Do you find this insulting?

[Alyssas_Mum]

Well i dont/didnt need help concieving and i dont find it insulting, i think that some couples would rather have two kids (ie twins) for a number of dif reasons, if they've got the money to do it then why should it have anything to do with us. I personally wouldnt do it, i would rather concieve the natural way which is obvisouly the way im intended too.

[Hugosmum]

I find it bizarre that someone would be "insulted" by someone elses fertility choices...? It seems fair comment to think a woman would be 'crazy' to go through IVF unnecessarily, but how is it an 'insult' to others? The use of IVF solely to get twins is an ethical issue similar to other questions about 'designer babies' - its not a personal attack against the infertile.

Therefore I think the poll question is worded very strangely. Perhaps a better question is "do you think that couples should be permitted to undergo IVF when they have no history of infertility" or "just to get twins" or similar...?

[kateB]

So lets answer that question, and move on from any further debate that could be even more insulting than the original question.

Niliac - the issues being discussed here ARE part of being able to answer the question, but I do agree that we need to remember that Brad and Ange are people and all of us here are people too with feelings and opinions that may differ.

Personally, having had a cancelled cycle recently and waiting to start the next cycle I don't necessarily find it insulting, but it does concern me that there ARE waiting lists and it may make infertile couples have to wait longer - and that isn't really fair.

My biggest fear with hearing about 'designer' babies is what about those babies? What if someone wants twins and only one survives? How will that one child be treated? Will they forever feel they have let the side down because the other twin didn't survive? Even if logically it isn't their fault.

i've heard of people in America paying big bucks for the sperm of musical geniuses, stars, etc etc, and then getting upset (and sue of course) when their child doesn't come out playing Mozart (they seem to forget that the child has half their DNA and may have ten thumbs when it comes to playing music!). THAT angers me! Those poor kids will forever know that they aren't 'good enough' in the eyes of their parents.

My DH and I want a child so much, and I just want to meet them and learn who they are and love them. I don't care if its one or two - though only having one embryo transfer makes sense to me as it is less risk to the baby.

As for the conversation about 'needing' have a baby - no its not a need - it's the strongest desire, the most precious gift, and the greatest job in the whole world. We've been told that we should adopt rather than go through IVF - after a few interesting words from me I told them that we are not able to adopt due to medical reasons - same as some of the other girls here. So IVF is our only hope.

Take care all,

[Cherie]

I voted that I DO need assisted conception myself (am currently undergoing IVF/ICSI cycle) and DON'T find it insulting. What other people choose to do with their bodies has no bearing whatsoever on me, my husband, and our infertility journey. They're journeys are irrelevant to me, therefore I don't feel personally insulted.

Lots of people have lots of medical treatments/surgeries that aren't necessarily medically necessary, e.g. some types of cosmetic surgery. People have all sorts of reasons why they might want twins, so who am I to judge their intentions?

Having said that, at my IVF clinic, only 40% fall pregnant with an IVF stim cycle, and of those, 75% AREN'T twins, so it's certainly not guaranteed. The time, early mornings, constant appointments, assault of hormones on your body, general anaesthetics, hospital visits etc are not easy, and if I wasn't infertile, you can bet your bottom dollar there's no way I would be having IVF.

[Steph]

hmm... I must say I am surprised at the high number of those who do take personal insult to the concept of using IVF to conceive twins. The question doesn't take into account any of the circumstances leading to such a choice

I am blessed to have 3 healthy naturally convceived children and have had 4 pregnancies. Twins and triplets run rife in my family (and twins in my hubby's family)and I have to be honest - I desperately would love a multiple birth - furthermore I have 3 boys and if I was allowed I would have IVF to have a much wanted girl. Before anyone gets upset - I wouldn't change my boys for the world and I love them more than life itself - my desire for a girl is a completely seperate issue to being grateful for what I have; but the link I am drawing here, is (in my opinion) who has the right to decide who's needs are higher? Certainly if I choose IVF and my choice were to push back an infertile couple on a list, then I personally wouldn't go ahead. That is my personal choice - but surely anyone who wants children has a right to try an act on that dream?

