Do you find this insulting?

[hopefullysoon]

Well first up, the issue of whether or not Brad and Angelina's twins were naturally conceived or not is obviously irrelevant! (why all the debate on this?!) - they being merely a catalyst for raising the topic of whether or not IVF treatment specifically for twins, in a healthy couple is ethical or not.
Personally (and this will always be a very subjective topic), I am always very leery of medical procedures being performed unecessarily in healthy individuals (not just IVF). I think there is are definite ethical issues in exposing an individual to the associated risks (low though they may be, granted) of a purely voluntary and 'to order' medical procedure when they have a healthy natural alternative. Is the treating physician truly acting in their patient's best medical interests? Particularly in this debate, where the 'voluntary' pregnancies in question are twin pregnancies with the statistically markedly higher associated risks.
And of course the other major issue for me is one of resourses. Certainly I beleive that in the allocation of fertility treatment resources, 'voluntary' couples should be at the end of the queue at the very least, and no public health insurance should cover any of it.
I think we need to be very aware also, of where this could potentially lead, and what is fueling the access to this 'voluntary' fertility (including 'to order' twins). In 2007 I travelled to the USA to access IVF as a surrogate, for friends of mine who had tried unsuccessfully to conceive for approximately eight years. I can certainly vouch for the fact that the large fertility clinics there, are all about commercialism - they are absolute 'baby making' production lines (it quite took my breath away, and was somewhat distasteful and offputting from my perspective). Would we really want our fertility clinics in Australia to take on such an industrial commercial edge: profit making, 'user pays', 'to order' pregnancies? Hmmm.....
Leading on from this is the issue of how much 'control' we should ethically be able to access over our pregnancies - where does the buck stop. If we can have a twin pregnancy 'to order', what about gender, or (as genetic sciences scurry along) specific physical characteristics, or, or, or............it certainly a line in the sand that we need to think about. (Don't get me wrong folks, I'm absolutely pro genetic technologies, where there are genuine health or fertility issues to address).
Absolutely finally (sorry for this being so long!!), having undergone IVF treatment, I think you'd have to be mad to access it for no good reason - it's lengthy, incredibly invasive, and most unpleasant.
By the way - I had twins (the embyos weren't fabulous, so it was judged prudent to transer two embryos, and they obviously decided they were there to stay anyway!!).

Cheers Hopefullysoon

[butterfly_warrior]

Lulu, it depends on the clinic. My FS flat out refused to do double embryo transfers, regardless of age and number of failed cycles, so twin pregnancies with him are simply not an option. I never bothered asking, as a 43 year old friend seeing the same doctor with numerous failed cycles behind her was flatly refused. I figured that me at 33 with a good pregnancy rate from transfers (sadly also followed up with a high rate of miscarriage) would have no hope of trying to make him budge.

Others are happier to put two embryos back, but I have always been under the impression that it's to increase the chances of having one stick, rather than a deliberate action to give the couple twins. Someone who is actually able to have double embryo transfers would be better suited to answer the question than myself.

BW

[nanananny]

My double ET's are because of my age (now 44) and yes it's to double the chances of one sticking not to have twins although that would be nice

[Lulu]

Thats what I mean, I read here how Drs won't do it here, so it's not like you rock up and say "2 please"!
I've seen how some of you guys have to ARGUE to have 2 transfers, and as much as that would CRAP ME OFF if I was in your situation, Hopefullysoons perspective of the baby machine clinics in the US have given it another angle.

I want to know why the journo thinks its an issue worth discussing if it doesn't happen here, and it doesn't look like many FS's will do it anyway....

[sushee]

I never really had to argue to have two transferred. I had 2 day 2 embryos transferred at my second stim cycle, at 34 years of age. But it was never about trying to have twins, it was about trying to have a child, period.

I had 2 embryos transferred each time from my second cycle onwards too, and took until my 8th cycle to fall pregnant. That cycle, I had 2 blastocysts transferred (even better chance of implantation) and yet still had a singleton pregnancy.

Which is why I find it funny that anyone thinks they can 'order' a twin pregnancy. They would be unnecessarily spending money on a invasive, unpleasant procedure, may face the prospect of mulitple foetal reduction (if they try to increase their chances by transferring 3 or more embryos, as they're allowed to do in the US), or - the most likely scenario - end up with a singleton pregnancy anyway.

Then what happens? Do you sue for not getting the twins you paid for? LOL!

[byronsprincess]

Honestly, I would rather spend my time thinking about my own family and concerns, if you spend a little less time worrying about what others do and more time concerntrating on your own life you will find you are alot happier and no longer get insulted by what others do. I need AC , what others do is none of my concern.

