Parenting after Miscarriage or Loss ~ March/April 2010

[Willow]

Bek - I will be back when I have time to reply

[Lee]

Michelle - sending you love and strength as you pay tribute and say goodbye to your beloved Greg tomorrow


Love Lee xoxoxoxoxox

[Michelle71]

Hi girls

Lee - Greg's funeral is on Thursday. The announcement is in the newspaper on Saturday and in the evening we are going to the football where a very special bunch of blokes will be wearing black armbands in a very special tribute. I am more honoured than I can say.

[Willow]

Whoops, double post.

[Willow]

Michelle - Enjoy the game tonight. I am sure it will be very emotional for you and the family. Thinking of you xxxooo

Bek - You poor thing It sounds like you are having a really rough time with Eva's sleep. I don't know how popular this opinion will be but I am trying to give you my honest feedback in the hope it will help. I am no expert by far, so take from this what you will. From what you have posted it seems to me that she has become very dependent on the breast for sleeping, a sleep association. I will make it very clear that I have no issue with babies feeding to sleep. If it works then that's awesome. Unfortunately it never has for any of my children, particularly during the day. At night, they have woken and fed so I guess this is technically feeding to sleep. But again, I can't say this has 'worked' long term because I have always found myself at the point where they are waking from habit/for wanting the comfort of a feed/not knowing how else to put themselves back to sleep and not from hunger (this becomes clear from the way they feed and in L's case, he got to the point where he would refuse to feed at all most of the time). I am now at that point with D and will need to come up with a plan for both of us to get a better night's sleep.

Can I ask why you are feeding her 3 times in the morning before her attempted first nap? If she is having a feed at 6am and breakfast that should be enough. I would cut out the 8.30am feed and the feed before she goes to bed. It sounds like she is 'snacking' a lot at the breast and again, I think this is very normal for a young baby, but at 9 months I would expect this less. What are these feeds like? Are they big, gulping, full feeds? D generally has a feed on waking, one after his morning nap before lunch, another after his afternoon nap and one at bedtime. He then usually has 1-2 feeds overnight (although sometimes up to 3 if we're having a 'bad' night). This isn't a routine or schedule I have put him on. All of my babies have had a very similar feeding pattern at this age after the introduction of solids.

With her bed time/afternoon nap feeds I would try and break it up a bit by offering her a feed, then something in between (story, cuddles, song) etc before trying to put her down. This will hopefully lessen her association between the boob and sleeping. I have heard that the NCSS book has great tips for this particular issue, but I have never read it myself.

I do not say any of this lightly, I KNOW how hard these issues are to address and have definitely fed a baby to get them to sleep because nothing else was working. But in Eva's case, I don't think feeding her is working either?

Also - you are not starving her. If she has had good weight gains, is generally content, and is eating solids, you are not starving her. How did she sleep after the bottle? Did it help or not?

Wrapping - I understand the heat because I've had babies in the middle of summer and both my boys run hot anyway, very hot sweaty babies. But f you are saying she is still startling in her sleep, I would definitely try wrapping. You can strip her down to her nappy and put a fan in her room if need be and use a very light muslin wrap. It will need to be big, at least 1m x 1m. Why do you say she hates it? Is it because she protests when you try to wrap her? It sounds like she protests at any time you try to put her to sleep, so it might be worth trying to work through that and see if the wrapping actually helps or not. I know most people would tell you she is too old to be wrapped but I disagree. For some babies, it really does make a huge difference to their sleep. Particularly babies who like to be held and rocked to sleep. It just makes them feel a bit more secure. I have been wrapping D with one arm out for quite a while now, since he started rolling and becoming more mobile in the cot. Last night tried wrapping him again firmly with both arms in. He woke once overnight It could be pure coincidence, but maybe not Maybe he is just a baby that needs to be snuggled in tight to have a good nights sleep. I will try again tonight and see what happens. He is a puzzling case my D...he has self settled pretty much from birth and generally sleeps very easily during the day. He was great at night too until the last 2 months when things have started to deteriorate. So I'm not sure what the answer might be with him. I am happy to feed him if that's what he needs but I am not so convinced that is the answer at this point. Very different to L who had difficultly sleeping from birth and just could not self settle consistently for a long time.

[butterfly_warrior]

Bek, I don't know that I'm much help with sleeping, but I did want to mention that Sam at nearly 16 months old is still being wrapped for his day sleeps. He doesn't need it at night, as he's usually more tired and much calmer after a bath and then a bottle - DH lays down with him on our bed and he goes to sleep without wrapping. But it MUST be DH - never me. If I have to get Sam down to sleep at night, I still need to wrap him. For day sleeps - he often hits a weird kind of hyper-state to indicate that he's tired, and wrapping him is the only way we can get him to stop and be still long enough to fall asleep. He protests, but it's just because he wants to keep running around and playing despite being tired. Once he's wrapped, he snuggles in and is happy to be rocked/cuddled to sleep in a quiet room with some soft music. I would definitely suggest trying the wrap again. We have some large lengths of cheesecloth and muslin that we use to wrap him - he still gets a bit sweaty (like all little boys, it seems) but it's nothing a big drink of water when he wakes up can't fix. For really hot days he'll sleep in our room with the fan or air conditioner on, or on the lounge with the main air conditioner rather than in his cot.

