Do you do time out or the naughty spot?

[sloane]

well, i don't think you should give a stuff what the other people are thinking! but i do think you should do what feels right to you & what you think will benefit your DS in the long run. fwiw, i think lots of children at our LOs age do similar things - especially the boys. i know it doesn't help you feeling terrible - a friend who has a little girl that gets a bit boisterous said to me that she feels so bad it's like it was an extension of her own arm that pushed or hit another child. that summed it up perfectly for me - i feel terrible every time it happens esp when my DS is a loving, gentle little person for the most part.

i think it's tough until they can communicate a bit better to really know that they understand why what they did was wrong but i do think it's important to be consistent in your approach & staying calm & not yelling is a good example to your DS on how to handle a situation & stays focused on the issue rather than becoming an emotion-charged yelling match. i try to give DS alternative courses of action as well - if i can see that a push has resulted from frustration, then i try to explain how he could have just (for eg) said no or please move etc. i really hope it's sinking in!

i think it's even harder to deal with when you are filled with PG hormones as well.

[MamaPan]

I have read parts of 123 magic. it is about remaining calm and counting and then having consequences. but i will let someone who has gone through it explain it more eloquently!

for me, i have had diff approaches with DS1 and DS2, just due to their personalities. i didnt use timeout or anything like that with DS1 at that age but he was totaly emotional and v hardly did anything that may need it. he was pretty easy (in hindsight) and i used to remove him and tell him what he had done and why we dont do that etc

DS2, who is 2.5 as well is another case... he is much more testing and pushes lots of boundaries. he has also learned from ds1. I do take him to his room. i tell him what i want him to do and then count - if we get to 3 he goes to his room and tghen i get him and ask if he is ready for whatever we need him to do. he reacts well to being removed from the situation.if he does something totally unacceptable - he is removed straight away and i explain what he did and why it is wrong. this works well with him (would never have worked for DS1 though)

They have both been v advanced in speech and comprehension so i do a lot of explainming later - but i do think they need some space and time - rather than being 'talked at' when they are frsutrated, upset etc

Also positive reinforcement of what you do want is great - make a big song and dance over good sharing and nice behavior and ignore the bad (otr give morer attention to the person he hurt than to him). star charts/rewards/lots of praise - its more fun too.

I also think at this age it can be about control for them - so sometimes setting expectations. e.g. someone is coming over and they will want toplay with your toys. they wont take them home, they are still yours but they will use them while they are here. lets get some out that you are happy for them to play with. (then go over that a bit when theya re there)

[Beach Mama]

I have read parts of 123 magic. it is about remaining calm and counting and then having consequences. but i will let someone who has gone through it explain it more eloquently!

Yep that is it in a nutshell - I know that there is a DVD series as well. I have the book but as mentioned earlier I need to re-read it! One thing that he mentions in it is that not every behaviour needs a long drawn out discussion and in depth D&M!! Sometimes they are naughty, know they have done something wrong, need to sit in time out away from whatever else is going on for a few minutes and then carry on again without needing the meaning of life/sharing/fighting explained!! Something along those lines anyway but it struck me because I overanalyse sometimes and need to realise that keeping it simple is the best case sometimes!

[onthefly]

I think you're handling this well! Truly. I agree yelling will not get you anywhere - you'll only be teaching another bad habit.
The CC ladies are probably right about this being a phase. And don't forget - there's a lag between comprehension and being able to act on things (or restrain themselves for that matter). Just because they understand, doesn't mean they can or will do as you ask.
The hitting is really hard one and I totally understand your frustration and anxiety about it! Here's a blog post that might give you a few ideas (and also validate your response so far).

Talking thigns through and leading by example takes time. You do have to do it over and over. And you will often get to the point where you think this is not working, my kid will never get it... and then they do. And they really, really get it. It's not a conditioned response to fear of punishment or striving to get a reward, it's actually them regulating themselves. So it's worth it. It just takes time. Be kind to yourself though - you're not a superhero so some days it might all be too much and that's ok. It doesn't mean you've failed or anything.

With regards to the hitting also, maybe consider diet too. Sometimes there's more than one thing going on.

ETA - I also think that when kids are worked up, talking to them right then can often just make it worse. And, even more important than letting them know something is wrong, is figuring out why they are acting out. There is always a reason.

