Learning an instrument - questions for musicians or parents of kids who are musical

[Santosha]

We're a few year off considering this for our kids, but have been beginning to think about it a lot and would love to hear other's thoughts...

I started piano lessons at age 5 and continued these until I was 15. I had lessons on a broad range of other instruments throughout primary and secondary, my parents responding to feedback from teachers that I had an unusually good ear and lots of potential, but I HATED it. I was bullied into practicing (and was generally quite averse to it and wanted to be off reading or playing), made to do exams that didn't hold any value for me and play music that I go no pleasure from. Ultimately, I have a grand piano, a collection of other instruments and no ability to play much at all which I find immensely frustrating and guilt-inspiring. My parents must have spent tens of thousands... I spent HOURS. But the process was such a negative one, that even though I believe tht I did have potential to become quite adept, it all went nowhere.

I do wonder if I can do it different for our kids and where the balance lies between 'pushing' to achieve discipline and sufficient practice, and allowing children to follow their own interests and motivation.

So, if you play an instrument well, your child does, or you have an opinion I'm interested to know...

- what age would you start?
- what instruments are best to start with?
- do you have opinions or experience with models of learning?
- do you need to insist on or push for daily practice? I imagine that few children volunteer to screech away at an amateur and tuneless 'twinkle twinkle' for 30 mins a day, but when learning an instrument is such a technical skill, this level of practice is required to make it happen. You have to be a bit rubbish, and put in a whole lot of hard yards to become accomplished. Can this be achieved in a 'gentle', respectful or child-led way?
- anything to add on your experience?

TIA!

[Arcadia]

I play flute and was inspired by a friend of my dads who used to come play at my house (my dad played piano and regularly had other musicians over).

I begged to play and wasn't allowed to start until my arms could reach, so about 8. I practiced every day and quickly progressed. I did exams and eisteddfods but also did music for HSC. I still play but I also really really wish I had learnt piano because my knowledge of chords and musicianship has been hampered by playing only a melodic instrument

In contrast my older sister played piano from five and was forced to practice and hated it. She still gets nervous playing piano despite loads of talent and thousands of dollars of tuition and thousands of hours playing.

In short I think the motivation needs to come from the child. I used to play to the trees in the garden and help them grow. I loved playing my flute and practice was a joy. I don't believe my sister learnt anything from being forced to practice except resentment for the instrument.

Child-led is the best way to go. Encourage, inspire and facilitate learning, but don't force.

[Rivlas]

Both my girls are very musical and both did it as a VCE subject.

An important thing to look for is ability. If they love dancing to music, sway to songs etc then look at lessons. Nothing is worse than trying to make a tone deaf child learn an instrument.

Find out if the school has a music program. A teacher usually comes in once a week and gives lessons. This way you can try a couple instruments to see what they like. You will need to encourage practice but if they really want to learn they will practice, especially at the start. Also don't over do the practice as this can quickly make them loose their love of learning. It doesn't matter if they miss a night or two as long as they practice the other nights.

[OceanPrincess]

I started piano lessons at age 5 and continued these until I was 15. I had lessons on a broad range of other instruments throughout primary and secondary, my parents responding to feedback from teachers that I had an unusually good ear and lots of potential, but I HATED it. I was bullied into practicing (and was generally quite averse to it and wanted to be off reading or playing), made to do exams that didn't hold any value for me and play music that I go no pleasure from. Ultimately, I have a grand piano, a collection of other instruments and no ability to play much at all which I find immensely frustrating and guilt-inspiring. My parents must have spent tens of thousands... I spent HOURS. But the process was such a negative one, that even though I believe tht I did have potential to become quite adept, it all went nowhere.

This is me. I could have written that exact same paragraph. And I'm wondering the same thing.

I did the piano thing, like you, as I said. I also chose to start flute when I was in year seven (13) and I was doing exams etc. But I didn't love it any more than the piano.