What I find insulting is other people thinking they can tell someone what is right and wrong - each person needs to make their own choices based on their own experiences; in my experience someone with children of both genders is very lucky; in my sister's experience (who is having trouble ttc), I am very lucky. Everyone's personal experience is just that - their own and I think no one else has the right to judge. To feel insulted by someone's else's choice?? I think it is more fruitful to look at why their choice affects you in the way it does.

But in saying all this - if the choice is just a choice of fashion... be it up to the decider to have a clean conscience!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I have no problem with people who need IVF having twins. People who cannot otherwise have any children. People who don't choose to have this invasive, life-threatening procdure done but still do it in order to be parents.

People who "want twins" or "want one of each" or whatever... personally, I find that abhorrant. I wouldn't make a law against it, but I dislike it. Offence or insult may not be the best words, but it's close. "Normal babies aren't good enough for me!" it seems to shout. "We're better than you! Our children are more perfect than yours!"

It's just the first step towards normalising medical treatment... anyone thinking along the lines of Brave New World or Gattika when people demand fertility treatments for fashion rather than need?

I do, however, find it insulting that you are belittling me for selecting the "insulting" option. And, btw, I will tell you right now I think theft is wrong... is that a bad thing? Can I not tell everyone that? Are you insulted by your government telling you that?

[janeo]

I find it highly insulting and TBH very hurtful.. I have only just started the journey of fertility treatment after 2 1/2 yrs of TTC naturally (with a m/c and a break due to getting engaged and married) .........

I have heard that Brad and Angelina went down the IVF path because they really wanted another child and didn't want it to take too long so they did IVF to take the stress out of TTC.. ALthough it has come out that they didn't use IVF..

Fortunately as of yet we don't have to try IVF, we are on the clomid journey for now, but if we were to go down the IVF path it is something that we don't really have the money for, we would have it if we really needed it BUT it is our savings for house renovations and our futures. For someone who has what it would seem endless money to use IVF cos they can so they don't have to really TTC is bull**** and very upsetting for myself....

[~clover~]

I personally don't think its fair.
If you are meant to have twins you will. It's purely up to Mother Nature.
People who need help with fertility go through alot of heartache. Its not fair that perfectly healthy, fertile people are taking up the time & resources. Celebreties or not.
If you can have one baby naturally, don't go risking yours & your babies lives by having 2.(I know thats going a bit far!) But it is putting you & your babies at higher risk by choice.
It's even harder for me to accept if the couple already has children & still uses IVF just for twins.

My Uncles wife was considering IVF & was talking about asking for twins straight up. I couldn't believe it.

IVF is for helping infertile couples have the family they've been dreaming of. Not to give celebrities an easier ride.
We don't get to chose the sex of our babies, or what colour hair they have. Why actually try to have more than one bub unless you've been through it all & it's your only chance at having a family.

[Liz]

I find it bizarre that someone would be "insulted" by someone elses fertility choices...? It seems fair comment to think a woman would be 'crazy' to go through IVF unnecessarily, but how is it an 'insult' to others? The use of IVF solely to get twins is an ethical issue similar to other questions about 'designer babies' - its not a personal attack against the infertile.

Therefore I think the poll question is worded very strangely. Perhaps a better question is "do you think that couples should be permitted to undergo IVF when they have no history of infertility" or "just to get twins" or similar...?

Completely agree. I think the question was cleverly worded to stir up emotion, and to influence the emotions felt too. Typical journalism really.

[sushee]

Insult and offence are personal feelings, and while I myself would not be insulted, I find it amazing that anyone feels they have the right to tell someone else how to feel about something so personal and difficult as infertility, especially if they've never had to experience infertility themselves.

