Long Term Assisted Conception Oct/Nov 2007

[Ellie]

Morning girls!

BW hope AF treats you better today...

Lou, I've totally missed the dentist thing along the way..I HATE the dentist, hope everything is ok?

BG, can you recommend a really deep red standard rose for me to put in pots as futures at my front door?

Well, I don't know if I told you guys but I applied for a job in the country...found out yesterday that I didn't get it...have applied for another one and have a few more options being sent to me today...feeling really unsettled. This has made me realise what a total control freak I am!!! To think I could be pregnant and moving house at Christmas is all a bit exciting!!! Have a great day everyonexxx

[butterfly_warrior]

Sorry to hear about the job, Ellie.

So far so good with AF today. I wonder if it is because I started the pill last night. Still not really sure entirely how I feel about a new stim cycle, I guess I'm really starting to doubt that this process works at all... or really if it will ever work for me. Hopefully I can find some confidence and positivity in the next week or so.

BW

[Ellie]

BW I was having the exact same thoughts earlier...how many more times can I get my heart broken??? I'm fighting the temptation to cancel the cycle already!!! We have to keep going...one of the girls at my clinic has just done her 9th stim cycle (with a heap of FET's inbetween!) and is finally pregnant with twins...so...I keep thinking...'what if this is the cycle for us'??? Only way to find out is to keep going I guess? Hang in there hun...we're all in this together this month...it'll be great to be able to support each other xxx

[sushee]

I have felt exactly the same way. I also started to think the process was either flawed or not capable of working for me in particular. I never fell pg in all 7 previous cycles, and did not register even the faintest trace of HCG. Even now my FS believes we have a bigger, yet undiagnosed fertility issue that prevented implantation.

I do believe dogged determination, ploughing ahead and playing the numbers game eventually won out, but like most who move into this thread, hope was in short supply.Like Ellie said, hang in there, guys.

[butterfly_warrior]

Sushee, we had a HCG level of 1.2 on Tuesday when AF arrived. Is this a normal negative result, or does it indicate that implantation did actually start at one point in time? I don't know if a normal not-pregnant state is a HCG level of 0, or just under some particular level. But I also don't want to look silly asking my FS that if it's a really stupid question.

However, with all the symptoms I had that were identical to my first FET where I was pregnant... and the nasty, painful, clotty AF that I experienced over the last couple of days I just can't help wondering.

BW

[sushee]

BW, I had a level of 0 in all 7 cycles, so I would think a HCG level would indicate implantation, however brief. As far as I'm aware, hcg is only produced upon implantation, but anything below a level of 5 is considered a -ve.

I was told that implantation occurs fairly often, but many are lost even in women with no fertility issues. I never achieved implantation in all previous 7 cycles, but that is incredibly uncommon apparently. Given that my fertility issue was blocked tubes, I should have achieved implantation at least some of the time, even if it didn't result in a pg.

[briggsy's girl]

Thanks for dropping in Sushee - i was thinking much the same would be the case with hcg only produced when implantation actually occurs.

[butterfly_warrior]

I was almost hoping that wasn't the case... although it does at least mean I wasn't going mad and imagining things. Guess that really does make it two angels now.

BW

[briggsy's girl]

huge hugs BW - there's nothing else i can say at the moment.

thinking of you hun

[diva det]

i was like sushee and always got a bog fat zero on my unsuccessful cycles. But
when I got BFP's they were high - like 3 weeks 5 days - 1200 with twins and 3 weeks 4 days 105 with singleton.

Don't get disheartened girls- it really is like waiting for a 6 to come up when you roll a dice!!!
If i had stopped after my first few failures, i wouldn't have my wonderful 4 (nearly 5) year old twins now!
that is why we keep on trying and trying and trying!!!!

i think this is cycle number 6 for me and the 3rd cycle in 12 months with 2 BFP's and definately this time around a BFP!! (the power of positive thinking) this one is gonna work- i know it!!!
It is our last FE with this cycle and when we first started stimming the question was bought up about what to do with excess embys. I said to hubby that we won't have to decide as we will use them all up!! After we got BFP last cycle- i still had that thought in the back of my mind and said to DH that i was scared that something was going to happen. Well it did- and here we are. So i am positive that it is going to work!!! More scared that it won't defrost well than anything- so if we can get over that hurdle- its all good!!

Together we can conquor the world!!!
bring it on
odette

[sushee]

BW.

It's hard because if you weren't undergoing treatment it's likely you never would have known. Suspected maybe, but when AF arrived, you probably would not have thought much more about it. At least you have the opportunity to grieve for this little one, which is no consolation, I know.

[butterfly_warrior]

I actually feel mostly ok now. I guess because it was pretty much all over before I even realised it had begun. It also tells me that my embryos like to implant. It tells me that my body is doing all the right things (even if there's a few wrong things in there as well). My acupuncturist suggested that we request luteal phase support even if we do another natural FET... I'm guessing it's probably more likely that this little embryo just didn't quite have what it took to go the distance rather than my body doing anything screwy this time. It is actually tending to restore my faith in the fact that this can work - bit of a paradox, I know.

Dr S has been emailed again, and I'm just hoping we get his answers before we next see David. I'm starting to think that whether we stick with David or switch over to IVF Australia and find someone who can work more easily with Dr S will depend a lot on just what David will suggest at this next appointment...