I also started singing at the same time, year seven. This I loved. I stopped piano at grade seven, which I did in year 11. I had vague thoughts of doing VCE music and doing grade 8 piano but quickly realised I needed much more dedication to achieve a good result for grade 8 piano. I never did singing lessons or anything but I sang with a large choir and I LOVED it. That's where I found my groove. I'd learn lyrics willingly in my own time. I can still sing you the entire Psalm 23

So I'm enrolling my DD in the same choir next year. I wish I'd started in the choir sooner, so I'm giving her that chance. I'll see how she enjoys it. I want her to learn piano and/or music theory, as the one thing I appreciate from my piano and theory lessons is that I can read music and sight-sing almost anything. I've also got a great ear for harmonies. How much of that is learned and how much is natural talent, I don't know but I want to give her that foundation that I've had. So she'll start piano - but not til a bit later.

I used to play to the trees in the garden and help them grow. I loved playing my flute and practice was a joy. I don't believe my sister learnt anything from being forced to practice except resentment for the instrument.

Child-led is the best way to go. Encourage, inspire and facilitate learning, but don't force.

This is beautiful, Arcadia. Lovely. Hopefully I can grow the same love for music in my children.

[JLeigh29]

Just a slightly different perspective...

The first instrument I learned was recorder when I was 7. I played all through primary school.

I learned flute from grade four through to grade 12. I begged and begged to be able to start. I have no musical talent whatsoever, and am pretty much tone deaf. But i love music. For the most part, I really enjoyed playing at my amateur level, practising whenever the fancy took me (sometimes ten minutes a week, other times every day for hours). I had lessons as school, was in the school band and did private lessons once a week until about grade 10. However, I refused to do exams and made it clear to my teachers and parents that I was doing this purely for my own enjoyment and there was to be no pressure. Having said this, the day I finished high school, I sold my flute. I wish I hadn't now, but it was more of a 'only dorks play flute' kind of thing.

I am so glad I learned an instrument, though I sometimes wish it was piano or guitar. I do wish I had some musical talent though. One day I will dig out my keyboard and re-teach myself what I knew. One day I will buy a guitar and learn 'Drunken Sailor'! If my parents hadn't let me play flute when I'd begged, despite my obvious lack of talent, I'd have resented them forever. If they'd pushed me, I'd have resented them too.

Arcadia said it beautifully.

[STARRYSKY]

I also did the recorder thing at school, loved it, could play anything as long as I had the music in front of me, at age 8 mum and dad took me to my first piano lesson, I also loved doing that, but every saturday morning got to be a grind, especially as I was only allowed to touch the piano for about 15mins a lesson...(the rest was theory) we did not have a piano at home so it was impossible for me to practise at home! (a bone of contention for me, that I was forever reminding my parents about!!) started piano lessons in a group setting at school in year 6, at LUNCH TIME! why such silly times??? I had much better things to be doing than sitting in a circle witha cardboard keyboard...
In year 7 I discovered an aunty of mine had been given a piano (passed down from her family) I used to get off my train home 6 stops early and go there every 2 nights to play, she had music books, lots of them and I had unrestricted access! I was in heaven! taught myself to play Fur Elise in 3 nights (part reading the notes I knew, mostly by ear)
My parents eventually got me a keyboard, (or were given it) but for me it just could never replicate the "piano experience" (very old style keyboard, none of this changing it to sound like a piano, it didnt, couldnt and never did measure up!!) I lost interest...

My parents never pressured me, I think sometimes if given more encouragement, maybe I would have done something with it...I can still kind of read music, which I am grateful for.

My partner, asked for an electric guitar at age 10, his dad bought him one and a small amp from Cashys, he never had a lesson, but by age 13 was jamming with all the neighbours in the street, could play anything after hearing it once or twice. He will and can now pick up any instrument and play it by ear, He has only in the last few years learnt how to read music... he and a few mates have a "band" that sometimes do gigs, Jman can play lead, bass, keys or drums, whatever is needed at the time. His talent is all from love of it, never had any encouragement, no lessons, just a passion for it. I can only imagine what he could have done with it given the right kind of tutoring or guidance...

