Sometimes hard being 'that' friend.

[~Raven~]

I have to say I'm one of those friends who would be very blunt. There is no sugar coating what is best for the baby. She sounds like all her wants are quite selfish and immature and being a mother is about putting a little person first regardless. She definitely sounds like she could benefit from a person who isn't her friend (and perhaps a bit older, like her mums age) telling her the reality of it.

sent from my watzamajig so may not make sense....

I don't think it's fair to say she is selfish. Her attitude could come from how she was brought up or the parenting influences around her. I grew up hearing how I was shut in my room at 2 weeks old to teach me a lesson and it didn't occur to me how wrong that was until I had my own baby in my arms.

[Miss_Dee]

I agree, I don't think it's fair to say she's selfish. Until I did my own research, I thought CIO for example was a GOOD thing. Not because I was selfish but because that's all I'd experienced. Smacking and the threat of smacking was what I grew up with and was what I planned to do, until I researched and saw there are other effective ways to discpline and teach children what is appropriate. My parents were far from selfish and sacrificed so much so me and my sisters never went without. We always felt loved and cared for. They did the best with the knowledge they had, just like this young girl I'm sure is doing the best with the knowledge she has. That's why I think encouraging her to expand on that knowledge is a good idea. Had I not expanded my own knowledge, I too would be planning to make 'selfish' decisions once my child arrives.

[Sagres]

Firstly I wouldn't discount the difference in her attitude when the baby actually arrives. You know before you've had your first baby and before you've felt that rush of hormones and held that little body who is totally dependent on you, you do think all sorts of crazy things. But this does change for a lot of women. Women go from certain they will take 6 weeks maternity leave to actually having a year off just because it is so different when the time comes. So I guess don't assume she will continue in the same track she is heading now.

Other than that I would answer questions saying what you would do 'when I was faced with X, I did Y, because I felt Z'. Like 'when DD was a newborn I fed her overnight as she demanded it, because their little tummies are so small they can't keep themselves going for a whole night without a refill', that kind of thing. Personally I wouldn't quote statistics because I know if some one did it to me it wouldn't help! When in doubt I always go for the old 'lots of my friends have found XYZ' because it doesn't sound preachy, just observational You know, something like 'lots of my friends with babies the same age have found that even if they did CIO the baby was still hungry/wet/hot/cold/in pain and woke up 15 minutes later and the cycle continued, they said it was quicker and easier just to do a feed/nappy change/feed/cuddle, cover the basics and have a content sleeping baby'.

Other than that I would try to encourage her to listen to and trust her own instinct. The fact is as mothers we are driven by instinct to pick up that crying baby and feed it and to hold a baby close and comfort it. It is when we let other ideas and interference that we stop listening to that instinct and start using 'rules'. I would try to instill in her that her immediate instinct when her baby is crying is probably the right one - attend to what ever is making it cry.

On the becoming a clingy baby thing - I dunno that sounds a bit like there is something underlying she is worried about, like she doesn't feel comfortable with affection or close contact or she is scared about being a bad mother and want lots of other people to be around to help. I think I would try and work out if there is something underlying and try to break that down a bit, but other than that I would perhaps discuss that the cause and effect of child behavior is way more complex than just no BF-not clingy and there are many many contributing factors to what could cause a child to be clingy. Or not factors at all, they could just be born that way, BUT the opposite can often be true, if a baby or toddler feels like they aren't getting the attention they need they will often cling to whatever attention they do get and NEVER let go. If they feel like they get enough attention and are secure in the knowledge that mum is there for them IF something bad happens, they will more likely to confidently go out into the world to explore and learn.

[nothing2lose]

Well said Raven. I also think it is perfectly acceptable to be immature at 18 because, well, you are immature at 18!

I think all you can do is offer advice when asked for it PZ, perhaps tempered with a caveat along the lines of "my parenting style/beliefs seem to be very different from what you believe but here is what i'd do....."

I also think there is a difference between giving advice about safety issues and parenting choices or theories. If someone told me outright my theories/beliefs/attitudes were wrong I'd be inclined to tell them to get knotted and think they were being a judgmental biatch. Especially if I was 18. It's partly in the delivery of the message and partly in the content (ie. Which "wrongs" you seek to right) that makes the difference.

[misty]

I think one of the ways to talk to her about breastfeeding, is maybe to point out that breastfeeding consumes more calories and thus make it easier to loose the baby weight.

Otherwise, all you can do is be there to offer advice when its asked for or needed. It is hard to bite your tongue when you think the person is doing something wrong; but unless it is dangerous, I think you do need to only talk when they are being receptive or when asked. Having said I would personally have to say something about CIO / CC, I do believe that those methods can be used successfully, but NOT before 6mths old!!! Certainly not with a newborn! That is neglect with a newborn!
But at the end of the day, you cann't be responsible for others decisions.