BW

[briggsy's girl]

i think, from a psychological standpoint, David was probably the best FS for you to start out with - but at this point, knowing yourself a lot better, working with someone at IVF Aust may be more beneficial for you...

it's a tough call - between the known and the relatively unknown

[butterfly_warrior]

Yep... and the psychological need may have reduced since I started seeing the psychologist, but it is still there. There's also changing to different nurses, embryologists, etc, etc.. a bigger clinic, more staff, less personal treatment... It is a tough call, and I can see advantages and disadvantages both ways. No firm decisions yet, will see how it all pans out in the next few weeks.

BW

[briggsy's girl]

ellie - sorry - kept forgetting to post re roses!

Mr lincoln, papa meilland, avon - they're all nice deep reds

feel free to pm me - i can send you links to some great sites to scope out different roses

[sushee]

Actually, since you guys are talking roses, can any of you help me here?

[briggsy's girl]

just looking at some sites to see what i can find for you sushee

[Loula]

just though i would post this - sushee/ mods please move if ive dont the wrong thing ta

A cheap, painless alternative to IVF?
Breakthrough in fertility treatment as first British babies are born using new technique
By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor
Published: 25 October 2007

A landmark in the development of fertility treatment was announced by doctors yesterday with the birth of the first babies to be conceived using a revolutionary technique that offers a safer, cheaper alternative to IVF.

The twin boy and girl, who were born on 18 October at the Radcliffe Infirmary in Oxford, were conceived using In Vitro Maturation (IVM), a method that dispenses with the use of costly fertility drugs, saving up to £1,500 on the normal price of treatment.

The technique is also safer for the one in three women among those seeking fertility treatment who have polycystic ovaries, a condition that puts them at high risk of dangerous side effects from fertility drugs.

Specialists said the development could make in vitro techniques available to more infertile couples by cutting the cost of treatment. Infertility is estimated to affect one in six couples in the UK but IVF costs around £5,000 a cycle and treatment is restricted on the NHS.

Tim Child, a consultant gynaecologist at the Oxford Fertility Clinic and senior fellow in reproductive medicine at Oxford University, who led the work, said: "I think it is a safer, cheaper alternative to IVF for all women. However, for many women the success rates are currently much lower. Research in the future will address this."

The Oxford Fertility Clinic is the only one in the UK licensed to use the technique: 20 cycles of treatment have been carried out and four other women are currently pregnant, giving a pregnancy rate of 25 per cent. This is expected to improve with further experience. In addition, without the need for drugs, repeating the procedure would be less taxing on the woman. For standard IVF, the Oxford clinic's pregnancy rate is 45 per cent.

The parents of the babies, who have asked to remain anonymous, were delighted, Mr Child said. At birth the boy, born first, weighed 6lb 11oz and the girl weighed 5lb 14oz. "The parents are ecstatic. They have got absolutely stunning twins. They went home on Tuesday to start their new life together. It is wonderful."

In standard IVF, the woman takes fertility drugs for five weeks to stimulate production of her eggs, which are then collected direct from her ovaries under the guidance of ultrasound, before being fertilised in the laboratory. The drugs cost between £600 and £1,500, with charges often higher in London.

The procedure is time consuming and uncomfortable and for the third of women with polycystic ovaries there is a one in 10 risk of severe ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome, a dangerous side-effect that in rare cases can prove fatal.

IVM avoids the use of drugs and instead involves collecting eggs from the ovaries while they are still immature. The eggs are then grown in the laboratory for 24 to 48 hours before being fertilised and replaced in the womb.

Mr Child said: "The main advantage is improved safety for women. Women with polycystic ovaries have a one in 10 chance of severe ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome. IVM completely takes away that risk. IVF is also expensive. With IVM the cost is reduced, meaning it could become a more accessible form of fertility treatment."

The technique was pioneered by the University of McGill in Montreal, Canada, where Mr Child spent two years researching and developing it before joining the University of Oxford in 2004. It has also been used in Seoul, South Korea, and Scandinavia. To date about 400 babies have been born worldwide using IVM compared with around two million by IVF.

At present the Oxford Fertility Clinic is only offering the treatment to women with polycystic ovaries, but in the long term Mr Child said he hoped to offer the procedure to all women. "When we see patients we say these are the options and it is up to them to decide. We are not offering it to women with normal ovaries at present because we don't get enough eggs from them. It depends on the number of resting follicles and with normal ovaries you don't get so many.

"On average we get four eggs from a woman with normal ovaries compared with 16 from one with polycystic ovaries. The procedure involves a process of attrition – two-thirds mature and two-thirds of those fertilise – so you need a decent number to start with."

Research on developing the culture medium in which the eggs are matured in the laboratory could reduce the attrition rate so that fewer eggs are needed. The technique could then become suitable for women with normal ovaries, Mr Child said.

A second drawback of the procedure was that eggs grown in culture had a harder outer shell than those matured in the ovary and were more difficult for sperm to penetrate. The eggs had to be fertilised by ICSI – injecting a single sperm directly into the egg. "We hope to develop the culture medium so the egg doesn't mind being grown in the laboratory and we can use ordinary insemination [mixing eggs and sperm so fertilisation occurs naturally]. But in most IVF clinics, 50 per cent of patients are treated with ICSI anyway," he said.

A spokesman for the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority said IVF was expensive for most couples and a minority got treatment on the NHS. But it was too soon to tell whether IVM would replace IVF.

"Anything that reduces the cost of IVF, provided it is safe, means treatment could be available to more people. But this is an emerging technology – it is very early days. The most important thing is that patients get proper information so that they can make a decision on what is best for themselves."

.................................................. .....................................and yes my ticker does say CD 64!!!!