Dq Alpha testing

[constance2]

Hello Ladies
I am new to this forum although not new to ivf and infertility.

I have had 20 IVF cycles and several miscarriages, Recently I was told I may have NK cells after a uterine biopsy so I recieved all the treatment for that, this included steroids, clexane and several other drugs with no luck.

After trying every protocol available I have recently had a consult with a US doctor who is suggesting my problem is DQ alpha matching. That is my dna and my husbands are so closely matched my body is killing off all the embryos.

Now I am in the process of sending my blood over to the US and having it tested since according to him there are no labs in AUstralia that can confirm this.

I was wondering if anybody has gone done this path or if they are aware of this particular alloimmune disorder.
thanks
Constance2

[buliej]

I'm sorry I don't know anything about this. I just googled DQ Alpha Matching to see what it is. I find it fascinating that 2 unrelated adults can have "matching" DNA - has anyone ever explained to you how this happens and what it means to be matching (how much has to match)? This may sound stupid, but given how they use DNA to solve crimes etc., I would have thought that there are always substantial differences except with relatives.

Have you done your own research to see if labs here can do it? I know there's a FS in Sydney who is the expert on NK cells - may be it's worth contacting him to see if he does or knows anyone in Oz who does the DQ Alpha Matching test or maybe who could coordinate with the US lab to instruct a local lab to do the tests.

[constance2]

Hi buliej

Yes it is not a common situation, unfortunately even relatives manage to conceive with each other, yet here we are definitely not related yet possibly sharing dna. That really is darned bad luck. This is what the immunologists refer to as alloimmune dysfunction.

I have seen both Dr Sacks and Dr Matthias, Dr Sacks (SYdney)at the time spoke to me about high nk levels and treating them with steroids. Mosty treating autoimmune dysfunction, Dr Matthias(Sydney) wanted to send my blood to the us as only 3-4 US labs have these particular tests. He also wanted me to do the DQ Alpha test. There are also a number of other tests related to immune issues they will test.

The DQ alpha test give you back two numbers each. In a normal pregnancy the father's DNA in the baby tells the mother's body to set up a protective reaction around the developing embryo. If the father's DNA is too closely matched to the mother's, there is a good chance that the embryo created by them is unable to differentiate itself from the mother's body. The mother's body then rejects the embryo because it cannot identify the embryo as a baby.

According to Dr Beers web site

"Each person gets two DQ numbers from their respective parents. Similarly, when couples try to have a baby, they also give DQ numbers to their fetus. These numbers are, for example, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 2, 3 or 4".

I know that having this condition is quite difficult to treat so I wondered if anybody had any experiences with it. Currently trying to organise the logistics in flying my bloodwork to the US (Very costly exercise). But if I get an answer I can move forward knowing what the problem has been. There is nothing more frustrating as you all know than having perfect cycle after perfect cycle and getting great looking embryos with no explaination other than it must be your eggs.

Immune issues only make up such a small amount of the infertility world and nobody here is prepared to consider this. My FS kept telling me to keep trying and never suggested that there could be other tests or options to consider.

Although I have spoken to scientists at both MIVF and monash Ivf and both are working on studies looking at implantation failure they are now suggesting that imbalances of proteins /cytokines in the uterus can lead to implantation failure. Although a long way off from finding treatments.

Constance

[Loula]

Very interesting, sending you the very best wishes with your journy and that you will get an answer soon

[gab72]

Just bumping this up.

Constance, I'm wondering how you went with your blood test results from the US?

I've just sent my blood over to have the same testing as you, and will get my results in 2 weeks. The Dr thinks our problem is a DQ alpha match too. We've done 10 ivf cycles, with no hint of implantation ever.

I hope you've been able to get some direction now.

Gabbi

[constance2]

Hi Gabi
Good to hear from you!!
It was a nervous 2 weeks for me not knowing if my bloodwork was going to arrive in time for it to be tested. Unfortunately I was told some people from Australia have their test come back inconclusive because it does not get there in time. The lab still charges for the tests.

I only just got them back and surprise surprise no dq alpha match. I had 2 doctors tell me they thought it was this, Dr Matthias and Dr Sher. I had convinced myself this was definitely the problem.

The only thing they did confirm was I have Natural killer cells so they must be incredibly aggressive because they dont seem to respond to prednisolone. I have been on steroids for a year. So I think we might give the intralipids a shot. My doctor said he would call Dr Sher in the US and have a chat to him about my treatment. I dont think he has done this yet because I have not heard back.
But Dr Sher said to give the prednisolone and the intralipids a shot. I will let you know what my treatment actually is.

Good luck
constance

[bub]

Hello Ladies
I am new to this forum although not new to ivf and infertility.