[AngelPants]

as i said in a further post, oops it came off really harsh! i am just going on experience of friends who had kids at that age, none of whom had changes of heart on arrival their babies.

[little_O]

Sorry for being ignorant but what is CIO and CC?

[Miss_Dee]

Cry it out and controlled crying

[little_O]

Thanks! Wow I couldn't let dd do that at such a young age, she only cries for reason.

It is true as pp have said, you change your stance on things after the birth. That being said I've been quite sick since dd's birth so my dreams of being an organized active mum have been on hold.

She'll have to work that out for herself, but maybe when things aren't working how she envisioned after the baby is born you can offer the support and more balanced view

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

PZ, you want to give advice for the best reasons - because you believe you will help a mother have realistic expectaions and help her child.

Personally, I never liked "you should" advice. But I loved hearing stories about "When my child was that age I did XYZ", even when XYZ was completely different to what I planned to do/was doing/did.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Whatever you do, as TFB has intimated, don't 'should'! 'Could' is much better, because it opens it up to the listener that it's something they can decide to take up (informed choice), rather than being prescribed a course of action, which no-one likes 'Shoulding' also implies that the person must come into line with the values of the speaker, and that's why 'shoulds' sit so badly with people, because we all come from such different value bases, and 'should-ing' someone tells them that you think their values are wrong, instead of letting them evaluate which values need adjusting to achieve a desireable goal.
Make sense? You'll get so much further by changing your language, because when you choose your language carefully you are automatically changing your approach to a more considerate one that cares about the person you're speaking to

[Deedles]

All I can say is that if my SIL didn't inform me of the importance of BF'ing, wraps/slings, birth and well pretty much everything I would be a totally different parent right now!
I know I find it hard sometimes still sleeping with my 4.5 and 2.5 yr old and other lil things but I wouldn't have it any other way.

So I would talk to her and as others have said put her onto some websites, books to have a look at. At least then she will have the knowledge and then still choose what she wishes to do.

[Miss.September]

I would always offer honest advice. That's probably the best gift you can give her. And she will do what she wants with it. I don't believe being a young mum has any bearing on it, but rather a young-minded mum. If she's young in a maturity level, then the advice might be ignored and even ridiculed (seen this first hand recently). Only you will know how she will take it. But it wouldn't stop me from offering an "alternate" suggestion to her ideas.

[Melbournemumma]

I'd find a good book for her, like Pinky McKay.
She has invited YOUR experience and knowledge xxx

I was going to say exactly the same thing Mayaness. I reckon get her a good book that supports some of the more gentle approaches. I did this with a friend of mine. They had been given one book and I gave them another as an alternative point of view. In the long run, all parents want to do the best for their child, some just aren't quite aware of just how damaging some decisions could be.

Big Lily. It's not easy sometimes, but be assured that if she's come to you for advice she obviously respects you and want an honest opinion.

[Butterfly Dawn]

My sister got my kaz cookes book. She is so funny and down to earth but with loads of good info, resources and support people info.
Up the duff was funny as for being pregnant and kid wrangling is awesome.

They are super lucky to have you as a friend

Sent from my Galaxy with the barefoot princess covering me in kisses, so please forgive the mistakes

[PumpkinZulu]

Thought I would update

We had a good chat and I used a lot of the advice given here. At first it was frustrating, as she was asking for my advice but then dismissing what I said, eg "Is pumping hard? It's no different to breastfeeding right?" So I used my own experience. I said that I found that pumping is very different, and a lot more hard work than BF. I said pumping does come with the greater risk of weaning earlier, problems with milk etc, but in the same breath, some people take to it well and can exclusively pump for the duration their children require their milk To be met with "It will be easier than breastfeeding because I'll have time to myself." But that's okay, that's her opinion, we'll see. It may be the case for her, who knows.

Anyway, on Thursday (36+2) she messaged me saying she was having back pain and other prelabour symptoms. I said it definitely sounded like her body was warming up. Friday night/early Saturday morning, she messaged me with symptoms that sounded like she was definitely in labour. She gave birth to her little girl last night at 10pm at 36w4d She's in scn for 24hrs, then she'll hopefully be given the all clear to go home. She did have a bit of a hard time (in her words, baby had the cord around her neck which the doctor said would mean she'd need to be vacuumed out, so she has a fair few stitches poor thing) but she's so proud and I'm so excited for her! What a whirlwind. Glad for all the advice here, I'm much more confident in saying things fairly and tactfully and leaving it at that.

[Beach Mama]

Congrats to your friend PZ! I read this thread originally and everyone had posted what I thought - I use a lot of "this is what I do" in dealing with friends who deal with things differently to me. I have found over time that as much as I want the best for MY child and do my best to be the best parent ever, my friends are in the same boat wanting to do what is best for their kids. If they ask for advice I give it honestly but otherwise I don't really interfere ITMS! xoxo Good luck to your friend, she sounds lucky to have you!!