[Laranna]

Yep that is it in a nutshell - I know that there is a DVD series as well. I have the book but as mentioned earlier I need to re-read it! One thing that he mentions in it is that not every behaviour needs a long drawn out discussion and in depth D&M!! Sometimes they are naughty, know they have done something wrong, need to sit in time out away from whatever else is going on for a few minutes and then carry on again without needing the meaning of life/sharing/fighting explained!! Something along those lines anyway but it struck me because I overanalyse sometimes and need to realise that keeping it simple is the best case sometimes!

Yep exactly that. The whole idea of it is to avoid the talk-persuade-argue-yell-smack syndrome. The idea is to use counting on the behaviours you want your child to stop (such as arguing, fighting, yelling, teasing, etc) and using praise and encouragement for start behaviours (brushing teeth, picking up toys, going to bed, etc). With the counting, the idea is to give the child a warning (that's 1), give him/her a chance to stop (that's 2) and if the child doesn't stop (that's 3) you give time out or a time out alternative (removal of favourite toy, earlier bedtime, etc). And the time out length is 1 minute for every year of age. So a 3 year old would get a 3 minute time out.

At the end of the day when they are so young, explanations get lost on them. They are after all just kids and sometimes trying to explain things to them, it's like I'm trying to explain something to an adult which is just frustrating for me and annoying for them. For example, DS knows it's good to share his toys with his sister so I don't really need to give him an explanation each time he takes toys off her, it's time out. It's enough to give everyone a chance to refocus.

[fionas]

TBH I've never really got the time out or naughty corner thing. When DD was being naughty there is just no way she would stand in a naughty corner and where would we do time out other than in another room that she could get out of. Never made sense to me. I have an ongoing joke with a friend that the kids who will stand in a naughty corner ain't really naughty to start with.

I probably did/do a mixture of the 1-2-3 (without realising) and the consequences. She's a bit older than your DS but she's had it drummed into her that a) you say sorry if you do the wrong thing and b) you don't hit even if someone hits you first.

I say sorry to her if I've yelled at her and I explain why - "mummy was tired but it was still the wrong thing to do etc. etc."

In hindsight, at 2.5 she was still so little and her behaviour (eg. tantrums when she wasn't getting her own way) has changed a lot just because she's a little older.

I think as long as there's progress and if most of the time they're a 'nice' kid, then don't stress too much (I know it's really hard not to).

[Starter1]

TBH I've never really got the time out or naughty corner thing. When DD was being naughty there is just no way she would stand in a naughty corner and where would we do time out other than in another room that she could get out of. Never made sense to me. I have an ongoing joke with a friend that the kids who will stand in a naughty corner ain't really naughty to start with.

This has always been my view also. I never really understood why a kid who was being 'naughty' would be happy enough to stand in a corner, or sit in a room quietly.

[NaeNae]

Its really interesting reading the responses here, DD has started acting out and has been demonstrating rough play with me and the baby but I figured this is her way of processing feelings she doesn't understand - jealousy, resentment etc.

I guess I grew up with parents who did the 1-2-3magic type style of parenting ...... and from MY experience as the "naughty child" it was completely ineffective. I copped so many wooden spoons broken over me that it wasn't funny. If your going to teach a child consequences to actions it needs to be done immediately not 2 warnings then strike. Sorry for the reference but you don't say to a naughty puppy 1-2-3NO, there is the "naughty" behaviour then correction straight away.