For Jacob, we would love to encourage any kind of musical talent he shows, we are thinking about buying him an acoustic guitar soon, something he can mess around with, I am still dreaming of owning a piano one day....

[Nai]

DD1 is doing keyboard at school (age 7) and really enjoys it. It is during class time, she leaves class for half an hour to attend and is in a small group of 4 kids. She also does choir at lunch time once a week. She asked to do these things and choir is completely off her own bat. We got her a keyboard on eBay for $10 and said that if she continues we will eventually get a piano. DP is hoping she switches to guitar as that's what he plays.

I did the recorder thing and switched to clarinet and saxophone at high school which I loved. I was also made to play the organ which I hated but my grandfather gave it to me in his will so mum made me learn to play it! I was allowed to switch to singing lessons after a few years and I really enjoyed that. DP taught himself guitar and still plays - he is hoping one of the girls wants to learn guitar.

From my experience I would go with a child led approach as it will generally lead to a more positive and ongoing relationship with music.

[veus]

I'm in the same boat. Forced to play. Didn't like it. Not necessarily had talent either.

I've been looking into this a bit. Am currently looking at the Suzuki method. It just seems a gentle way of introducing music and making it part of the child's life. But I think it comes down to the teacher for this method. And also a lot of dedication from the parents.

[Snacks]

Ahhh, there are SO many factors to consider! And probably it's like anything else to do with learning - that each kid will be different.

I studied music at a university level... and have done nothing with it. But the value is unspeakable. I play (and very occasionally write) music these days just to escape but not to perform.
I started piano at age 8 and loved it. I will ask my kids when they are about that age if they would like to have music lessons.
The biggest factor for me is that I loved my teacher. In the high school years when I could've dropped it for more "fun" things, my teacher adapted to my lifestyle and it was for her that I continued. My parents were always supportive but not pushy. However when I was given a "practice sheet" to ensure I practiced every day, my mum made me practice the minimal amount so she could sign it off, even if it was just running through scales.
I think piano is a good instrument to learn on as it introduces you to both clefs and that's a good start. It makes learning anything else later that little bit easier. E.g. I learned flute for a while in high school and found it not too difficult to pick up.

But I think it needs to be something your kids enjoy for it to have any value at all. The discipline is secondary in my opinion. The love/passion/interest needs to come first.
My kids both love listening to music and for starters I am trying to make a conscious effort to foster that. Natalie has started to become interested in what instruments are playing at a particular time. Regardless of the genre we are listening to, occasionally I try to break it down with her, ask her what she can hear, ask her to describe the sounds and if she is up for it I will tell her what's going on.
Above all, I try to make music fun. My parents' enjoyment of music was contagious. My whole family sing and I love the fact that my husband loves to sing too and we often sing to each other We are a bit crazy sometimes. I think my girls have a good ear so I really hope they have a love for it that I can encourage.

Sorry for the ramble - you're not the only one considering this sort of thing! I hope you can inspire your kids in a way that differs from the pressure you felt as a kid. xx

ETA: Just re-reading your post and I am sad for the littler you who was forced into such an uncomfortable place It makes me very sad to think that you might not be able to play and enjoy your abilities without guilt or feelings harking back to being bullied as a kid. I hope there's a special kind of freedom in the way you will encourage your kids in their interests and abilities. I can't imagine you being a bully in any way, regardless of what decisions you make re their learning.

[Rouge]

We got lessons for DD to play guitar when she was about 9. DS will start next year when he is 8. He really wants to drums but that is something we want to save till later. DD wants to play bass. So she'll start that next year in high school

If she ever said she didn't want to do it we'd stop. But I think irrespective of overwhelming talent or not learning a musical instrument is just as important as learning another language.

[Miss.September]

- what age would you start? DD1 started a couple of weeks after she turned four.

- what instruments are best to start with? We went with piano for her as she already loved it. She taught herself to play simple tunes (like one handed twinkle twinkle) and we decided to give formal lessons a go before she could teach herself bad habits.

- do you have opinions or experience with models of learning? I think the tunes they learn are necessary but they are so boring. We counteract that at home - I teach her some fun things that she can muck around with too so she doesn't go crazy with the book.