I have had 20 IVF cycles and several miscarriages, Recently I was told I may have NK cells after a uterine biopsy so I recieved all the treatment for that, this included steroids, clexane and several other drugs with no luck.

After trying every protocol available I have recently had a consult with a US doctor who is suggesting my problem is DQ alpha matching. That is my dna and my husbands are so closely matched my body is killing off all the embryos.

Now I am in the process of sending my blood over to the US and having it tested since according to him there are no labs in AUstralia that can confirm this.

I was wondering if anybody has gone done this path or if they are aware of this particular alloimmune disorder.
thanks
Constance2

Hi Constance,
I too have elevated N/K cells and poor implantation with ivf. I also, use Monash Ivf, and it appears they only use prednisone for N/K cell treatment. Because I have a stong autoimmune history, I have N/K cell activation. Initially, I seeked a second opinion with Dr Sacks in Sydney and he found the elevated N/k cells and said he believed it to be the contributer to my miscarriages.
I also, have consulted with Dr Sher, and he his opinion was he didnt think an australian Fertility Specialist would keep me pregnant with australia protocol of not using IVIG therapy. '
I am still childless, and wondering how you have gone with your treatment?
It is so confusing where to turn.
Love to hear from you.
kirsty

[bub]

Hi ladies,
Ive just became a member, and I am very interested in what Constance2 and Gab have to say, about Natural killer cells.
Ive too, consulted Dr Sacks and Dr Sher, about my implantation failure.
Love to hear from both girls about any news they may have on the treatment and I can share my knowledge.
Kirsty

[bub]

Hi ladies,

I am trying to locate user Constance2 and Gabbi.
It would be great to discuss both Dr Matthais and Dr Sacks treatment protocols for N/K cells. Looking forward hearing back.

[gab72]

Hi Kirsty,

I am sorry to hear that you are going through so much heartache and confusion. I know what it's like. The search for answers virtually consumes you, yet the more you delve in, the more confusing and frustrating it all becomes - particularly when different people (drs) give you different opinions.

I can only tell you what I know, from what I learned, from what I was told and my experience. I really don't think that there is a right or wrong. We are all different and what works for some won't work for others.

** pg mentioned **

I was/am a patient of Dr Sacks for 2 years. I had repeated implantation failure, no miscarriages, yet there was no reason to be found. When I first saw Dr Sacks he did the NK cell test and I had slightly elevated uNK cells, but nothing to write home about. However we did 4 cycles with prednisolone and clexane. We even gave antibiotics a go one cycle as well. Still, nothing.

I then consulted Dr Sher, sent my blood work over to him, yet he found nothing wrong - despite his near guarantee that he felt it was a DQ Alpha issue we were dealing with. Once the DQ Alpha was ruled out, he felt it was my eggs, and that donor eggs would be the only way to go. Or, at the very least, do a CGH cycle with him. Due to the cost of flying to LA and cycling at SIRM, DH & I were keen to try other options here first.

Dr Sacks suggested doing a PGD cycle, as he too was starting to believe it was my eggs that were the problem. But also felt a process of elimination was necessary - ie do PGD first, see what, if any answers it gives, then move on to donor eggs.

Dr Sher felt PGD was a waste of time and money and that CGH was the only way to go. Sydney IVF recently started doing CGH, so I went and saw them re doing a cycle. They believed they could help, but Dr Sher felt that they were not experienced enough in the procedure at that point in time. I was so confused!!

We decided to do PGD with Dr Sacks. He also suggested that we give prednisolone a miss and just use Clexane to treat the NK cells, as he said sometimes the pred can actually do more harm than good, especially when my NK cells weren't ridiculously high.

Our first PGD cycle ended up getting cancelled due to terrible response from me. We just did a standard ICSI cycle and it was of course BFN. I felt my body had hit the wall. I had a break for 3 months, did acupuncture weekly and chinese herbs, to get myself in the optimal state for my next try at PGD. I started down regging for PGD take 2, and it was then I discovered I was pregnant naturally.

I had been so utterly consumed with finding an answer. I needed to know why. I am sure I drove Dr Sacks mad with all my questions and my constant 'research' but he humoured me, bless him. But I still don't really have an answer, or anything concrete I feel can help you - except that I just got very lucky.

I know another girl who has done many many cycles, and with several miscarriages too. She actually did go to see Dr Sher, and did a surrogate cycle with a family member. This sadly resulted in miscarriage. She then did a donor egg cycle in Australia, using Dr Sher's protocol and a family members eggs, yet this too was not successful. Her last resort was a cycle using her own eggs and Dr Sher's protocol, here in Australia with the support of her clinic, and she was finally successful. She too had no answers, no real explanation, other than finally, something worked.