I've had to put all thoughts of IVF out of my head for a while. I don't think stopping my meds over winter is a good plan, so there's NOTHING that can happen until the weather starts to warm up again (and considering it hasn't really got cold yet, that's a long way away!). It's just way too much to contemplate right now - I have some work issues that I need to deal with when I get back after the holidays and I need to focus on that for now. Hopefully if I push it to the back of my mind, it won't be such a scary concept when the time comes - just thinking of the way the brain tends to work on things quietly in the background.

Michelle - thinking of you today . I know the game will be emotional, but I also hope that it is healing for you.

BW

[Willow]

I don't know that I'm much help with sleeping, as it seems we were lucky enough to get a good one.

BW - In the nicest possible way babe and with no ill feeling at all I just wanted to say that when you are seriously struggling with getting your baby to sleep, you are exhausted, your baby is exhausted and you feel like there is no light at the end of the tunnel, these sorts of comments really are hard to take. I KNOW that you meant absolutely no harm when making it but as the mum of a baby who doesn't sleep well, it can make you feel like you didn't get a 'good one' - I guess it is a very similar situation to when you're going through IVF and people talk about how easy it was for them to fall pregnant. Does that make sense?

[butterfly_warrior]

Sorry - it certainly wasn't meant in that way, but I can see how it would come across, despite all the best intentions on my part.

I have edited my post.

BW

[~Jayne~]

BEK & WILLOW _ What wonderful ideas & suggestions you had for Bek, Willow - good on you. I might also suggest Bek, that sometimes things don't work exactly perfect the first time, you need to give them a few goes to get Eva to realise what they mean - ie wrapping, or feeding & then a story before sleeping, & I know how exhausted you are, I can read it through your posts, but maybe try as best you can as do the feed, story, sleep solution for the next couple of sleeps & see if it gradually improves? I had issues with Claudia feeding to sleep all the time as well & so I had to implement this process & it didn't happen overnight, it certainly took a few times. I am stubborn though, very stubborn & it was a bit of a power-struggle, but we did get there eventually. Esp when you are so bone-tired & you know that just a quick suck on the breast & she will be out for the count, but overall, it's not the long-term solution - KWIM? I really wish I could help you out, I really do. I was utterly drained when Jessica was a bub so I know how you feel, but I feel so much more for your situation as you have the other 2 girls that need supervision as well.

BW - Cluck cluck my friend!

MICHELLE _ What a wonderful tribute the boys have lined up tonight. What a very special night for you, you have so many wonderful people looking out for you, I'm so glad to know that.

Love Jayne xx

[Freya]

Bek I have no advice really because we went through the same thing with Stellan and all that "fixed" it was time but I want to give you a I know how bloody hard it is with 2 other kids and feeling so exhausted. I really hope she turns a corner for you soon! FWIW, we've seen great changes in Stellan once he hit 12mths and went onto cows milk/no breastfeeding. He still wakes but only once sometimes twice and he usually settles ok. Thinking about it though, it could be because he is sharing a room with Jett. Could you maybe trial that with Eva and one of the other girls?
I think Willow has some great suggestions. I dont think your starving her either; but could it be the sucking on the bottle thats doing it? Because they may be a step in "weaning" her off feeding from you to sleep? Maybe give her a bottle of water to take to bed and she can drink that to sleep? We do this with Stellan; he takes a bottle of milk to bed and then has a bottle of water nearby. Often he will now drink it in the middle of the night. I feel bad about it because its like transferring one aide to another but it works and for now Im cool with that. Eventually we'll just take it off him and
replace it with a sippy cup.
I guess what Im trying to give you is hope. It does get better, I think 12mths is the magic mark and Miss E is not far off that. And the crazy thing is that now Stellan wont even sleep in our bed but 3mths ago he was still cosleeping and feeding to sleep! I cant even hold him while he is drinking his bottle. Often he wont even finish the bottle and I'll go in 10mins after bedtime and itll be 3/4 full and I'll have to put it back in the fridge.

I havent helped at all have I, sorry!

[LisaL]

Michelle - I will try to sneak a peak at the game tonight, you must be so touched.

Bek - definately try some of Willow's tips - she has pretty much covered everything. Natalya was up til 2am crying last night, she had 4 hours sleep and thats it til this afternoon, so I think ill be saving Willow's advice for me too in a little while.

Non Sydney girls - you can read Greg's notice online.