[oli's mum]

I do have a strong opinion about this issue. IVF is a process that has been developed for those of us that are unable to conceive naturally. The issue of putting back more than one embryo depends on the age, medical situation of the patient and the guidance and experience of the doctor - i don't believe that there can be a black and white answer to that.

As for fertile couples utilising IVF to increase their chances of falling pregnant, i find this amazing as most of us know it not only often takes a long time but the heartbreak of knowing you just have to keep going because there is no other option is heartbreaking. For these same people, to think they may be choosing to have twins by utilising IVF and having 2 embryos put back to achieve that end, YES i do find it insulting. What happened to being thankful for a body that will naturally achieve a healthy pregnancy?

On the other hand, consider this - if you are a doctor who has Angelina on your doorstep with the extra cash and the prospect of that "fine addition" on your resume, then what would you say???

I just hope that the future research leads to improved pregnancy rates and that this success continues to benefit those of us who really are greatful for the technology.

[Snowy Love]

Perhaps a different question needs to be asked: "Do you find that the media gives a untrue representation of IVF and the effort and heartbreak involved" - although that may give a landslide to the affirmative side.

[Salsa]

I answered the poll "yes I find it insulting and didnt need assistance", before i read the actual post regarding what it was being made reference in.

I think knowing that it has been asked in reference to a high profile celeb couple who love having a big family and seem fortunate to be able to make this happen quickly in a variety of ways, makes it difficult to separate the initial question without making mention to them, (even if only in your thought process and not written in your post) because they choose to make their family news public and there is obvious controversy and feelings about their entitlements as a famous wealthy couple around the ways they have grown their family.

Whether its the reality of their family life or not, they and the media project an image of being sooo happy and together, as a beautiful large multi cultural growing family. And if they did choose IVF to conceive twins - which I personally doubt they did, that just adds to that sence of their privilege that so many of us 'happy with our own lives' probably wish could be more fair.

[briggsy's girl]

Whether its the reality of their family life or not, they and the media project an image of being sooo happy and together, as a beautiful large multi cultural growing family. And if they did choose IVF to conceive twins - which I personally doubt they did, that just adds to that sence of their privilege that so many of us 'happy with our own lives' probably wish could be more fair.

for me at least, the "Brangelina" factor doesn't enter into this debate at all. i don't think their lifestyle changes my feelings about it at all. the example i actually used with my DH when discussing this was my own brother - they have three children, and i asked "would you be offended if they, or another couple like them, chose to use IVF just because they wanted twins"? i took the celebrity factor away - and i still find the notion offensive/insulting!

ultimately, i don't care what a celebrity couple do with their lives - i don't buy trash magazines, the only gossip i read is what gets posted on BB, or what i hear from the girls at work. i don't think HOW their children were conceived is newsworthy. but the fact that the rumour mill started this topic of conversation, and brought to the public attention "healthy" couples using fertility treatment JUST to have twins, i think it's fair to address the issues, and to be honest about how we feel. trashy gossip mags do a damn good job of minimising so many issues that the average person experiences - struggles to conceive, miscarriage, struggles with body image - and they do it all for the dollars they will get. until trash mags get a grip on reality, learn to respect celebrities personal lives as PERSONAL, and stop using the latest rumour as a way to sell their mags, they will continue to be insulting/offensive to those of us who really are going through such medical procedures.

[BellyBelly]

Um, it's actually just a regular newspaper, it's not a headline story, and the journalist is a mother of a toddler, who heard the rumour and thought about the question if it would upset other couples going through IVF. The rumour triggered the interest as she felt that it was insulting in a way, she wondered what others would think. After the harsh responses she received on this forum (some of which have been removed), she felt awful and didnt want to run the story anymore, she was going to be mentioning "what the members on the BellyBelly website thought" about couples conceiving for the pure purpose of want than need. But don't worry, I dont think she plans to run the story anymore so can we all please just move on?

[vroomvikki]

As a person that suffered infertility for many years and went through assisted conception to conceive my twins I am insulted and really hurt that someone fertile would do this.

Why should anyone be given the chance to go get ivf done purely to try and get twins.It seems utterly ridiculous that anyone would consider that.

The pain and suffering and longing to have a child is something that a fertile person doesnt ever have to go through. Why use the resources and a spot for a couple that are so desperate to conceive be taken by someone lazy enough that cant be bothered doing it themselves. If they have no fertility issues then they dont need IVF. Its selfish and one step away from designer babies.
People want to control their lives and if they have enough money they think they can order their babies like they do their drive thru meal.
Whats next??? Ordering a baby that looks like Brad Pitt and has Angelinas lips and smouldering eyes?

