How can breastfeeding be seen as normal if....

[beckles]

gigi great point about the environment too! oscar has one 'baby' made of cloth this is the breastfeeding doll i got from OS and one made of cloth but has a soft plasticy head, he loves them both one he can breastfeed and one he can put the baby to the doll's breast.
beckles

[~Flossie~]

Gigi - you have just made my think of ALL the plastic toys my DD has.. omg...

[Trillian]

Bit OT, Aurora, I read Dolly too from age 11 and while it never bothered me in terms of body image cause I was and still am absolutely the furtherest thing from a fashionista a person could be, I will not let my girls ever read it the way it is now LOL

[Taia's Mum]

Well I played with toy dolls and gave them bottles when I was a young girl - and when I had my baby daughter I breastfed her. I don't think there is a connection there (that if a young girl bottle feeds a toy that she will bottle feed her baby) - I think it's about education when the girl is pregnant or old enough to have a baby.

[Bathsheba]

Umm... my 12yo reads Dolly... she bought the latest issue with her pocket money last week her friends at school were giving her old copies anyhow... what could I do? I'm not happy about it BUT I flick through them and try to point out areas of concern... it's all you can do...

[Rouge]

I have to say I think its wonderful that so many of you feel so passionately about this, and about what influences toys have on children. I wish I had more staying power!

Like you bath, I choose my battles wisely. I try more to explain things and explain what is ok and what's not iykwim. For example Paris has bratz she went on and on about getting bratz so we got them for her. Many people I know refuse to buy their children bratz because they are ****ty etc But we chose one that was more tasteful and we also had big chats about the clothing, and she agrees that the clothes that bratz wear aren't very nice on girls but its just a doll so its ok. And you know what she hardly plays with them and she's over them iykwim. Doesn't want every single thing possible of bratz. So at 5 she's passed a phase that with a battle could have been prolonged. Same went for the princess phase she was obsessed with princess from about 2-4 and we would often sit down and have chats about how girls are strong and how they don't need to be "rescued" by boys etc (one of the things I love about the barbie movies is that the girls are head strong LOL). But then her favourite princess was Belle who was very head strong and in the end was the rescuer Now she's going through an alternative phase, and has totally ditched all girly things and prefers skulls and punkish gettup and we go with it. She knows what boundaries she has. For example I won't buy her tarten mini skirts unless she wears proper legging pants underneath and I won't buy some because to me they are too mini LOL! Same goes for the undergarments she doesn't own bras because as she agrees she doesn't have breasts yet. And I won't be buying them when she's 8 either. I think for me its about helping her to become active in choice, allowing her to see things for what they are rather than banning them altogether. We are big talkers and we discuss everything, from birth, to relationships, to fashion to everyday mundane stuff. I hope I'm doing the right thing, so far its proved to be good. We don't have tantrums over boundaries, nor does she try to sneak things or resent me for the choices we've made. I guess I just want to try and teach her to question things on her own rather than go with the crowd. And I'll do the same with Seth when the super hero phase starts which I'm sure it will. I've kind of gone on a tangent, but I hope I'm coming across well. I guess this is why the bottle thing doesn't phase me.

*hugs*
Cailin

[Trillian]

Cailin, I refuse to buy Bratz because they are the ugliest dolls I have ever seen LOL (sorry, OT again - will stop now)

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I grew up with my sis having dolls with bottles (milk and juice) and seeing only FF after toddlerdom - I breastfeed. When I was 2 I convinced my Dad chocice and chips was a proper meal - OK, he believed me, but I no longer do! As a teen I thought cloth nappies were the mankiest thing in the world... washing poo! DS is now a happy chappy in a cloth nappy. DS watches the grand prix, but also knows/is told about driving safely.

Please give women the right to have brains and develop from what they believed as a toddler/child/teen!

