Back again - thanks so much for all the advice.

Jols - Time out isn't working here unfortunately - yesterday I sent DS there for 2 mins and took his toys off him and DD smuggled him toys there and they were giggling about it and after the day we had I had to laugh at their ingenuity too but the threat of t/o doesn't really do anything!

WYSIWYG - thanks for the link hun, will let them wrestle away in a safe place! xxx Considering they spend the whole time giggling I think they should be ok, might just set some rules that if one person starts crying or says stop they need to stop! (Tap out ala pro wrestlers?

Thanks Nickle, MadB and FL - The choice thing is something I have done in the past but forgotten about. It's definitely something that has helped in the past so will try to remember that as well! I think when I get to this stage I forget all my strategies and just resort to yelling Like that is going to help.... Have to say on the Lego - DS couldn't care less how many cuts he gets on his feet (he's had heaps!) he would be happy just leaving it all over the lounge and we can't do that long term!!!!

Heaven - thanks hun, your post has made me realise how short tempered I have been and if DS who is 4 1/2 needs help I shouldn't be getting short tempered with him but just helping so I am at fault more than him. So easy to forget how little he is especially as DD is so independent and always has been. Last night I asked the kids to brush teeth and DS was blowing up his thing from the fair, he turned to me and said "I will just finish this" normally I would get a bit cross but can see now that I haven't shown them respect so I said - ok but as soon as you finish go do teeth and he did!

They respond well to charts so have one at their request for bedtime so they don't muck around too much(sharing a room) but I told them that we wouldn't be using it for other things and had a good chat about how we are a family, that we need to help each other and that we hate yelling so are going to try hard and I think it went as well as it could for a meeting with little kids who get distracted. I still struggle a bit with the natural consequence stuff, will see how we go today and come up with any scenarios that get me stuck!!!

Thanks again everyone! xoxox