Federal Budget tonight....

**Miss.September** · May 14th, 2014, 05:59 PM

I live in the same area as you Teni, well until recently anyway, and we've always paid for our GP visits.

**Phteven** · May 14th, 2014, 07:54 PM

It wouldn't matter a fat rat's arse who was in Govt, at some point we were going to have a budget that came down hard on middle class welfare and all the other areas they can cut spending because at some point our country's debt does have to be repaid.

I just don't see how a robust, well funded education system and universal health care is middle class welfare.
I'm down with reducing things like FTB but cutting spending on health care and education is saving money by not making any investments. If you don't invest for the future the future becomes impoverished.

**PumpkinZulu** · May 14th, 2014, 07:55 PM

I've also literally never paid for a doctors appointment. The first time I paid for any sort of medical care was with DD2's birth, when we hired private midwives. My mum was single and low income though, and we're now low income too, so I guess the HCC would be the factor there?

**sepata** · May 14th, 2014, 08:09 PM

This might be a bit of a silly question, but I've only started following politics recently. Take the deregulation of uni fees for example, can they be regulated again in future budgets? Or could the copay be removed to go back to full bulk billing? How likely or unlikely is it that the major changes could be gone in a couple of years or more, with this or a different govts future budget?

**onthefly** · May 14th, 2014, 08:12 PM

Robbing our children. Well, a birdie reckons that the $80bn cut is a ploy to motivate states to demand higher GST revenues, which makes sense. Wonder if the extra will end up back where it belongs, though.. :/
It's all just so much bastardry.
Almost everywhere round here bulk bills. Guess I'll have to raid the change jar next time

I absolutely believe in the importance of universal health care and this is just driving the wedge in further. Look at the shocking state of health in the US! And I've resigned myself to having to pay full, upfront university fees by the time my kids are that age (or they won't be able to go because we don't have the income). (It's all right for those politicians who got a 'free ride' when the government paid the lot!)

**Phteven** · May 14th, 2014, 08:17 PM

Also, the university fee thing is huge. The current Liberal leadership want to see an introduction of a US style fees structure for universities. I want to live in a country where children from low income backgrounds can aspire to university without spending the first 15 years of their career paying off crippling student debt.

ETA - yep, MsFly, it infuriates me that politicians who got a free ride through uni want my children to miss out if I don't start saving now.

**PumpkinZulu** · May 14th, 2014, 08:22 PM

Also, the university fee thing is huge. The current Liberal leadership want to see an introduction of a US style fees structure for universities. I want to live in a country where children from low income backgrounds can aspire to university without spending the first 15 years of their career paying off crippling student debt.

ETA - yep, MsFly, it infuriates me that politicians who got a free ride through uni want my children to miss out if I don't start saving now.

Yes! Joe Hockey et al keep spouting off about the age of entitlement ending, while sitting on careers obtained with degrees that were obtain for free. Alright for some.

**onthefly** · May 14th, 2014, 08:27 PM

I remember marching against fee hikes two decades ago. Bronwyn Bishop said we squealed like entitled pigs. Nothing much changes.

**Trillian** · May 14th, 2014, 09:47 PM

I just don't see how a robust, well funded education system and universal health care is middle class welfare.
I'm down with reducing things like FTB but cutting spending on health care and education is saving money by not making any investments. If you don't invest for the future the future becomes impoverished.

I didn't say anywhere that I agreed with cuts to health and education and I'm not lumping it in with middle class welfare. But if I had a dollar for every person online I've seen today whinge that their FTB is being cut I wouldn't have to worry about Tony's budget because I'd be rich. Cuts to University have been happening for a while though. Under the Rudd/Gillard Govt discounts for upfront payment of fees dropped from 20% (which it was when I started 4.5 years ago) to 10% and it will eventually be phased out. So even people with the capacity to pay for their degree upfront has been penalised with higher fees. Costs per unit of study have also gone up over the past 3 years as well.

I think that if you do a degree on finance (because this is what it is really), then you have to pay. I think the current HECS system in that you don't have to pay until you earn over a certain amount is ridiculous because some people actively avoid paying it by ensuring that the never earn over the threshold limit. I wouldn't ever like to see it go to a US system where only the wealthy get tertiary education and we have to start 'college funds' as soon as our kids are born, but something needs to be done to reign in some of that debt. I think it's arbitrary to argue that it's unfair for them to make changes to uni fee structures when they had a free uni education, because a similar argument could be put forward over how the past generation had to raise their kids without welfare payments such as baby bonuses, FTB and school kids bonus like we have now. To play devils advocate, it could also be suggested that a university degree is an optional extra and that we don't actually need one to do well financially in life.

And I do acknowledge that I post from a position of privilege as well.

**PumpkinZulu** · May 14th, 2014, 10:59 PM

To play devils advocate, it could also be suggested that a university degree is an optional extra and that we don't actually need one to do well financially in life.

