came up they didn't automatically put themselves in the basket of people that just can't BF, but at the same time other people take that warning entirely differently. It is so hard to come up with a message that is concise and to the point and accommodates the different responses people can have. So as I said, I am pretty torn on that point, but the option in the second article is pretty good for mine.
Hmm, ok.
haha Fair call N2l!
There are numerous posts where people have said they see all those things here all the time.
I've made this group visible to unregistered/unlogged in people also. If you have any other suggestions, feel free to ask, thats what we're here for. Ideally in the suggestions thread as we dont always read everything, or continue to read threads.
Thank you Kelly :)
OK, see I interpreted that to be the site members posting such comments in threads and not you specifically.:
Im not sure where you are trying to go with this? Didnt say "what" i was feeding my 16month old...although the ticker makes it obvious...:
Im not the first person to say im a breastfeeder but like the article, i have also shared the other article as well....
We try to make sure people post fairly and along the same lines. I don't see these things here much anymore, but then I can't read everything and we have so many posts it is hard to keep up. I do believe though people here genuinely want to help.
Even if they don't, then we can gently respond, without launching into attack and anger, to help them understand others and where they are coming from. This thread is obviously going to help explain the other side to them. That way there will be kindness and understanding without bitterness and anger, and any divide occurring.
Anyways, all sorted.
That's exactly why I posted it.:
Breastfeeders may not read the formula threads.
Well, it seems many have and commented.
I've also had feedback and pm's from breastfeeders who liked the article.
Well, it would have been easier if one stayed within the topic of the thread instead of pointing out divides...but thats just my opinion and yes...I choose to feel that way.
^^^^ agree with delphmoon
Agreed delphmoon. Sadly that's how many threads of this kind are going lately :(
Happy to leave it here then. Just wanted to help so that more read it. Enjoy.
Okay, I wasn't going to get into the nitty gritty because this is the FF forum but it seems this conversation has opened up to BFers too. I think I could be perceived as doing No.1 and I've recently said similar things in other threads. My intention is never, ever to imply the mother herself gave up too easily or to imply that EVERY mother can BF but I do feel that there is such bad support out there that many mothers could have BFed even though they say they couldn't.
I was told I couldn't BF. I was told I had "done all I could" and it was time to switch to formula. But with better support we overcame it. I have found IRL when I've shared the BFing struggles I've had many of my friends who also struggled 9and ended up fulltime FF) have come back later and asked me what I did and what worked. I'm always conscious of saying that these solutions worked for MY situation and they would need to find what works for them but I try to let everyone know that I think they could successfully BF.
I get the impression on this forum though that this approach isn't liked and telling a FF mum she could have BF is wrong... and this thread says so too. So, is this just a personal thing and I've been lucky that my RL friends have been more open to the discussion or do you think I'm really just annoying everyone and I didn't realise?
I think saying to a mother you could have BF if she tried harder (because it worked for me) will quite probably upset her...you are essentially telling her she failed.:
I think a better approach is to say if you are likely to try BF your next baby you may try these things to hopefully get a little further.
So instead of making her feel like a failure you are giving her hope she can do it next time.
Just a thought
I always find it interesting how many people breastfeed subsequent bubs once they've found the right support network and resources. This in itself shows that many (yes, not ALL) could well have breastfed given the right circumstances and support. So I think said in the right way, it'd be taken in the right way. I think it would be very sad to tip toe around someone who ended up FFing their first and not encouraging them to try different things or seeking out different help next time for fear of saying the 'wrong' thing :/:
I think it goes both ways that we all need to watch what we say and how we say it. I much prefer the 2nd article of what TO say, and fwiw I thought posting the original article in the ff section was a bit strange, considering it really is aimed at breastfeeders? Pretty sure it's not written in a 'stick it to BF'ers' way to support FF'ers. It's a reminder to watch what we say when we're trying to encourage breastfeeding, or making suggestions of things to try to keep breastfeeding on track.
I agree with you Meow :):
Some people (Im not suggesting you :)) have the impression that FF mum want advice on how to BF and that sometimes this advice is offered so quick without consideration to the FF Mum.:
For instance if a woman told me she had a C section it would be rude and presumptious to say "Did to try doing this or that..it worked for me...did you push this way or breathe that way..." YKWIM.
In my experience, the mums that are forced into formula feeding (as opposed to the ones who choose to FF) have usually had a history with the lactation consultant, the maternal nurse and the GP.
:)
I don't get how the OP could be debateable. Kelly thats the silliest thing I think I've heard you say. Maybe you should read it again.
With DD1 it honestly did not cross my mind that breastfeeding would be difficult. Everything I read told me it was natural & that everyone can do it. So when she was born & struggled through intense pain for 6 weeks I was really upset when I made the decision to formula feed her. After 6 weeks of my MCHN telling me everything looked fine & leaving it at that, I thought I had no choice.
When DD2 came along things were ok. But when she was 4 weeks old I got thrush & gave up thinking that was the end of it. I alsso felt that after not feeding DD1 for long, that it would be unfair to give what she missed out on to DD2.
When pregnant with DS I found out about lactation consultants & read up on BF problems through BB & was informed. I felt I could succeed if I really tried & I did. I fed him for 2 years. It took 6 weeks of the same intolerable pain I had with DD1, but I got through.
I never considered anything else for DD3. It took 10 whole weeks of struggling for us to get past the problems. She was the first one I didn't have a tin of FF in the cupboard for. Lucky I didn't too, coz 10 weeks of struggling was really hard!
To me, personally, FF would've been easier. To just put a bottle in my babies mouth, rather that have to curl my toes with tears in my eyes, at every feed would've been easier, but I knew in the long run I'd get there & BF would be easier.
Most mothers have enough guilt without people adding to it, weather they mean to or not.
exactly:
i would never have even looked at this thread as I dont use formula, and i was obilivious to the fact that people have a go at mothers who FF rather than b/feed!!! Its no ones business except theirs and although i do have opinions, I ensure that my opinions reflect my choices, no body elses!!!
glad this topic has stayed nice!!!! LOL
I was in tears when I saw this post this morning. I have heard every single one of these... And more.
I was called lazy. I was told I was letting my son down. I was told my son was never going to thrive and it was all my fault. I was told I must have wanted it enough cause if I did it would happen.
I even had one very nasty SCN midwife who decided to "punish" me by not letting me touch or pick up my son and who took him away from me into another room to feed him. This happened 2 nights in a row. Luckily my sobbing alerted another midwife who helped me make a formal complaint to the hospital.
I have also had people follow up "so when are you having #2?" with "so are you going to try harder to feed the next one?"
There is such a stigma out there, and having it rammed down your throat when you're already fragile & guilt-ridden doesn't help.
And as for the list of what BF advocates SHOULD say, it's simple. One & only point. Unless you have that person's full story/history and unless they ask your advice, SAY NOTHING!
Thanks again Tinks for posting! *mwah*
Well said :clap::
I LOVE this article !
Thanks for sharing Tinks :D
Really?! That's ****ing awful. You know what, that's not about breast feeding/formula feeding, that's about certain individuals being nasty.:
For me, support/advice/advocacy of breastfeeding is all about supporting mums and babies, because they are so often let down by the people who are supposed to be helping them.
ETA - and I prefer the second list because it's about positive statements, rather than what not to say (which really should be pretty obvious)
I prefer positive statements too...however its not obvious to some people on what not to say...I have experienced it before...even here on BB. :):