Hope your all well,
Lis xx

[BekZ]

Wow thanks everyone for your replies. Some excellent suggestions and plans. I know all of this but I am too damn tired to think about it all logically. Bel thank you so very much, your information has put all into perspective.

You know I don't know why I give her that 8.30am feed. I actually feed her all the time still. I think I am going to introduce a feed, play, sleep pattern. I actually think she is rejecting me trying to feed her to sleep because there are not a lot of days that she actually go to sleep feeding, despite me trying to get her to feed to sleep

I've kept a diary of her feeds and I still feed her 2/3 hourly regardless of whether she is asking for it or not. After 9 months of bfing I still don't have faith in my supply or I can't tell if she's got enough. When she feeds there is only one or two feeds in the day where I can hear the flow, other times I wonder if there is any milk coming out at all. I don't feel my milk coming in at all these days either.

Re the bottle: I was shocked when she took the bottle because up until now she has rejected it and wouldn't have a bar. But the other night she just took it and drank 120mls and was looking for more. She actually slept for 4 hours after that.

As for her weight gain, she has only put on 500gms in 3 months. But she is alert and happy all the time.


Jayne - LOL on the stubborn comment. I guess I need to grit my teeth and just get the job done lol. I think consistency is the key here.

Freya - I might try the water in a bottle idea. She won't take a dummy so maybe this might work. I am not sure about moving her to Loren's room because Loren has just started to sleep better and I ain't rockin that boat lol.

Eva is still in our room, so you think moving her would make a difference?

Re wrapping: Well I suck at wrapping. I just tried wrapping her before her sleep and she protested like no tomorrow but I wrapped her once she was asleep and so far (touch wood) she has woken at all for 40 mins and this might be a good trick to keep her asleep.

BW - My first born was an awesome sleeper. They've got progressively worse the more I have lol..I am not having any more because I am not a good baby whisper. Good on you for putting the IVF journey on hold. You've got to feel ready and you are looking after yourself by putting plans on hold.

Michelle - What a lovely tribute. Enjoy your boys night out at the footy. I will be thinking about you.

I gotta go because my girls are arguing again. Thank you , thank you all so much for your advice..I had tears reading your suggestions. Yes I am really that tired and emotional.

BTW - Miss Loren has toilet trained over the last 3 days..no accidents, no fear of the toilet, taking her own pants off and running for the loo.

[~Jayne~]

Lisa - how do I see the notices online?

[~Jayne~]

Thanks to Google, I have found it. xx

[kellym]

Michelle - Enjoy the footy tonight, I'm sure it will be extremely difficult for you all but what an honour!!! I'm so glad you've got lots of loving and supportive people around you.. Greg sure was a lucky man to have so many incredible people that care so much about him... and you!

Bek - Wow, there have been some great suggestions for you already and I don't think I can add too much. DS wasn't the best sleeper either and it's so hard when you feel so crappy all the time (and I didn't have any other kids running around)!! Like Jayne said though, my biggest piece of advice is to pick out a few things you want to try and be patient (which is incredibly hard when you're sleep deprived)! It does take time for them to adjust and you have to keep at it and be consistent!! Just my two cents worth!

Jayne - Enjoy Hong Kong!!!

BW - I'm glad you've got a plan of attack... it sounds like the wait over winter might be just what you need to get your head around it all... it's very exciting though!!!

Freya - hows everything going in your household... hope the antibiotics did the trick!

Well... I'm having a few problems getting DS to have a day sleep. He's nearly 3 now and I'm starting to accept that he may not need a day sleep anymore, but by about 4pm, he's a nightmare!!! Today has been ok.. he started getting bad at about 3pm and then he just came over with his blankies and teddy, layed down on my lap and fell asleep... at about 3.30pm. Yesterday, he fell asleep in the car and then had a monster sleep but didn't go to bed last night until after 9pm.. and I'm worried today will be the same, because he's sleeping so late. It's not a big deal but the other day, he fell asleep on the couch at 5pm... crazy! I've had to keep waking him and trying to get through dinner and then get him to bed... not sure what to do... I hate waking him. And I just can't get him down any earlier!! Just a bit frustrating when I'm feeling so crappy!

Anyway, other than that, I'm doing ok.. surprisingly. Starting to panic just a little about my scan on Tuesday but I've still had m/s on and off so I'm feeling a little more positive. I hope I'm not setting myself up for some major disappointment. Can't do anything about it anyway, so will just keep plodding along. Have had the laziest day ever today and I love it... unfortunately the house is an absolute mess though, so really should tidy up while DS is asleep.

Kel xxx

[Willow]

Bek - Keep practising your wrapping! It does take some time to master it. I still can't get mine as firm as I'd like. You can practise on a teddy if you have one How has she slept today?