[maz]

I find it bizarre that someone would be "insulted" by someone elses fertility choices...? It seems fair comment to think a woman would be 'crazy' to go through IVF unnecessarily, but how is it an 'insult' to others? The use of IVF solely to get twins is an ethical issue similar to other questions about 'designer babies' - its not a personal attack against the infertile.

Therefore I think the poll question is worded very strangely. Perhaps a better question is "do you think that couples should be permitted to undergo IVF when they have no history of infertility" or "just to get twins" or similar...?

hmmmmmmm...so you wouldnt be insulted if I sat down next to you, farted, picked my nose and ate it the decided to take my clothes of there. These things would be my choice's...not yourse and I bet you would walk away being highly insulted by what I was doing.

We are human, everyone has the right to think, say and do as they please. If someone on the other hand finds something offensive, hurtful or nice they have the right to voice what they are feeling.

Woman that go through IVF climb big mountains to do it. They may seem very selfish to some wanting a child that badly...but in my eyes they are selfless, strong woman who should be recognised for what they putting not only their bodies into, but their mental stability and well being. AND if wanting a 'twin' out come is what they want...then so be it. they dame well deserve happiness too!

[Steph]

Insult and offence are personal feelings, and while I myself would not be insulted, I find it amazing that anyone feels they have the right to tell someone else how to feel about something so personal and difficult as infertility, especially if they've never had to experience infertility themselves.

Hi - I hope that isn't how I've come across. My point was meant to illustrate that I think judging another's choice (IVF for what ever reason) and / or feelings (insult at fertile couples choosing IVF) is not right - no matter what the choice or what the feeling. I hope no one thinks I am judging their right to feel insulted or upset or any other valid emotion. and even though I've had 3 healthy children, I don't fall pregnant easily and I have had 3 miscarriages in my 1st tri and 1 in my 2nd, so I do understand heartache and the emotions it stirs a little and how "in those particular moments I didn't understand the choices of someone who seeed "lucky" in comparison to my current state.

[kateB]

furthermore I have 3 boys and if I was allowed I would have IVF to have a much wanted girl.

Hey Steph - I don't mean this to be 'you shouldn't want a girl' or anything because certainly I think your longing for a girl is as valid as anyone else's longing for a child (be they boy or girl), and I hope that you do have a little girl one day (and congrats on your three boys - I always imagined myself the Mum of a gaggle of boys! )

I just wanted to clear up that in IVF you can't actually select the gender of your baby - the embryos are not developed enough to determine which ones are girls and which are boys, so I'm afraid IVF wouldn't be the best choice if you wanted a particular gender. One of the things I've found with going through IVF is just how little I knew about it and I guess I'm on the 'alert' to clearing up any misconceptions (is that a pun???) regarding it.

Take care,

[melbel]

Actually not quite correct there Kate. It is possible to determine the sex of an embryo through the IVF process it just requires a further more expensive procedure to be done called PGD.....about $5000 more than a regular cycle in fact. BUT it is currently illegal anywhere in Australia to select an embryo based on sex unless the reason for the selection is that the couple carry a sex linked genetic disorder like haemophilia or sickle cell anaemia or something like that. When a PGD procedure is done one of the markers that will show up is the x and y chromosomes, the only person under current legislation that is privy to that information is the genetic scientist...not even your IVF doctor is allowed to know if the embryo they are implanting is a boy or a girl.

