Pitbulls

[loulabelle]

Meow is right. Cats don't just sit on babies. They like cots because the are warm and safe looking, Not hard to avoid, just keep the door closed. How many actual stories have you seen on the news about cat attacks? never. I wouldn't be concerned if a neighbor had a cat, but I WOULD be if they had a pitbull.
Comparing A cat to a pitbull is ridiculous.

[FabFiona]

I've never heard of a cat escaping from a house to run into another to rip a four year old from their mothers leg and maul them to death. Perhaps Tali could enlighten me?

Comparing the incredibly rare (if at all true) likelihood of a cat killing a baby and a dog killing a baby, I'm willing to bet hands down that the dogs win by a long shot. Tali, perhaps you have some stats on cat smothering vs dog attacks for us?

Putting these two animals on the same footing is very dangerous as it downplays the possible risks from dogs.

[beansbeans!]

Heres some stats I found for dog attacks in nsw from 2005, but up to date stats are hard to find. its from: http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghom...une%202005.pdf

(sorry if the link crosses guidelines (not sure) but I didnt want to copy and paste the bits of the article I wanted to share)
Out of the pure breeds
German Shepherds ranked 1st with 63 attacks, then cattle dogs, then rottweilers.

Out of the cross breeds
unknown cross breed ranked 1st, then cattle dog, then american pitbull terrier cross and pitbull cross.


Sorry couldnt find any statistics on cats smothering children or babies to death..
On a side note I have two cats, and they have never ever got near our kids faces, cots, or even attempted to smother them.. Our dog has never ever tried to bite either child.. Even though I think the chances of either of the animals hurting our children are low, I still keep an eye on them.
By the way Im pretty sure that the old wives tale of cats smothering children to death in cots was because they supposedly liked the smell of the milk. But cots do look inviting, they do look cosy at the best of times.

[PumpkinZulu]

Also, cats don't smother maliciously or with ill intent, dogs purposefully seek out and attack and kill. I've already said though, I'd distrust my cats around my daughter. Same as any animal.

I'd also be more concerned about a baby lying around, outside, unsupervised for such a long period of time that a cat strolls along, sees the baby in the middle of the yard, decides to sit directly on the baby and smother it...where are the parents?

Thankfully she came back to me, but I don't know what I would have done I'd she attacked.

I would hope that if that happened you'd get the dog destroyed, as hard and sad as that would be for you...otherwise the police would anyway.

[Rouge]

The cat smothering thing is an urban myth. Google it. Just saying'

[Jellyfish]

I don't have any animals technically but my parents have two cats (one my brothers and one mine that I left there when I moved out because they are brothers, they had been in that house their whole lives and I was moving to an apartment) and I'd never leave DD alone with them, not only because I don't trust the cats... I more don't trust my DD to be gentle! So far the cats have left her well alone, in fact they usually sprint the second they hear or see her but DD has managed to pat fur the wrong way, sit on tails and I even had to crash tackle her once as she was about to step on ones head. When DD was little and having a sleep at my parents, we would just make sure the cats were either outside or the door to her room closed, I check on her frequently regardless of animals but the cats never even seemed interested. I was initially surprised that the cats didn't lash out when DD is a bit rough but it is almost like they understand she is a "lowly being" who couldn't possibly understand the intricacies of how to treat a cat the way they deserve hehe... maybe that is just our cats but cats do seem to have kind of a hmm... aloof dignity? Regardless, I wouldn't trust them alone together even at this age (especially at this age!!).

Dogs also have a different sense of place in a family, they have pack ordering which can lead to jealousy issues. Most cats only really care if they are fed

[nothing2lose]

Tali, I think you've helped prove the point of what a lot of people on here are saying.

You were walking your dog (presumably on a chain) and it escaped from you and chased down a woman who would not have been able to defend herself if attacked.

I am guessing you did not predict that would happen. Neither could you prevent it from happening.

Sure, it didn't result in the woman being bitten, but why should an elderly woman (or anyone for that matter - a woman with a pram, a child on a bike, a teenager walking) be scared half to death, or otherwise harrassed by a barking or snarling dog chasing them???? While you may argue no harm was done, I think it is a bad thing to have happen.

[Floweryfields]

I would not trust cats though, they have been known to smother babies. They also can not be contained unless they are locked indoors or an enclosure. So what if a neighbour had a baby laying on the ground outside and your cat smothered it to death?
I would never trust a cat with a newborn. How many of you are telling her to get rid of it when you have a dangerous cat that could potentially harm a child too?

I'm sorry, but that is the most absurb comparison and I could comment a whole lot further, but it doesn't even warrant the time.