[MantaRay]

My last point
I doubt a 3 year old even knows what Formula is - my DD doesnt walk past the baby aisle and look up at the tins on the shelves and go oh look formula Thats what I give Baby Annabelle

LOL, today we were walking down the baby aisle of the pharmacy warehouse place. We walk past the nappies and Jack points to them and says "for babies". Then we walk past the formula tins and he points and says "for cats"! I'm not quite sure where the for cats comes from, but I guess it shows your point Caro.

[Aranah]

This is when I'm very glad my daughter is a total tom boy and hates dolls (and dresses and skirts and princesses and fairies lol). That;s more about the type of dolls there are rather than a bottle thing, I honestly wouldn't be worried if she did like dolls and they came with a bottle. She sees me BF and it is normal to her.

She draws pictures of pythons and spiders and hugs a stuffed cobra in bed. I occaisonally attempt a fight with her about a nice dress or skirt someone has bought her and even try and bribe her to wear it, but she refuses.

She's chosen her own style, I have to admit I'm not very feminine or dress up, but she's been around enough women that do and her friends are all into that stuff, but she still chooses the things she likes which happen to be very non-girly.

So I honestly don't think that in the end that if little girls are exposed to bottle fed dolls that it's going to affect their feeding choices as adults. My daughter chooses her own uninfluenced style at 6 years old, and I'm sure as a mother that she will make her own choices about feeding her babies.

[paradise lost]

I'm pretty sure my dolls came with bottles but i also remember BFing them. I was the youngest so no baby brothers or sisters to see feeding and copy... Think a few aunties etc. that were around me BF and that's why.

I think, on the whole, i wouldn't necessarily buy DD a baby doll with all the accessories because i'd far rather teach her to sew and knit (as my mother taught me) and make her own things for her dollies. It has made a big difference to my choices with DD, being able to make EXACTLY what i want and not having to worry about getting to the shops to find it.

I kind of see how bottles could be seen as harmless or harmful but it depends on your lifestyle. I would NOT let my children play with guns. Possibly one of the brightly coloured super-soakers which bear almost zero resemblance to a gun, but CERTAINLY not anything handgun shaped, whatever it shot. I would only buy knives which came with one of those cooking play sets where the fruit/veggies are velcroed together and one uses the plastic kitchen knife to "chop" them, never a sword or a dagger or anything like that. When it comes to real knives i will do as my parents did - when she is 12 or 13 i will buy her a good quality swiss army camping knife and teach her how to use it responsibly. Respect for such things is important and i do think playing flippantly with them is kids changes how we see things.

I DO think it's important kids are exposed to BFing. I have a friend who's neice, aged 7, had NEVER heard of BFing. The first time i met her DD was with her daddy and i had my breastpump with me. I let her sit by me while i pumped a feed and put it in the fridge. I saw her again a few days later and this time i had DD with me. When i said i thought DD was hungry the little girl offered to get the pump for me - even having SEEN the milk coming out of my breasts she didn't graps that a baby didn't need a bottle!

I don't think it is in any way "too far" for a child to pretend-BF a doll even if its mouth does move. What's wrong with that? If BFing is a natural thing, what is "wrong" about a child playing at it? In countries where BFing is the norm (much of North Africa for instance) young girls left in charge of infants will latch them on to suck for comfort as soon as they have enough breasts for it to be possible.

Is it that, despite our feelings and statements to the contrary, we still see BFing as sexual and thus are offended by a child which is apparently sexualised?

Bec

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Bec, I wouldn't like to see a child BF a baby just because I don't like the idea of anyone else BFing my baby - so to see a girl with no children letting a baby latch on just for comfort would make me upset; it isn't about sexuality, it's about mothering. BTW, I didn't know you could get dolls with moving mouths to feed! I guess they've changed since my sister had baby dolls. I'm more than happy to have children ask me about BFing; Niece was really interested in it the other day when she saw DS having a feed (although she's too young to articulate any complex questions).