You can be firm and still be kind about it but whatever you choose to do it needs to be consistant. Good Luck hun I hope you find the right method for you.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Miss E, I've never done naughty corners or time out and don't intend to. Pinky McKay is a great read for alternative and compassionate responses to a child's brain fizzle Also, Alfie Kohn has a very useful website with informative articles that are backed up by empirical research. As does Robin Grille's work.
They are absorbing so much every day in their development at this time, that adding shame and isolation to the mix makes this time of learning so much harder to navigate for them.
When we clash with them it's like any other relationship - needs aren't being met and communication isn't effective. In a child's case it's because their communication skills are undeveloped for speech and they are telling us in other ways that something is up. The biggest thing I remember at this age in my kids is that they really want to be understood (don't we all?), even if we can't get what we want, so finding out what's wrong first, acknowledging it next, then coming to a resolution that suits both parties worked far better for our continuing relationship than any punitive measure would have.
I've never set up any 'consequences', either - DS learns from consequences such as having me be hurt or sad, or his sister hurt. Those are huge consequences for little people, especially when they really don't set out to cause unhappiness.
My DD is just over 2yo and I find I can give her explanations of things and she picks up the gist to understand me. When she's not receptive to explanations it's because whatever is going on is big enough in her head to override everything else and then it's my job to figure that out and give her the time and effort to help her regulate.
We're not born to emotionally self-regulate, it's something we learn, and we don't learn to acknowledge our feelings and work on solutions by being put in naughty corners or left in isolation as small people. We learn it from those around us and bigger than us. Naughty corners, time outs and any other punishments encourage kids to think about themselves and their own hurt feelings, rather than how they have affected anyone else. Even if they do have some notion of how they have affected someone else they are not being taught how to work through it, other than being taught how to avoid the real issue. The real issue is usually to do with how they have done something that has made things harder for the other person, hurt them, made them scared etc. If we want them to avoid that happening again then it needs to be addressed then and there, and the appropriate responses modelled. For ages now my DD will do something to DS, see his sad reaction and then go and hug him saying "So So" (i.e. sorry), and not because I've told her to do it, but because that's what she sees happen between DS and I, DS and dad and me and her if I've done something to her without thinking.
Most of it is modelling. It takes longer and lasts longer. Punitive responses may 'work' in the short term, and create other problems that affect their future human interactions. Yes, they'll still love you, they'll still trust you, but not because of naughty corners and time outs - just because kids are so forgiving and have generous spirits. Until we erode them enough that by the time they are teenagers they see no need to believe that our way of dealing with them is useful or respectful of them, so they take their chances with the outside world with the tools we have taught them.
The people I know who have teenagers either tell me that I have to smack, use naughty corners, use time outs (yes, some do! There are plenty of those well-meaning people around!!), or they say that they love what I'm doing with my kids and that they did the same kinds of things. The former example then always follows that up with "then they are teenagers and they become awful", and the latter don't have to say anything at all because I know the kinds of mutually respectful and genuinely beautiful relationships they have with their current teenagers.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Go with your gut and disregard the attitudes and words of people who tell you things that don't sit right with YOU and how you want to set up relationships with YOUR kids.
From what you have written I don't think the 'conventional wisdom' will honour you or your intentions for your kids.
Go with logic and love

[Laranna]

I guess I grew up with parents who did the 1-2-3magic type style of parenting ...... and from MY experience as the "naughty child" it was completely ineffective. I copped so many wooden spoons broken over me that it wasn't funny. If your going to teach a child consequences to actions it needs to be done immediately not 2 warnings then strike. Sorry for the reference but you don't say to a naughty puppy 1-2-3NO, there is the "naughty" behaviour then correction straight away.

FYI 1-2-3 Magic doesn't actually advocate hitting or smacking, it's idea is to not use hitting and smacking (which are essentially adult temper tantrums).

Also, you don't have to count to 3 every time. For example, if DS pushes DD I will say 'That's 3 - time out'. No warning, but an immediate consequence that he has to have a break from playing with whatever they were playing with/doing. He goes to his room and he may not be quiet, he may not sit still, he doesn't have to, it's just a time out from the situation.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I guess I've use a 'time out' of sorts - I have taken both my child AND I out of the situation, in order to have a talk about what's happened. I never send my child away to be on their own to process the situation, because I don't think it's developmentally appropriate or fair. HTH

[Laranna]

Yeah that's how I see it Mayaness, using 1,2,3 time out as a warning and break from the situation for everyone to have a breather (including me sometimes! ).

Although, I've eased off on the explanations because at age 3, they just go over DS's head. I started off using a 'time-out' corner (don't like using the term 'naughty corner' bit too negative for me) but just ended up getting frustrated when he wouldn't stay there. Sending him to his room where he can read a book, play with some lego or another toy, etc seems to be quite effective. Or instead of time out I do an alternative like no lego for one day or we won't be going to the park this afternoon, kinda like removal of priveleges.

If it's something serious like fighting, hitting, etc then I give the explanation. But if it's something like climbing up the kitchen drawers for example, he's been told many times not to do it so I don't give any explanation, just a warning. The extent of my explanations come with the initial "that's 1". For example, "Stop running through the house it's dangerous if you bump into someone or something - that's 1". If he doesn't stop, I just say "that's 2", and then if he still doesn't stop "That's 3 - time out". DS gets 3 minutes (one minute for each year of age), which seems to be ample time for him.