I've got to heartily disagree with that. There was a time when making a decent living in life was as black and white as working very hard and being persistent. You know the story, "I was 17 and left school, put a letter in to the manager of X company, and they have me a job on the spot. I worked there for 35 years and now I'm a partner". It's a vicious cycle. You need experience to get a job, but you need to work to get the experience. You can't go into any sort of job anymore without some form of qualification, and you certainly can't do well financially in life without some form of education. If I went to get a job now, as a technically reasonably uneducated person, I'd be working shifts in fast food, maybe a part time or full time role if I was lucky. Maybe I could spend years working up to a manager role, but even then you are required to obtain qualifications and receive training along the way. I certainly can't see my family living comfortably, owning a home etc as non tertiary educated. Of course, that is just my opinion, but for me, having a degree means a much better chance at success, both personally and financially. The budget worries me a lot for this reason. Education should be one of the very, very last things to receive cuts.

**Lilly-Pilly** · May 14th, 2014, 11:15 PM

Pumpkin Zulu - I have a number of certificates and diplomas and I have never need to university. I have paid for private collages and have job where I have worked over 8 years as a manager with a company car etc. I worked my guts off to get there, but I never went to university.
So much now days is on the job training, school based trainee ships so students are finishing year 12 with a qualification in a range of different trades and careers.
Trainee ships and apprenticeships are so common these days, and give you a lot more realistic training and experience than any classroom can.
On the budget, I personally don't have much of an issue with it. I think people become so accustomed to hand outs that they forget that once upon a time you didn't get paid to have children - you budgeted and lived off one income and saves and lives within your means (speaking from experience when we got $800 for having a baby and that was about it!)
I know that's just one point, but I don't have an issue with having to pay a small fee for medical visits, and I actually agree that paying a fee to go to emergency is a good thing.
So many people I know personably who are whinging about the doc fees are drinkers or smokers, or people who wouldn't thing twice about spending money on take away or nights out or buying things everything they go out.
All just my opinion though

**Floweryfields** · May 15th, 2014, 07:49 AM

I too am another that has 'done well' and not been to university. I have some diploma's/certs yes, but definitely not a uni degree. Have I worked hard, very, but it is possible to do it. I know a lot of people who don't have uni quals and own homes and are financially secure. Many of us have really struggled to get to where we are, but it is possible to do it. And some of these people have average Joe jobs, working in the food industry or retail. Someone has to do these jobs too and the statement that if you do, you can't be successful is a tad offensive to me personally.

This budget was never going to be pretty, but a government can't continue to run a country with the debt we have - if I ran my home like that, I'd be bankrupted! There are some things they've cut which I don't agree with, but big cuts were always going to be a necessary evil.

**BlackCat** · May 15th, 2014, 07:55 AM

Pumpkin Zulu - I have a number of certificates and diplomas and I have never need to university. I have paid for private collages and have job where I have worked over 8 years as a manager with a company car etc. I worked my guts off to get there, but I never went to university.
So much now days is on the job training, school based trainee ships so students are finishing year 12 with a qualification in a range of different trades and careers.
Trainee ships and apprenticeships are so common these days, and give you a lot more realistic training and experience than any classroom can.
On the budget, I personally don't have much of an issue with it. I think people become so accustomed to hand outs that they forget that once upon a time you didn't get paid to have children - you budgeted and lived off one income and saves and lives within your means (speaking from experience when we got $800 for having a baby and that was about it!)
I know that's just one point, but I don't have an issue with having to pay a small fee for medical visits, and I actually agree that paying a fee to go to emergency is a good thing.
So many people I know personably who are whinging about the doc fees are drinkers or smokers, or people who wouldn't thing twice about spending money on take away or nights out or buying things everything they go out.
All just my opinion though

I already live off one income, I have no choice, these changes will mean i won't see my children very much at all because I will be working all the time and then they will be at their fathers. I will have to give up uni to do this not because of the uni changes but because their education and living expenses come before mine. I have the opportunity to earn far more than any welfare amount once i finish this degree (to which i already work in the industry for pittance because I'm still unqualified). But we have to live first. I could break the welfare need in this house if people would stop moving the goal posts on me. I didn't ask to be single i didn't ask to be poor, all I ask for is a hand up for a short time so that we may have a better future. At the moment our future looks bleak, I've read that the changes are to encourage people - women - into the work force, I'm already there plus studying plus parenting on my own. My best is just not good enough and quite honestly I'm terrified if this goes through. I'm frugal because we have to be I don't know what else to cut. I'm thankful I'm 30 at least if I'm fired I'll be right =/

**Miss.September** · May 15th, 2014, 08:03 AM

I too am another that has 'done well' and not been to university. I have some diploma's/certs yes, but definitely not a uni degree. Have I worked hard, very, but it is possible to do it. I know a lot of people who don't have uni quals and own homes and are financially secure. Many of us have really struggled to get to where we are, but it is possible to do it. And some of these people have average Joe jobs, working in the food industry or retail. Someone has to do these jobs too and the statement that if you do, you can't be successful is a tad offensive to me personally.