- do you need to insist on or push for daily practice? I imagine that few children volunteer to screech away at an amateur and tuneless 'twinkle twinkle' for 30 mins a day, but when learning an instrument is such a technical skill, this level of practice is required to make it happen. You have to be a bit rubbish, and put in a whole lot of hard yards to become accomplished. Can this be achieved in a 'gentle', respectful or child-led way?

Yes and no. Some days she sits down on her own and practices her entire book. Other days she ditches the book and practices things I've taught her like chopsticks. We don't nag her, don't want to make it a chore but once a week I make sure she practices the latest song she learned in her lesson. She's really keen so we generally let her lead the way.

- anything to add on your experience? I always ask her if she had fun after her lesson. We do it on a week by week basis and because she is young, we want it to be fun. The music school had their reservations about enrolling her (and I didn't let on that she was just turning 4 when I enrolled her) as they thought we had unreasonable expectations and she was too young, but one term in she has surprised them all and is keeping up with kids two years older. I think the key is to make sure it's fun and that they are musically inclined. DD1 has been doing mini maestros since she was about 18 months and loves all sorts of music so it seemed a natural way to go.

[YoYo]

I noticed DS was really into music when he turned 4, always tapping to beats, so asked him then if he wanted to play the drums.

He started then, right after we'd moved and he didn't really have anything else, no school or friends, but he struggled. Not because of not wanting to do it, he just wasn't confident yet. We stopped and waited another year, so had turned 5.

He really loved it. He could reach the peddles better too. His teacher didn't pressure him at all, he learned slowly but steadily. After a year he could have done a drum solo at the eisteddfod, but we were away in oz at the time.

Then we moved and it was the only thing he wanted to do again. Got him into lessons after school one day a week but he was more pressured to read music rather than just enjoy what he was doing. We also haven't been able to set up his kit as our place is too small for it, and he was getting into 'trouble' for not practicing. Hitting his sticks on the couch just isn't the same!!

Anyway, I pulled him out for now, till he can have his kit and start playing for enjoyment first before getting into lessons again.

I played the flute when I was younger, and just hated being forced into practicing and the pressure of it all when I just wanted to enjoy the music.

[blue_hebe]

I agree with child-led. It's a lot easier if the passion comes from the child.

You can always expose your child to music, concerts, singing etc and hopefully the interest will follow

Encourage your children to sing - it's useful to be able to hear the different pitches in a tune before attempting an instrument.

[Santosha]

Thanks so much for all your replies. Really interesting and helpful to read and fery encouraging that so many have success stories that are very much child-led. I hope that, if they're interested, I can support my kids in pursuing music in a respectful and encouraging way and that their experience and outcome is vastly different from mine.

Starting age seems to vary wildly so I guess I'll just go by their interest and individual temperaments. We have a house full of instruments, so the second they're interested there's plenty of opportunity!

[surprised]

- what age would you start?
I don't think there is a great deal of point doing lessons until a child can read relatively well (so mid-first year of school for many). If you want your kid to be an international concert pianist, sure, start them with Suzuki when they are 2. But for those who want to give their child a musical education, 5-8 is a good age to start. Bear in mind if you start them when they are very young you really need to commit to supervising their practice (especially if they can't read what they are meant to be doing)

- what instruments are best to start with?
Piano is great because you address music reading and theory as well as learning the actual instrument. Because you use 2 clefs and can play many notes at once, you get to look at a wider range of theory than you would on another instrument. Also, if you are a competent pianist you'll fairly easily pick up other instruments down the track.

It is also very common to start strings at a young age, and you can get smaller size guitars too.

- do you have opinions or experience with models of learning?
Horses for courses really. A lot depends on how serious you want to be about the whole thing. I think it's more important that a teacher connects with your child and gives them a life-long love of learning than that they teach a particular method (they all have their pros and cons).