Kelly - My DD dropped her day sleep at about 3 yrs 3 months. In the end I just accepted it, introduced a 'rest' time during the day ie lying down with a book, coluring, watching a movie, anything quiet and calm really and she coped fine with it. L is almost 2.5 and to be honest, I'm amazed we've made it this far with good day sleeps! He has come such a loooong way and has now been a great sleeper for far longer than he was a poor sleeper.

Speaking of boy wonder...have just gotten home from the hospital. Took one dive off the couch too many and split his head open Seriously, I'm surprised it's taken this long to happen. Thankfully it's not too bad and we've been superglued and steri stripped back together.

[mako]

Bek Willow and the others have offered some great advice. Try and persist with the wrapping. The weather will start to cool down soon and she won't be as hot and it might help the startle reflex too. Anyway I just want to let you know that you aren't the only one in here who fed their 9 month old as often as you have been. I too did the same thing with DS. I'm not too sure why I did that but I did You haven't been starving Miss E either so please don't beat yourself up on that one
I know I haven't helped you at all but just wanted to let you know you aren't alone in what you have been doing

Michelle I watched the beginning of the game and thought it was a beautiful gesture on the majority of the team's part. I wanted to watch the whole game but we were at the IL's and DS needed to come home to bed I've been thinking of you

Willow I hope the little guy isn't feeling too worse for wear tonight after his incident. Gotta love glue

Kelly I'll be thinking of you on Tuesday.

Jayne Enjoy Hong Kong. How are the girls coping with the flights? Oh and that dinner you described from the other night sounds devine

Not much going on here atm apart from DS becoming cheekier by the minute but is so very cute at the same time lol. Oh and he's also a bit of a parrot as in he's copying everything that comes out of DH and my mouth lol We so have to be very careful in what we say He's also resorted to calling DH and me by our 1st names if we don't answer to Mum or Dad straight away :rofl"

[Bun]

Hi all. Well, we made it to Perth in one piece and I have finally had time to pop online and see how you are all going. The trip went surprisingly well, the kids were pretty good and DD actually loved the flight - she was so excited to get her own seat and meal. I did come prepared though - portable DVD player, new colouring book, crayons and stickers, toys, etc. DS was quite unsettled on the flight and I was exhausted by the time I got here, but we made it!

Michelle - you are constantly in my thoughts. I hope you had a good time at the footy, what a lovely gesture. I was so happy to read that the scan went well and that the basket was there when you got home. I love that you have a sense of black humour. And the name you have chosen for Omar is just beautiful.

mako - how are you doing hun?

Lisa - hehe on DD1 feeding her dolly. My DD does this too and it cracks me up!! How is the beautiful Natalya going? I LOVE the name.

Lee - thank you so much for offering advice to us; I'm sure it is wonderful for Michelle to have someone who understands what she is going through. I read the report on the coroner's findings re Luc and I can hardly believe what you have been through, it is just devastating. It actually made me think a lot about right after DS was born. His breathing was also quite raspy and the paed had directed that he be attached to a monitor that measured his oxygen stats for 12 hours after he was born, and the monitor's alarm kept sounding. The midwife said that the pads weren't attached to him properly and kept trying to attach them better and I wasn't worried (I think I was too out of it at that stage to worry). Then another midwife came in and said that she thought the alarm was going off because his stats actually WEREN'T good enough, and she called the paed back (but held the monitors to his foot for a while first to be sure). She was worried about rocking the boat if she doubted what the other (older) midwife thought but ended up calling the paed back. DS ended up in the special care nursery needing oxygen, so I feel very lucky that the other midwife was around and ended up standing up for herself or who knows what could have happened? Big sweetie.

Bek - big big to you hun. I had similar issues with DD's sleep and the sleep deprivation was a killer. She is only just starting to sleep through the night now. I tried it all as well and nothing seemed to work. With wrapping, I seriously wrap DS sooooo tight, it's like tying him up it a knot! Anything else and he gets out in about 2 seconds. The others have offered some great suggestions and I have little more to add, but just wanted to offer my support. I hope it improves for you soon, it must be so hard keeping up with the other two when you are getting so little sleep.

Jayne - sounds like you are having an amazing time on your trip, and the girls too. I love to hear how much they are enjoying things. Maybe we could meet up while I am in Perth if you get back next Sun? I am here until Thurs the 22nd and would love to meet you if you have the time?

Willow - the poor little tacker!! I have so much to learn about being mum to a boy. DD is such a typical little girl and never takes risks or really hurts herself but I think DS may be another matter when he gets older!

Kelly - glad to hear you are getting some m/s (YKWIM!) I hope it isn't too bad but hangs around for reassurance. I will be thinking of you on Tues and will try to log on when I can to see how it went.

Anyway, I must go guys as Mum wants her puter back! I will try to pop in again later when I get a a chance. Hi to everyone I didn't get time to write persies to, thinking of you all.