No swords/daggers/guns... maybe I'm the only one who will be OK with swords/daggers. Not guns, but then boys whose parents don't let them have "violent" toys just use twigs or fingers to pretend at these toys. I was into LARPing from a young age so needed swords and daggers (wooden ones when young!). I have always respected knives. DH has a BB gun, I don't see anything wrong with owning something you take responsibility for, but then it's about responsibility with older children/teens and not young children.

I'll still force DS to play with swords as I want a LARPing buddy, I hate the fact I don't have any these days! (Partly joking!)

[paradise lost]

But would it upset you to see a child latch on a doll with moving mouth mecanism Ryn? If she is being that dolls mother?

When i had milk i'd have fed a relative or close friend's baby if they had to pop out and be happy for them to feed DD in the same circumstance. Would you rather see a baby screaming in distress? If the mother isn't available? I'm not sure i would.... Would it be offensive to see a child offer a dummy or a finger to a sibling to suck?

All i mean is that i don't see why a child feeding a doll is offensive, worrying, wrong, etc. no matter what kind of doll it is.

ETA - the knives thing is because GLasgow is the biggest knife-crime city in the UK and there ARE little kids of 8 and 9 turning up at school with daddy's flick-knife, so i want to ingrain an aversion early on.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Good point about knives, Bec - we live in a very English village (seriously, we could be in Midsummer Murders if we were a bit further north - though that's not exactly an advert for why children can be trusted with weapons!) so it doesn't really bother me from that angle.

It wouldn't bother me seeing a child BF a doll, espech as I wouldn't know about the moving mouth, but to see them do that to a baby would bother me. As for feeding, I'm the only person who feeds my baby. DH has tried to give DS a bottle (EBM and formula) but DS won't have it; then again, he wasn't like this in the early days but he now knows food doesn't come from Daddy. Even when hungry DS won't accept a bottle from Daddy, I need to calm him down with the breast before he'll even take a bottle from me if we try it. I wouldn't be keen on anyone else BFing my baby, but then I am quite posessive about some things. Of course I don't want to see a baby scream in distress, but that's why I rarely go anywhere without DS.

And I would be mad if someone offered DS a dummy as I hate those things! They're so often misused that I won't have it. Fingers... you don't get food from fingers so that's OK. You do get food from breasts so it's not; but then DS won't suckle at an empty breast, he screams and screams, so I guess that's part of the reason I wouldn't do it.

Wonder if the doll-feeding feels anything like a baby feeding? Does anyone know or want to do that experiment?

[paradise lost]

Caro was it you who felt a 3 year old with the moving mouth doll was too much? (sorry i'd read back but DD isn't that well and i'm doing this in fits and starts..)

Or was it someone else?

Bx

[paradise lost]

Ah, thanks for that, my brain is mush! LOL.

So do you feel it is too much pressure on a young child to emanate that? Or is it something else, sorry i feel like my vocabulary has shrivelled to 3 words! LOL. I'm just trying to find out what it is you don't like about the idea of a 3 year old emanating BFing, and why for Shannon, it's "out of line" of the doll's mouth moves?

Bec

[beckles]

when oscar imitates breastfeeding his 'baby' he always moves his own mouth and makes sucking noises. i don't have a problem with it and if the doll's mouth moved it wouldn't bother me that's what happens in real life.
As for feeding another baby or having my baby fed by someone else, it has never bothered me, i have fed my sister's babies and my girl friends when the need has arisen and my sister has fed mine. actually when i had a low supply we swapped babys hers was much older than mine and had a really good latch to help increase my supply. i would rather that than use artificial milk or bottle feed. ok that was probably OT

this discussion has shown me alot about where people are at. thanks for everyones input.
beckles

[Trillian]

But I think it all comes back to discussions we've had in the lead up to the BF enquiry that we all basically agreed that things need to be done to make BF the 'norm' and not the 'novelty' - why not make this a part of that movement? Why not try to stop bottles being sold with dolls? That's what the real issue is here and what I think Beckles was aiming at when she started the discussion - how can it possibly be seen as normal when there are other factors influencing choice?