And for every negative action I give (like every time out) I try and make sure I give at least 5 positive reinforcements like praising, etc. Some days it just seems like you're saying no to them all day long and it can become quite depressing constantly saying no and stop so making sure we have lots of praise and fun and thank you's and showing appreciation makes for happier days and (hopefully) a good relationship with each other.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I give explanations still, and my eldest is 5yo. I give him less repetitions and I realise that he'll still need repetition for a while. Making an arbitrary time marker for when I stop giving repetitions doesn't make sense to me - if he needs it he needs it, and I accepted a long time ago that I'd be getting repetitive! I don't give 'warnings' in that sense, though I will let DS know how I'm starting to feel and the options open to him for changing that outcome or staying on that tack of action, without it sounding threatening. If I say we're going to leave somewhere as a result of him not listening to people so that everyone feels happy and safe then that's what I do once I realise he's just beyond making peace-making decisions. He deserves my explanations, he's still learning so much about the world and how to negotiate.
I rarely just say 'no' and expect them to understand exactly what I mean by that, because 'no' is not enough, though I was brought up to believe it was. It isn't respectful, IMO - I'd hate it if I was doing something and another person told me 'no' with nothing else in it. In fact, some people HAVE done this and it's ended badly - on a fireground I can accept that, because it's going to be in context and under extreme pressure, but I've had officers try that punitive crap with me and I lost so much respect for them. As an aside, since I left that brigade I have heard stories of treatment of members becoming more and more power-based and I think it's disgusting because they are now doing it to the Juniors...not exactly teaching them effective leadership! It all ties in with how I feel about teaching co-operation.
And, as I said, if DS is being taken out of a situation I go with him. It happens so rarely that I think I may have done it once this year. I've done yelling and so want to dispense with it, and I'm glad I haven't resorted to sending him off alone.
I don't do praise. For reasons Alfie Kohn articulates far better than I can, and he has an article on it specifically. It always sat ill with me and when I read his work it hit the nail on the head, made me cry and put words to feelings I had when I remembered my mum, in particular, using praise. Really, my genuine appreciation of DS's actions are reward enough, because he can see how his actions have helped and how that ends up with a happier mama. I don't threaten that I'll be angry or unhappy and I don't praise him in order to manipulate him into doing the action again. I don't want him to do things for my approval, but for the bigger picture of harmony, easier life and more time to have fun and enjoy each other. This is why doing it 'my' way (and plenty of others'!) takes longer and has more benefit over a life span, because it teaches the kids about intrinsic rewards - those that can't be revoked or bargained for, or induced by the promise of praise
I've had a long time to think about this, and I do get accused of 'over-thinking' it. I figured that it was best to 'over-think' it when DS was very little and have it come more easily to me when the going got tough and it has served me well. I still fall by the wayside (like I said, my vice is yelling, which snuck up on me and into the toolbox ) and the stuff I really thought about just doesn't happen because I trained brain out of it early on. It's challenging, that's for sure. The kids are worth the effort.
This is all stuff you learn in Parent Effectiveness Training that I'd love to get more formal education on (just finished my degree, it can wait a little longer!), and Alfie Kohn and Robin Grille borrow heavily from him in their writing.
Parenting doesn't have to be the minefield others make it out to be. Keeping the kids happy is also important, much to the disgust of those raised in the 50s when kids really weren't respected or considered important enough to tell parents that their actions affected their children into adulthood. The quintessential "but I turned out OK" generation who perpetuate war, punitive justice systems and inequality in legislation "OK" by what standard? Not by mine, anyway!
I know lots of people steadfastly stick to the praise and reward way of doing things, because it's what they know, or it's better than the abuse they copped as children. There's no rule that says you can't change your approach at any time and revise it in accordance with something that serves everyone better and respects the growing and absorbent spirits

[onthefly]

We do time-ins together to talk about what happened. what DS did, and what happened next and what might he do differently next time. it takes time. a lot of time. but even at 3 he was getting this.it's jut small building blocks we stack up over time to work toward our goal of consideration and respect of others, etc.

And basically what Mayaness said I haven't actually read Kohn or others, but read the PET book when DS was little. Very, very helpful. And I also kind of agree that overthinking is good sometimes. It helps to unlearn 'crap' before actually learning to tune in with my kids and myself.