OKay back to the topic at hand.....I have pondered this and followed the discussion for most of the day before voting. My gut feeling as someone undergoing IVF (and PGD) is that it is insulting to me as an individual that someone would expect to have access to what is essentially a medical and surgical treatment to treat a medical disorder in order to fulfill what is essentially a convenience for these otherwise heathy couples. In any other area of medicine we would not think to give medical treatment to a healthy person....we would not give chemotherapy to someone who did not have cancer, we would not offer a new organ to someone who did not need it so why are we offering infertility treatment to otherwise fertile couples...... just doesnt make sense to me. I have no problems with gay lesbian and single people seeking treatment...in my eyes they fall under my broader banner/definition of infertility but a healthy couple with a proven track record of healthy pregnancies and babies....to me that is just another example of what is fast becoming a "fast food" "drive through convenience store" mentality. Is that really the way we as a society want to head...I personally don't think so. In my opinion (and I stress it is my opinion) people who wish to carry twins do so because they want to get their instant family over and done with in one hit, one preganancy and more importantly in my personal view, one lot of maternity leave so that they can get back their careers as soon as possible with minimal downtime. I think society in general needs to take a big hard look at itself when the need for career supercedes the need for family values and nurturing.
Just my take on it all for what its worth.

Also I cringe at the thought and possibilty that the same people who are desirous of these convenience families tend to be those of the more affluent nature and the possibility of queue jumping arises....money can buy anything even babies it seems in this life and while I had to wait 4 months for my initial IVF appointment with the fertility specialist of my choice, if you have the right influence you can walk in the next day it seems. I think that is what bugs me most of all about fertile couples accessing IVF treatment is that they are taking away valuable time from the people who are really entitled to that MEDICAL treatment......me being one of them. To undergo PGD treatment (which we are accessing to look at recurrent miscarriages issues) means that we are only able to cycle at certain times. The laboratory equipment , the procedures and the scientists needed are so specialised that only 4 patients can be done each week through this technique, meaning we have to wait our turn to cycle each time as to when there is a gap. I cannot simpy do an IVF cycle every month till I get it right I have to wait several months in between till there is room for me. If one of those spots was taken up by a healthy couple looking for designer babies I would be ropeable.
To bring this thought back onto the topic, IVF in general is a limited resource operation. Not every hospital can offer it, it is highly specialised and requires millions of dollars of equipment and highly specialised and trained doctors. The treatments are expensive requiring the use of both medical and surgical time. I am insulted that healthy people think they have the right to clog up the system and hog my doctors time and resources with their designer families when other families struggle even with the help of medicare to afford the medical treatment that they deserve in order to acheive their dream of a family.

[expat]

I don't find it insulting for a normally fertile couple to use IVF to have twins by choice but this is perhaps because I'm ridiculously fertile and have never had to go though the stress and anguish of desperately wanting to conceive.

I do however find it to be a waste of resources and think it should only be available to parents who will pay for it all out of pocket themselves.

[Hopeful28]

I find the Brangelina thing to be very upsetting. There are millions of women who have a fertility problem and want children but they cannot afford the ivf procedure. Here they are having the procedure and they don't have a fertility problem it is just plain insulting. That money that they got for those pictures, maybe they should've donated some of it towards a fund that can help actual infertile mothers conceive.

[paradise lost]

I didn't vote because "insulting" isn't quite in my equation.

Having accidentally conceived my little lady, and having to only a small extent on here been given the privilege of sharing AC journeys with other women, i cannot FATHOM why anyone who didn't have to have IVF would do so for "convenience". Compared to unprotected sex it is the most inconvenient way i can THINK of to get a baby. Also IVF offers no guarantees. Lots of women have twin pregnancies and lose one baby early on. In addition twin pregnancies are actually relatively dangerous for all concerned (which is why most FS' won't even put 2 embies back).

So i'm not insulted by the idea. I'm concerned that those whose only shot at conception is through AC will be queue-jumped by those who don't actually need treatment to get PG, and i'm confused that anyone would volunteer for this path without a real need for it (be it social or physical - i CAN see why a single woman would rather not have random sex to get PG!), but i guess when humans stop baffling me it'll be my time to die!

Bx

[Lulu]

How hypothetical is this question?
Does anyone actually go through IVF to get a multiple birth?? Are you allowed?

Has this question been raised before Brad and Ange?

I didn't answer the poll because Im not sure the question is even relevant if it doesn't even happen.....