Completely agree. DH left school in year 11. No uni, went into a trade. He is now self employed, we had our mortgage and kids and while times get tough, it's always okay. Job security would have been no different for him if he had finished school and gone to uni.

I didn't go to uni either. I did a Tafe course in professional writing and editing and by the time I left to have kids, I was working for a children's education specialist doing their accounts and helping advise schools what literacy resources were beneficial in their classrooms and libraries. Experience led me there, not a uni degree. The only person in my immediate family who did go to uni still has no idea what he wants to do and at nearly 30, he's only just started work full time (in a job completely unrelated to any of his degrees and where a degree is unnecessary).

**wysiwyg** · May 15th, 2014, 08:04 AM

This budget was never going to be pretty, but a government can't continue to run a country with the debt we have - if I ran my home like that, I'd be bankrupted! There are some things they've cut which I don't agree with, but big cuts were always going to be a necessary evil.

This really isn't true - countries are not homes and their budgets do not need to be run as such. Many many economists actually believe that some level of debt is very good for the country - (many many countries run with debt and always have done - not just post GFC)

There is an article that elaborates on the above called "Australia’s economy is healthy, so how can there be a budget crisis?"

The last paragraph

While short term measures such as expenditure cuts and debt levies may have an impact on the size of the deficit, they cannot “fix” the economy. The economy is not in disarray, and long-term budget deficit and debt issues require well thought-out policy on the structure of taxation and expenditure.

Or have a read of the article on the guardian "This budget is a clear victory for Australia's 1%" - if there is a need for 'necessary evil' then it simply has not focused in the right places. 13 billion dollars is lost from tax revenue each year through negative gearing - a well structured plan to phase it out would give considerable long term savings (there is a good article on macro business "the negative gearing myth that just won't die - about why it wouldn't be a disaster for renters, peoples retirements etc etc.)

**Lilly-Pilly** · May 15th, 2014, 08:22 AM

Blackcat, I totally hear what you are saying, because I was in the exact same position as you 10 years ago. I was a single mum, living on my own in a big city with no family around at all and quit working 2 jobs so I could study because that was my only option to get ahead. I was on a ridiculously small amount of single parent income and not a lot more, and back then there was no $5000 baby bonus payments or anything like that.
My pension paid for my rent, petrol, food and if I was lucky, bills and nothing more (more often I was behind than breaking even) and it was the toughest time of my life. Like you, I had to send my daughter to day care or to a friends for big long days at a time to be in class, and I felt like a terrible mother and struggled on a daily basis.
But I guarantee it was all worth it in the end. I'll never forget the feeling of being able to buy something my daughter wanted without a second thought once I was qualified and had a job and a decent income, because for a long time even a $5 toy or treat was out of the question.
To study the course I did I had to at private fees upfront, cause university or tafe didn't offer the course, and I got myself into total debit to do so.
But like I said, I have an amazing job & we bought a house and things really do work out in the end.
But yes, it's hard and it's tough and it sucks, and I do understand

**onthefly** · May 15th, 2014, 08:37 AM

The average Australian household is run much, much worse than the government! $79,000 in debt for every person living in Australia. Household debt is not comparable to sovereign debt.

**Trillian** · May 15th, 2014, 08:58 AM

I've got to heartily disagree with that. There was a time when making a decent living in life was as black and white as working very hard and being persistent. You know the story, "I was 17 and left school, put a letter in to the manager of X company, and they have me a job on the spot. I worked there for 35 years and now I'm a partner". It's a vicious cycle. You need experience to get a job, but you need to work to get the experience. You can't go into any sort of job anymore without some form of qualification, and you certainly can't do well financially in life without some form of education. If I went to get a job now, as a technically reasonably uneducated person, I'd be working shifts in fast food, maybe a part time or full time role if I was lucky. Maybe I could spend years working up to a manager role, but even then you are required to obtain qualifications and receive training along the way. I certainly can't see my family living comfortably, owning a home etc as non tertiary educated. Of course, that is just my opinion, but for me, having a degree means a much better chance at success, both personally and financially. The budget worries me a lot for this reason. Education should be one of the very, very last things to receive cuts.

I agree and disagree with it. I thought it would be a good discussion point. One one hand I see it as optional because there are many, many people who do extremely well without a degree and from my own experience, DH and I own our farm, have very little debt (far less than the $79000 that was quoted

) and live quite comfortably and can afford to send our kids to boarding school - without a uni degree. It's only now at 40 that he's started his diesel fitters trade cert II and only then because he wants to do it, not that he needs to. I chose to do a uni degree because I wanted to become a teacher. I could have done other jobs that didn't require me to have a degree, but it's something I wanted to do so I was willing to pay the $20000+ for it.

On the other hand I know that some people can't do their jobs without a degree like nursing/medicine, teaching, accountancy, law etc. So in those situations you do need a degree. Doesn't mean that without it you won't do well in life, it just means that with it, you can do the job you really want to do and not settle for something else.

I don't think it helps anyone to make tertiary education unattainable because of the cost, but I don't think it should be free either. For that level of education there should be a fee attached to it because it's a specialised education.