[Me+him+bub]

it would be hard, but even though I am a huge dog lover I would be removing the dog from my home, I had a beautiful 2 year old ex show dog purebred husky, He was on a lead, and out of the blue his prey drive took over and he killed my precious prize persian cat, he knocked me over "while pregnant" and for the life of me I could not get his jaw open, my 2 year old son was standing there, I do not dare to think what if he had grabbed him, it still haunts me, I ended up giving him back
to the breeder that very night, I am not comparing pit bulls to huskies, just want you to imagine yourself in that situation, I still have a massive scar on my hand from the injury I sustained. not to mention do you want to go to jail if this dog killed or hurt someone's pet or another human? I would have a big think about it. Remember YOU and your family are the only ones who have to live with your decision, not anyone on this forum. best of luck

[Freya]

Tali, you quite obviously dont own a cat if you could make that assumption! I have never ever heard of a baby being smothered by a cat. We just got a kitten after being purely dog people our entire lives and I can assure you they are a totally different kettle of fish! I worry for the cats safety more than I do my kids because they harrass the poor thing no end out of love. At most Im a little nervous about a scratch to the eye but so far, the cat hasnt scratched or bitten anyone and he has tolerated more than any dog could ever get from a bunch of kids!

Our dog on the other hand, I love her and she is a big kid herself but she doesnt know her own strength or when to stop so I never leave her alone with the kids. And I will happily say that she is at a much lower risk of biting or mauling anyone than other breeds of dogs, only because she is so lazy and bred for laid back temperament. Please note I said AT LOWER RISK, I still dont understimate her and we teach the kids appropriate safety ie not patting her while she is eating or encouraging her to nip them.

[briggsy's girl]

Remember YOU and your family are the only ones who have to live with your decision, not anyone on this forum. best of luck

You're right - this online community doesn't have much sway in this - but there is a real life community that needs to be considered here just as much as the OP and her child. To socialise her dog as it should be socialised, she has no choice but to expose other members of the community to a dog that is a high risk breed. That should be as much a consideration as anything else. There is no guarantee that the community at large are going to be as responsible - a rebellious child hits the dog, another dog gets free and nips at his legs -the consequences for the community if this breed snaps are, in general, a crap load worse than if a chihuahua (for instance) snaps. yes, I'd feel like crap if my chihuahuas had snapped/bitten someone - but they nip - they don't attack to kill like the breed mentioned. the local community is at a higher risk of injury if the animal snaps.
hell, i've owned small dogs that have been attacked by a dog with an owner trying to be responsible (muzzled etc) - but because the dog was too powerful for her, she could not stop him - he seen my dogs as a meal i assume - and then she blamed me! my dogs were both on leads, both harnessed and i had total control of them (including being able to pick them up out of danger when attacked) - i was to blame though, because i shouldn't have had small dogs out in public! wt??

so yes, the OP can be the only one ultimately to make the decision (unless it's a banned breed, and then the law can do it for them) - but it's not JUST them that have to live with the decision. I'm pretty sure there is a family - a whole community - in Melbourne that aren't sitting around thinking that their neighbor is the only one living with the consequences of his decision to keep the pet he kept...

[~ Mylitta ~]

Just some more stats:

A study done in Adelaide from 1990-1993 found that the dog breeds that caused the most bites were: German Shepherd, Bull Terrier, Blue/Red Heeler, Dobeman and Rottweiler. 2.6% of bites were also done by "mongrels" which may have included pitbull crosses, and also 6.5% were listed under "others" which may have included pitbulls or pitbull crosses. But 73.3% of bites were done by the first 5 breeds I listed.

Having said that, these are just the statistics for dog BITES, not DBRF (dog bite related fatalities). The study in Adelaide didn't include those stats. I did find a study that was done in America that focused on DBRF though. "The data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." Another study of attacks from 1982 through 2006 produced similar results.

The studies seem to show that while pitbulls (and pitbull crosses) are no more likely to bite than any other breed of dog, when they do bite they are statistically MUCH more likely to cause a fatality. I would also assume that they are more likely to cause more serious damage (without death) than most breeds of dogs.


Also, the AVA (Australian Vet Association) has found that "the most likely victims of dog attacks are children aged under 10, usually by their own dogs at their homes". A spokesperson from the AVA has said that ""Unfortunately, we believe the banning and over-regulation of dogs in our communities could be part of the problem as this leads to poor socialisation and increased risk of attacks." The AVA is instead calling for the government to increase funding for education and socialisation programs for dogs, their owners and young children."

[StrawberryFields]

While I'm definitely pro-desexing, and definitely like it to be done at 6 months for pet dogs that are at risk of breeding (obviously not breeding dogs), there's actually quite a bit of literature that shows that 6 months is not always the ideal time to desex. A study in 1991 found that a number of factors including the sex hormones are what promote the closing of the growth plates in dogs. So it's actually the opposite of what is believed; dogs desexed early are actually more likely to be bigger than late-desexed or non-desexed dogs because the growth plates take longer to close and their bones continue to grow for longer. This can cause a higher incidence of things like hip displasia and damaged cruciate ligaments later down the track. This obviously makes it a difficult choice for some owners as to when they should desex their dog as they have to balance the risk of changing their dog's natural growth with the risk of sex hormone based behaviours. A 2004 study actually found that early desexing can increase the incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females...

While that seems a little off-topic, I just wanted to put it out there in case anyone was thinking that the OP was negligent in not desexing yet.