- do you need to insist on or push for daily practice? I imagine that few children volunteer to screech away at an amateur and tuneless 'twinkle twinkle' for 30 mins a day, but when learning an instrument is such a technical skill, this level of practice is required to make it happen. You have to be a bit rubbish, and put in a whole lot of hard yards to become accomplished. Can this be achieved in a 'gentle', respectful or child-led way?

If you want to waste a whole lot of money, put a child in music lessons and don't make them practice. You are essentially paying for a 30 minute babysitting session each week. Of course, there are too many people who have horrible memories of being forced to practice, and we don't want to add to that number. But if your child doesn't love what they are doing enough that they will voluntarily practice (knowing also that they are expected to), save everyone the heartache and find a new hobby (at least until the child wants to practice).

4x20 min practice sessions a week will see some good achievements for most students. Schedule it in to their week (before school is awesome if there is time - that way it can't get skipped when the day gets busy). If you go for say a term and your child has been doing minimal practice, I'd be having a serious chat about whether they want to continue.

In looking for a teacher, if they are young, make sure they have a music degree. While years ago it was common for amazing musicians not to go to uni, I'd question the dedication of anyone under 35 who claims to be a music teacher but hasn't studied it at a tertiary level. The 15 year old up the street who charges $5 a lesson isn't a good idea - beginners need professional teachers so that lifelong bad habits aren't established!

Help your child to discover music they love, and help them understand where it came from. Show them The Beatles. Queen. Abba. Take them to a concert that's not kids music. Help them understand what real, live music is - not just the overproduced plasticky auto tuned rubbish that's out there.

Buy your kids the best quality instrument you can afford. Dodgy instruments are not a pleasure to play. If you are going to have piano lessons and want to start on a keyboard, get one that has a decent level of polyphony (number of notes that can be played at once) and that is touch-sensitive. The lower end digital pianos are a great start.

And find out whether the teacher is a contemporary or classical specialist, especially for piano and to some extent guitar. A classical teacher who thinks they can do contemporary isn't necessarily correct.

Oh and if you send your child to singing lessons, and you want them to have any kid of future in singing beyond doing it in the shower, make sure they are learning to read music.

With any luck, one day you will get the immense satisfaction of watching your child standing on stage having the time of their life!

[Miss.September]

- what age would you start?
I don't think there is a great deal of point doing lessons until a child can read relatively well (so mid-first year of school for many). If you want your kid to be an international concert pianist, sure, start them with Suzuki when they are 2. But for those who want to give their child a musical education, 5-8 is a good age to start. Bear in mind if you start them when they are very young you really need to commit to supervising their practice (especially if they can't read what they are meant to be doing)

Why do you say this? My DD1 is 4, can't read (she recognizes a handful of words) but has no problem reading music. Just wondering what your experience is to say this and whether my DD will have problems down the track (I wasn't anticipating any!).

[~ Mylitta ~]

My three kids all really love music. Our whole family is quite musical (ok, so I can't play an instrument or sing very well, but I use to work in the music industry because of my love of music). Even DD2 can't say many words yet, but she can sing a whole lot of songs, lol.

We are really lucky because our local music school/shop do music lessons for toddlers (i's called Bambino Beats). They even only charge us for DS and DD1. The class is about introducing musical concepts to the little kids and just developing a love for music. The classes are quite repetitive, but that's what is great about them. A class generally involves a warm up of a couple of songs the kids can sing and dance to, like "Hot potato" and "Jump Jump Star" (DD2's favorite!), then they choose some percussion instruments and use them in time to the beat of a song. This is when they have been introduced to crotchets and quavers, and all the kids in the class recognise the symbols and know their names. Next come the drums. They play little double bongo-type drums with their sticks and bang them loud or soft based on the dynamic symbols their teacher holds up (forte and piano), then repeat it or finish when those symbols are shown. Next up is guitar. The kids are adorable playing their ukuleles to a song. And now they have started learning "Twinkle Twinkle" on the glockenspiel.

[Miss.September]

Ah okay. I got the impression from your original post that you had more than your average experience! Thanks for clarifying. I wonder if the fact that she can't read was the reason her music school was hesitant to put her into a class.