IVF sceptic? Looking to hear from others with similar experiences.

[satya]

I'm thinking you are talking from an "unexplained infertility" perspective. When they give you that diagnosis you will never know what is causing it. I understand how frustrating that is as I've been there. There are some undergoing IVF who do get the answers you are asking, but those with unexplained infertility will not. If everything seems to be fine it's damn near impossible to treat. I've read that people with this diagnosis don't normally do so well with IVF. Generally they do better with lifestyle changes, diet changes or alternative therapies.

I did not do IVF but I've had it recommended to me twice.

The first time it was after 3 years of TTC. All the testing showed no issues, clomid didn't work & the next suggestion by the FS was IVF. We weren't interested for a number of reasons. We conceived naturally about 3 months later but miscarried.

The second time was in a new relationship with 9 months of TTC & I was over 40 and had just had another loss. My GP did lots of tests then I saw a gyno. On the very first visit he said that my ONLY chance of a successful pregnancy was to have IVF. Yes.... my ONLY chance. He was wrong. My son is now a year old & he was conceived naturally & no drugs were ever used to sustain the pregnancy.

I think it is a money making business. I think that many people are sent in that direction far too quickly. I agree that the success rates for live births are not good. I don't believe they split them into people with diagnosed fertility issues (such as PCOS, endo, male factors etc) and those with unexplained infertility - well at least back in the days when I researched it they certainly didn't. I think they should.

[Highly sceptical]

My right of reply and I?ll make it reasonably brief.

There was a specific reason I wrote this below when I posted this thread:

?My question is unusual and I would ask only people respond to it who agree with my proposition because they have experienced similar treatment I?m about to describe. I think it is pointless to be responded to from people who have been happy with what they?ve received from their IVF providers?.

And that reason was my hope to avoid exactly what has happened which is a plethora of attacks on my views, I could of read those opinions on many other threads. I know these views are widely held, it is counter opinions I am seeking.

Briggy?s Girl asked: ?Are you seeking intelligent debate and experience??

My answer is no, I don?t want to debate anyone; I only want to read about experiences that share my basic experiences which concerns poor IVF treatment others may have received.

The purpose of my vehicle/mechanic analogy eluded most of the respondents, so let?s try a different one. Imagine this is a cooking forum and I had asked for a recipe to cook roast pork, a modest enough request.

But instead of reading about recipes for cooking pork, my posting I had enraged the Jewish forum members who then angrily chastised me for eating filthy pigs and then went on to browbeat me with how to make blintz?s instead.

Put simply, in a country that prides itself on the principal of freedom of speech, this is my thread and if you can?t answer the question posed ?? don?t say anything.

It?s just possible that people believe me when I say that I?m not doing this to anger anyone, I simply have a legitimate right to voice a countervailing view to the common orthodoxy and my view is that in my experience IVF doctors, their staff and their culture of communication are appalling.

I read of the years some of you have been searching for infertility solutions and they are nothing less than awful to read, it?s precisely because of these accounts and especially as some of your cases that the numbers are so high, that I?m hoping to elicit alternative views.

So please, respect my right to ask what I did and to Redlady who wrote:

?I hope you seek a counsellor that may be able to help you with your anger it?s not good to bottle it up inside?.

Oh I know what I want and it isn?t to be placated with a cup of tea and a hug.

I want a pit-bull like Senator John Faulkner to have a Senate enquiry on the entire IVF sector and when he exposed what I believe is there, I?m absolutely certain that many of these doctors would be quivering from the backlash that would come from multiple quarters but mainly from the couples who have endured their neglect.

And to those who felt free to get affronted at my post and then give me a serve, below are some extra perspectives and in contrast to what doctor?s charge, these are free ?.



1. Analogy. A resemblance of relations; a likeness between things.

2. ?God would not have made sheep had he not wanted them to be shorn?.

Lloyds of London CEO referring to non-disclosure to new insurance ?names? who brought in to cover the yet to be announced Exxon Valdez, asbestosis and silicone breast implant claims that when announced, ruined thousands.

3. Stockholm Syndrome.

A psychological response sometimes seen in abducted hostages, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger or risk in which they have been placed.

[MummaSue]

From what I have read from your second post, you seem not to have really taken what some of the ladies have said.

We hear your anger, acknowledge it, but disagree (well, I do anyway) with your analogies and some of the things that you are saying.

I guess the strong feeling that I get from this is that you are perhaps on the wrong forum to get the answers that you are looking for. This is a support forum, not somewhere that people can get to together and campaign for a witch hunt on the IVF Drs of Australia. Not that you aren't entitled to be here, that isn't what I mean, but I just wonder if you'll get anyone here to be fully on board with your opinions.

I am truly sorry that you feel this way about IVF and the way that you have been treated. Perhaps have you tried getting in touch with the Australian Fertility Society? They might be able to direct your thoughts to somewhere you might get some answers.

Again, I hope that you get some resolution to your situation.

[butterfly_warrior]

What we have here is a failure to communicate...

I don't care how you dress it up - I take offence to having my broken body likened to a motor vehicle. Quite simply because I would probably be much easier to fix if I was one, or I would have been consigned to the scrap heap long ago. I am not only referring to my infertility here, but other chronic health problems that I have dealt with for many years.

Secondly, you seem unwilling to accept that not everyone shares your view of IVF doctors. Most of us that have responded have a very clear reason as to why we cannot conceive and that has been communicated to us at all stages of treatment, and we don't all use the same doctor nor even the same clinic. It is true, what Satya said, that you do get the rough end of the pineapple if you have "unexplained infertility", and there's just not a whole lot that anyone can do about that. I honestly believe that in time, some of the reasons behind "unexplained infertility" will be discovered and treatments will improve, but I also acknowledge that it won't be in time for many.