[Beach Mama]

I rarely just say 'no' and expect them to understand exactly what I mean by that, because 'no' is not enough, though I was brought up to believe it was. It isn't respectful, IMO - I'd hate it if I was doing something and another person told me 'no' with nothing else in it.

I agree but there are times when it wouldn't need the over thinking/explaining. Here are a few example of what I meant with the over explainin/thinking.

Can I have ice-cream? It's nearly dinner time so no not until after dinner. Continue to ask for it and it get's counted - no further explanation needed - get to 3 and it's time out (or in for us with us)
Hit your brother/sister other serious behaviours are 3 straight away with time out/in.
Iz can you clean up your toys please? Doesn't get done for whatever reason - get's counted, so she gets a few chances to do it before time out.... It's not about giving them time to keep doing the bad behaviour - it actually reiterates that we have asked reasonably for something to be done and if it doesn't get done there will be a consequence. For DD being 4.5 - there is no need to over explain WHY we need her toys picked up, she knows it's messy, needs to be done prior to dinner. Not sure if that makes sense.

Naenae - Not sure if that make sense but as for the 123 - it gives them time to correct the behaviour or whining, but if the behaviour is serious then it's 3 right away.

[onthefly]

I think though the thing that's missing here is understanding your child's motivation in behaving this way, or other contributing factors.

This morning DD was sitting on one of those fold out kiddy couches when DS came along and pushed her over. Her head got a good thunking. I was sorely tempted to yell at him and send him to his room
Instead I took him aside and talked to him about this. He wasn't too happy to be taken away from his game and got quite upset - a sure sign he needed food and/or water. So I decided i'd better sort that out before he did anything else to his sister.
Once he was calmed down, he was able to tell me why he did this. He wasn't actually trying to be rough with her, just oblivious. He wanted to put something under the couch she was sitting on and she was simply in the way. Consideration for others is something we are currently working on teaching DS... it's a tough one!

[Smoke Jaguar]

Been through the ice-cream/chockies/lollies/sweet things before dinner here! I explain that he needs to eat the food that helps his body work properly first, then the nice stuff that only makes his tongue feel nice after, if there's still room for it (and wouldn'tchya know it, there always is!). If he asks again I say "Can you tell me what I just told you about eating x before dinner?", and if he gets it mixed up we talk about it again. If he keeps asking after that I say "I already told you why you can't eat it before dinner so if you ask any more I'm not going to answer because you already know". It usually doesn't get to that final stage, and if it does he resigns himself. I mean, WE know why ice cream before dinner is no good after a lifetime of knowing (though not when we were little, we put it together when we were a lot older, I bet), and kids need to be told what the reasons are and have it reiterated from time to time. Kids learn their world by repetition, not by 1-2-3's. That only teaches them blind obedience. Obedience is not my ultimate aim, understanding and cooperation is.
MadB - it's so often like that, isn't it? In horseriding we say "back to basics", and in human terms we say KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid)! It's always something really basic that's going on when others are getting hurt! Of course their aim isn't to hurt someone else, that's always a side-effect. DS now refers to it as 'being horrified' when DD accidentally hurts him, ever since the time his pony kicked him in the belly and I explained that she would have been worried about something, not known just where he was and that if she knew that she had hurt her boy she'd be horrified. So, when he explained to DP what happened, he told him that his pony kicked him and was horrified!
It is so worth the time to find the motivations behind behaviours, because 'behaviour' is a symptom of what's going on, it's not an end in itself. When you take the time to communicate with them about what's driven them to do something you take your relationship to a rich new level between the two of you

[onthefly]

Been through the ice-cream/chockies/lollies/sweet things before dinner here! I explain that he needs to eat the food that helps his body work properly first, then the nice stuff that only makes his tongue feel nice after, if there's still room for it (and wouldn'tchya know it, there always is!). If he asks again I say "Can you tell me what I just told you about eating x before dinner?", and if he gets it mixed up we talk about it again. If he keeps asking after that I say "I already told you why you can't eat it before dinner so if you ask any more I'm not going to answer because you already know". It usually doesn't get to that final stage, and if it does he resigns himself. I mean, WE know why ice cream before dinner is no good after a lifetime of knowing (though not when we were little, we put it together when we were a lot older, I bet), and kids need to be told what the reasons are and have it reiterated from time to time.

same

It is funny the things I say to DD though - guess I'm already in this habit. I'll have to make it a bit simpler for her, though, I think.