Yup, thats what several of the vets at our local practice told us. The growth plate thing is more for big dogs that take longer to grow to full size, whereas the sexual behaviour part is more apparent in little dogs but not limited to little dogs. We got our Silky Terrier desexed bang on 6 months and now at 11 years of age he STILL humps anything and everything in sight!

I was thinking as well that, Reet, if the day comes that you do have to make the decision to get rid of Yogi, don't automatically go to destruction - there are other options. Rehoming as a pet for a Pitty probably isn't the ideal, but the police force, military, and private security companies don't just take German Shepherds you know! If he does show some concerning aggression but isn't completely vicious, he could make the perfect security patrol dog, and in the hands of a qualified and experienced trainer he could have the best of both worlds.

Like I said in my previous post, I would only be really trusting the advice of your vet on this matter. I think I read you've got Yogi booked in for his big op next week? I'd be bringing it up with the vet then, and see what the expert has to offer.

[AndiE]

One of the scariest moments of my life was walking down a suburban street when I heard an animal running from behind me. I turned around and this horse of a dog - no idea what it was, but it was big enough to do damage - came charging at me. There was no one around and I had no idea what to do if it attacked. I turned back around away from it ... and thank god the great beast ran straight past me, brushing my side as it went past. At the age of 20 I wasn't quite old enough to have a heart attack, but by God I came close to having one. Dogs - particularly big dogs - have no place on the loose.

Reet - as another poster said. This is your decision. It has to be one you're comfortable with and prepared to live with.

[Asparagus and Lemons]

My point was that there is a risk with any animal, And what if the owner is stronger than the pitbull? Does that make it ok to own the dog? As a cat is weaker than us? Someone mentioned no you wouldn't leave your baby unattended outside? That is my point exactly! NOTHING can be trusted! No animal either, we had a chicken a few months ago taken by a large eagle! I would in no way have been able to fight that off!

No, your all right, I am not a cat owner, but I have friends with cats, one whom I see regularly, and DD is attracted to any animal and this cat does not like her at all. Last time we were there, the cat tried scratching at her face and we had to put the cat in another room. Just like you would with an angry dog, put it somewhere else, chain it up?


Beansbeans - Thanks for that link, if I read it correctly, german sheppards have attacked more than pitbull?


PZ - Yes I would defiantly destroy my dog if she was to attack the old woman. I mean to say, what would I immediately do? With a baby in a stroller, no phone, and trying to capture a dog.. what would anyone do? Just scream till somebody came to the rescue? I have not taken our dog for a walk by myself since this incident because I have been scared of what might happen.

[Butterfly Dawn]

Im glad you gonna keep your puppy. Sound like a lovely dog and I think you sure have your head on straight!
This kind of discussion always gets peoples emotions running high but its been very interesting to hear people on both sides.

[~ Zarava Flutterby ~]

I wouldn't trust a boarder collie or a cattle dog.

Funny you say that hun, i was always worried about our girl when we had kids because she's so big and she's bred to 'chase sheep' but even now we actually do live on a farm she's the most placid dog, i would trust her with my kids over our little terrier any day.

[Floweryfields]

You're right - this online community doesn't have much sway in this - but there is a real life community that needs to be considered here just as much as the OP and her child. To socialise her dog as it should be socialised, she has no choice but to expose other members of the community to a dog that is a high risk breed. That should be as much a consideration as anything else. There is no guarantee that the community at large are going to be as responsible - a rebellious child hits the dog, another dog gets free and nips at his legs -the consequences for the community if this breed snaps are, in general, a crap load worse than if a chihuahua (for instance) snaps. yes, I'd feel like crap if my chihuahuas had snapped/bitten someone - but they nip - they don't attack to kill like the breed mentioned. the local community is at a higher risk of injury if the animal snaps.
hell, i've owned small dogs that have been attacked by a dog with an owner trying to be responsible (muzzled etc) - but because the dog was too powerful for her, she could not stop him - he seen my dogs as a meal i assume - and then she blamed me! my dogs were both on leads, both harnessed and i had total control of them (including being able to pick them up out of danger when attacked) - i was to blame though, because i shouldn't have had small dogs out in public! wt??

so yes, the OP can be the only one ultimately to make the decision (unless it's a banned breed, and then the law can do it for them) - but it's not JUST them that have to live with the decision. I'm pretty sure there is a family - a whole community - in Melbourne that aren't sitting around thinking that their neighbor is the only one living with the consequences of his decision to keep the pet he kept...

Awesome post BG.

I am a little lost as to the reason for the OP's original post as the outcome seems to have been determined prior to and regardless of what any of us have had to say - which of course is your right, but it confuses me all the same why you would bother asking?

We are also making sure he is good with our little baby girl, we put her on his back to ride him all the time, and when he is freshly washed we lay her on him for a few seconds. He is always so good with her. He just lays there quite content.

And can I just say, that statement there, terrifies the beejeebers out of me - did the first time I read it and still gives me the chills now.