Nobody is arguing with your right to be angry, or to voice your opinion. People are merely getting upset with your refusal to see anything but your own side of things. As to a senate inquiry into IVF - I doubt it would happen, there's such a small sector of the community that accesses IVF services.

Personally, I think we would all be better off if you were to expend your energy in fighting some of the recent changes that are making IVF less accessible for so many people.

BW

[Nelle]

If the Original Poster doesn't wish to hear alternate opinions, then we suggest members participate elsewhere on the forum and the OP can remain in here to await members who agree with him.

[Holymoly]

I feel the IVF situation here in Australia is woeful. Yes they can boast some terrific things but the bottom line is...the system is broken and no one not even the women/families it is hurting know it or will say so.

US/UK clinics almost without exception test before IVF cycle # 1. Generally 1 in 3 (slightly smaller number here) after 3 IVF cycles will fall pregnant as it was a mechanical issue(blocked tubes,hormone imbalance,PCOS etc. They treat with meds and go around the problem.
Let me say how fantastic our government is and GENEROUS that the decent people of this country are willing to share the cost.This is far the most generous system anywhere...you don't have to be wealthy or mortgage your home or go broke to have a baby. It's not your fault and this is amazing to have available.I feel very grateful.

My objection is the numbers of cycles women endure here. I agree that if it takes 30 goes, and you can bear up and hang onto your dream and have a baby...that's how it should be.
If they did the testing that is done in self pay clinics in the UK and US (elsewhere too but I know more about these)BEFORE cycle # 1, there would be possibly less heartbreak and more happy baby news. Sadly people in the US have it the worst.Only the wealthy can afford it or mortgage their rearss to pay for this that we have available to us..Those clinics there know that for those lucky few who have insurance coverage,they too have a limited number of tries AFTER they go through He&% with other things like IUI and Post coital tests etc ...they had better perform.No one is coming back for try # 5 or 6. It is not common at all. The clinics know they better get it as close to right as they can or their success figures will drop and soon no one will waste their precious chance or chances of having a baby on their ineffective clinic.
No one is watching them here. they have months long waiting lists.If you ae one of the lucky ones for whom it worked on go 1,2 or 3...very pleased for you.Seriously.I wish it were like that for everyone.
In the UK they have a generous system also but there is a cut off age- 39 I think in some areas.If you are overweight, have lifestyle issues and or other things, you can be tossed out of your place in line by the clinic doctor.Some areas have waiting lists to even be evaluated for 18 months ! Once you tire of waiting 6 months or longer between your government cycle you can self pay. These self pay clinics have ridiculous success rates.Again survival of the best.They pre test and pre treat.
If there was more of that here, I think there would be a crazy enormous IVF baby boom.The wait list of up to 6 months would be reduced greatly.I had to wait 5 months for my FS of choice and she's no one special.Just how it is, I didn't care who treated me, I just wanted to get it going.I foolishly assumed that they were equal in their skill care and training.I now know they are all different.
The skeptic has seen this side of things from the partner's side. He feels helpless and is angry at the money making machine this looks like.If you were a doctor, would you rather do 3 cycles or 14? Financially it seems smarter to do 3 then after patient begs do some testing. Not do 3 total. How are they expected to buy their holiday houses on 3 cycles per patient?
THIS is the reason funding is being threatened and it makes me sick.For every woman reading this who is trying to squeeze in a cycle before the $$ picture changes in January...I am angry for you.It stinks. If the IVF clinics were held up to the same standards of practice as in other places, this would not be happening to us.There would be less attacks on funding.The ppoliticians who are doing this have seen the numbers here VS other countries and decided to act.They hurt us as we are squeezed in the middle of this mess.All we want is to do something any other woman seems to be able to do easily but us...hold our new baby in our arms.
These police checks are the same thing.What is this about.Because you're infertile you are automatically suspect as a criminal or child abuser? This makes me sick.Do we not have enough to worry about without being singled out as people who have to prove we deserve children as we have a clean police record?I have seen plenty of people who look like crims or yell at very small children in public who don't have to go through this.They can have babies and do so whether they will be excellent loving parents or not.ART kids are I am sure of it some of the best loved in the world. At least the hardest won. How many cases are there on the books in Victoria where people 'grow their own' children to abuse? Is there an IVF child abuse ring I don't know about?
So skeptic, I do see your point.Your heart's in the right place but the pork and cars relating to women was too much. Me and some of the other girls want to meet you for a molasses and chook feather mock tarring and feathering.

[Bengal]

Dear Highly Sceptical,


"I want a pit-bull like Senator John Faulkner to have a Senate enquiry on the entire IVF sector and when he exposed what I believe is there, I?m absolutely certain that many of these doctors would be quivering from the backlash that would come from multiple quarters but mainly from the couples who have endured their neglect. "

I can't allow myself to get too embrawled in a topic or senate enquiry, as I need ALL the energy I can muster to fight the battle of ART....however

I have been absolutly neglected by a particular FS, in fact I was turned away from an appointment in a waiting room full of people, because I forgot to pay a bill ! Imagine that ! I was full of FSH and was turned away by a FS who I had given over ten thousand dollars worth of business too ! All paid on time, mind you !!!

Now I find myself suggesting Protocol's and medications to fertility Specialists's in order to get the best result. That is hours of trowling the internet.. I get completly frustracted by the whole system, so I can understand how one could become so frustrated and feel neglected, and I think if you have been treated poorly, you may feel better doing something to fix the problem.

I applaud you for doing so, I just hope the energy you put into it, wouldn't be better spent on something else.