Only a person that has suffered the arduous journey of infertility can understand what it feels like. The desperation you have everyday of hoping that you will one day have a baby in your arms. The longing, the hope. Its hard enough seeing people that can conceive at the drop of the hat, let alone ones that would consider ivf just to get twins.

And I agree...how wrong is the journalist that asks the question. Shows how ignorant they are in understanding the IVF process here in Australia.
IVF does not guarantee you twins, nor does it even guarantee you a single baby. It is a procedure that will help you maybe achieve what nature hasnt let you.

[barney]

very interesting subject especially IF you have done ivf

[kiya]

As a mother who has conceived naturally and now sadly has to use IVF because of reasons which are privately my own (medical), i think it is up to the individual couple who are trying to have the baby/ies. It is not anyone elses business not now not ever, and i certainly don't think that it should ever be up for discussion as to how your child/ren are brought into this world. Everyone is being so critical of a couple having IVF for twins, but look at the news recently how a couple is taking their IVF dr to court because they got twins,and they only wanted ONE child. They want to send one of the twins to a private school with all the bells and whistles, while the other lives the "cinderella" syndrome and has to go to a public school, and the normal things in life while the other lives the live of luxury. I thought we were meant to be thankful for what we have been given not the other way around, but now i think this topic needs to be put to bed as it has now gone past the point of being a simple polling question to a full on debate. cheers kiya

[fionas]

I don't care how people (celebrities or 'civilians') conceive; I only care about what sort of parents they are and whether their kids are happy.

[briggsy's girl]

Kiya, the couple that sued their doctor never said one child would go public, one private. they sued for the cost of sending the additional child to a private school as they needed to put a number on their financial expectations. they've not said their children would be treated different to each other, they've simply said that the lifestyle they wish to give those children will be more expensive having two children. that situation, however, is not relevant to this discussion. they didn't have IVF just to have twins. they had fertility treatment because they couldn't conceive naturally.

i do believe we have a right to have an opinion on whether or not otherwise fertile people, able to conceive naturally, are able to access medical technology that has been developed for the purpose of helping infertile individuals to conceive. why shouldn't we have a healthy debate about it. the point of the thread was to ask if individuals are offended or insulted by the notion of people using ivf solely to give birth to twins - it has evolved into a discussion about WHAT IVF entails, why we don't think it's right, why we, as indivduals, are offended. the poll shows that over 60% of the respondants, and by no means all IVF/AC individuals, find the thought insulting/offensive.

you've said

I thought we were meant to be thankful for what we have been given

and yet in the same breath, you've said it's up to the individual. I AM thankful for the opportunityto access reproductive technology because for me, it IS a need. i would be ecstatic to not need to access it ever. i AM thankful for the sake of my friends that they've not had to go through this. i just want other people to be equally thankful for the blessing they have in being able to conceive naturally, and not to take away from those in genuine NEED for a WANT that is highly unlikely to be fulfilled via IVF.

in Australia, this is entirely hypothetical - we have a medical system with ethics committees that are smart enough to stop this sort of practice taking place. but overseas, this isn't necessarily the case, and it scares me to think where it will lead...


Kelly, i know this topic has gone off point from what you started it out as, and i'm sorry if i have contributed to that in any way. i am just passionate about making sure people understand this from the POV of a long termer...

[sushee]

Well said, BG.

This was never going to be as easy as voting and not explaining why you voted the way you did. It is obvious to me now that many, many people not only have no idea about the workings of IVF, but are also blissfully ignorant (or have no empathy) for the those who suffer the kind of pain and despair that comes with long term infertility. I accept that that is the way the world works, and no matter how much I try to explain otherwise, there will be those who will never be able to understand more than they themselves have experienced. So yes, I believe all that can be said has been said in this thread.

[Visitor9]

As a seasoned IVF'er at this stage of my life do I find it insulting that fertile couples access IVF for twins...No I dont
But years ago whilst trying to fall pregnant month after month, I found alot of things insulting ,the parents that already had children accessing IVF and taking them to appointments or the the heavily pregnant woman that sat in the waiting room for the Fertility specialist /Obst. But I never bothered to look and see if there was "a story" that often is heartbreaking and really when looking at a waiting room how do you tell who is infertile. I know it has been debated that a child is not a need more of a desire. I know now that if my desire never eventuated that the want to live would of been no longer.
But after living IVF for the better part of 5 yrs and winning I am a lucky one. Some people will never see the other side of IVF when you can finally let it go.