I am pretty sure that Dr Matthias does IVIG and supports Dr Beer's protocols. (I'm sure you've read the book Is Your Body Baby Friendly? by Dr Alan Beer.) There is also a Yahoo group that is dedicated to Beer's protocols and autoimmune issues etc, which can be quite useful and provide lots of various treatment information. I actually sent blood over to Beer's clinic as well, which came back all clear. Dr Sher supports intralipids now moreso than IVIG, Dr Sacks believes that there is no place for IVIG in treatment. Again, differing opinions!

It is so hard to know what to do, what is right, or what will work. If only there was one right way for everyone! I know I haven't been particularly helpful, I know I've rambled on a lot, but as I said earlier, no matter which dr you speak to, they will have their opinion of what is wrong and what they think will fix it - and of course they believe that they are right. Ultimately I think you have to choose someone and stick with them. Otherwise it just gets too overwhelming. The ideal Dr is willing to try different things, or even work in collaboration with another Dr who can provide a treatment that your Dr can't. I believe I had that with Dr Sacks. He might not have always agreed, but he was willing to listen and willing to try (within reason), provided I had a logical argument to present to him.

I am happy to answer any questions you have, if I can, or even just happy to chat to you more if you want to. I'm sorry I haven't given you much, except a big long essay.

Take care,
Gabbi

[bub]

Hello Gabby,

Thanks for sharing that with me. It seems the regular accupunture/Chinese herbs, really decreased the N/K cell numbers. I too am having a break from IVF for another 3mths. I do go to chinese accupunturist, fortnightly for a year now, but she hasnt been giving me the herbs... So Im going to tell her about you, and see what she says. She is very knowledgable. I definately think this is your answer...to your prayers. My accupunturist keeps saying, keep coming and it will happen, but you never know if to believe them. Look I think it does now.
Can you tell me a bit more about the chinese herbs?
If you have the ingredients or packet, would be so helpful. Ive done a bit of research on C/herbs and know in conjunction with accupunture they have a potent immunomoduling effect.
Do you rember,over that 3 mths did you decrease or increase intercourse?
Cause, my hubby thinks maybe N/K cells may increase and detect sperm and no s increase. Bit like sperm antibodies. infertility.

My N/K cells, are slightly elevated also. But I do have low progesterone levels in my luteal phase, which apparently N/K cells cause this. Ive read N/K activity decreases the progesterone levels, because good levels of progesterone work against the N/K cell action of Proliferating the lining. Now Im on progesterone tablet during my natural cycles to see if numbers decrease. I read a study from a indian F/S on patients with N/K cells and Uterine Harmony. And after 4 mths on it, 38% fell naturally. Progesterone protects the baby from cytoxicity(N/K).

Ive seen Dr Sacks, for a second opinion, last August when he tested my bloods of N/K cell, @ 9%.Anything over 5% is high. He didnt do a uterine biopsy but said, he felt it is the reason why Im miscarrying and poor implantation and wanted me to fly down from Ballina which is 1000klms away to do treatment. We thought that would be just too draining. From Constance2 and yourself, forum discussions I contacted Dr Matthias, who works independently and will confer with F/S of your own choice. That suits us, cause our closest clinic is 1hr at Monash IVF Gold Coast and we have a caring F/S. So I guess if I do all what youve shared and the progesterone over the next 3mths, cant hurt before we go for our 7th ISCI stim cycle. Ive had 1 Fet cancelled, due to embryo not surviving thaw/Freeze??
Dr Sacks did also,say, if our next cycle didnt work to do PGD,but our F/S said he believed it was a waste time/money..Our embryos look so good, but we only get 2 good blastocyst per cycle. Transfer single ones.
Before I seen Dr Sacks, I had a ph Consult with Dr Sher. He said, " He didnt believe any Drs in Aust could get me pregnant, other than him", We too, cant afford LVegas and SIRM. Im with you on this one. So, wiht your friend her F/S was good to adopt Dr Sher protocol. Was that Monash IVF as I use them?
Ive sent user Constance 2, a friend request. She hasnt replied yet. Have you heard from her? Is she the other girl that got lucky and if she can contact me would be great? If you want to discuss any of this in private, my email is
gjkmahearn at hotmail dot com
We are getting so desparate now. Information is a powerful tool. We know our F/S has been struggling with the alloimmune side. We are in this together.
If theres any thing yourself, the other 2 girls can share I would feel grateful.
I think I drive my F/S mad too. And when I seen Dr Sacks, he said, You would travel the world to find answers but maybe there not there. Have you had your bub?
Please email me.If your on Facebook, if u r?
Kirsty

[gab72]

Kirsty, I'll email you