Do Japanese Women Eat Sushi, Do French Women Eat Soft Cheese/Pate

[paradise lost]

When i worked in epidemiology (2003) i read that because poor nutrition has been demonstrated to be a contributing factor or cause of pre-eclampsia and eclampsia it is considered unwise to tell a woman whose main source of protein is soft cheese or fish sushi not to eat it. In the UK or AUS where a woman would probably not be eating those foods regularly or relying on them to be a main source of protein telling her to avoid them would be much safer - the risk of food poisoning would probably be greater than that of poor-nutrition-related-PE.

Flowerchild i was devastated by your words and in tears for some time. I don't know what to do but re-state my position.

That's not "Truth" - other women who lost babies might NOT believe that and might feel they WOULD have their baby if they eaten or behaved differently, and i'm not judging them. Everyone has to live with their own feelings following a loss.

Clearly you were hurt by my words, which was not at all my intention, i was not directing my beliefs at anyone in particular; i was merely sharing them, as is usual on forums of this nature. I did not mention listeria in my previous post, i was talking about my personal beliefs about the Fates of my babies and how their loss made me think and feel about foods and their safety or not. Rest assured i was devastated by your attack, which sadly it seems was absolutely your intention. I'm truly sorry for your losses and the pain you have endured. I hope the way in which you handle it every day allows you peace, as my ways of handling it have allowed me in some small measure.

Bx

[mountain mummy]

Sure, you might have a bit of brie, or a piece of cold meat and nothing happen to the baby.... does that also make it ok to have a cigarette? Or to pop an ecstacy tablet? Or to have a shot of alcohol?

No, but people still do it .... I have many friends who continued to smoke throughout pregnancy, purely because of the belief that their baby will be smaller to birth ... WITHOUT taking into consideration the health risks to both mother and child. But that is off the topic

Fiona - I remember reading somewhere a couple of years ago that the foetal mortality rate in Japan was high (and for the life of me can't find the study now!) but I don't think there were any attributions to listeria ... but it does make you wonder doesn't it?

I know many years ago when I was pregnant with my first child, I wondered about the sushi - I had eaten sushi at least 2-3 times a week for many years before falling pregnant - and I thought "well what do Japanese women eat when they are pregnant?" For me though, each time I have been pregnant, I have gone totally off seafood Plus all meats (red, chicken, pork ...) and the last two times vegetables even churned my stomach ... doesn't leave alot to eat does it? lol

[Mumma2three]

Im realising lately (with friends especially, and with forums) that everyone thinks they are right. But that's ok I think, as our opinion is what we think is correct. I think the heartache comes when we try to tell others our opinion, and others don't take the advice, it can feel personal, even though it shouldn't be taken that way.
The fact is we all do what we do,and in 99.9% of cases, we are doing the best that we can. I also believe on a forum, it's not all truth anyway, so I wouldn't take every single post as 100% truth. We can be and/or say whatever we want and no one really knows us.
I think the idea is that we do go off track on posts, it's like conversations, they always end up somewhere different to where they start, that's normal. I would just try not to read into things. The other problem is when writing people can't hear tone, expression etc and often things are taken WAY out of context.
But really I think we just need to understand that deep down, we all think we are pretty right, otherwise we wouldn't have a certain opinion. Not sure if that makes sense, but we are talking about pregnancy/birth, there is no right or wrong in alot of it anyway. When it comes down to it, we are all going to do things differently and the idea of a forum is to share ideas and we can take what we want from what we read. We can also give what has worked/not worked for us and people can choose if they want to try some of what we've said.
saying all that, I choose what I'll eat and what I won't and some of that is on the no list (like a soft serve from macca's, and a glass of wine, and soft cheese that's pasturised) and like Hoobley said, that does not mean I love my child any less. Infact I feel like I love my kids more than anyone ever has in existence (and Im sure alot of other people feel that too). We each have to have our own experience's. xoxo

[Inanna]

I actually don't agree it's about being right and wrong.

It's about personal choice. Comments were made to the vein that it's all a bit over the top and "we never had these rules in our mothers day" etc etc. Comments such as "I ate it and look my baby is alive and developmentally fine".

People look and read and some people just believe opinions. So therefore facts have to be stated.

Listeriosis is a real albiet small risk. It is a "common" cause of stillbirth. It isn't a story with unknown faces...

Yes, I was offended Hoobley - as you were "growing increasingly tired" - your beliefs may be that your babies died and that's just the way it is. However, my babies died because I had an undiagnosed condition. I have made it my lifes work to help and support those that are enduring the same. I have seen cases of stillbirths due to listeriosis and "they were never meant to be" really doesn't cut it in a labour room when there is a silence that can cut the air.

Yes, I am sensitive about this issue (I wave my arms around guiltily) Yes you have pushed my buttons - but my over flowing in box last night told me how hurt others were also...

We all say stuff without thinking. We all say stuff without really understanding how it might be heard. Its all good - my wounds are never kept open - life is too short for that.

It is true that the written word without facial expressions etc can be misinterpreted. Absolutely true. As for it being the truth - well I am different. I live my life authentically and I always make the assumption (unless I am proven otherwise) that others do too.

Posts often get off topic - back to France and Japan - but it's about discussion and learning and peer support.

[Liz]

I actually think it's pretty funny that people assume japanese women live on sushi and french women live on soft cheeses. LOL.

I did a quick google and of course couldn't find anything. But I did find something on french women drinking alcohol during pregnancy, and it said that they were actually uninformed about the dangers of alcohol in pregnancy, and that it was a surprising find that many of the women admitted to not knowing of any of the dangers. There's been no campaigning or information distributed on this topic to french women.

So, the same may be true about Japanese and sushi. Who knows.

I didn't find avoiding these foods that hard.. in the big scheme of things its a pretty small sacrifice to make and an easy one. The fact that you can have listeriosis and not know it is what scared me. It really was no biggy to miss out on a few foods. You could say that women centuries ago didn't have all these 'rules' but their food would have been 100 times different too. We have so much processed food, and even our 'fresh' food has an unbelievable shelf life these days too. I think if research has found that some of our modern food can contain a harmful bacteria, then it's worth listening to.

[Inanna]

My way of looking at it is the same Liz. What I find most disturbing is the erroneous belief that pasteurized food cannot grow listeriosis. Women assume if they eat brie etc that is pasteurized that they will not come in contact with listeriosis.

That is absolutely untrue - and it does concern me...

[Nai]

One of the main issues seems to be the mis-information, conflicting information or lack of information available. I thought I was well informed on what to eat and not eat during pregnancy etc but still managed to find out only now that runny eggs are not ok. How did this slip through the keeper?

And I also thought that pastuerised was ok!

[Toomanytoomany]

It's not a matter of thinking I'm right, it's a matter of weighing up the scientific evidence that has been presented and deciding what to do about it. It's not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact that some foods and any alcohol consumption represent a risk - how we decide to act on that is a matter of opinion and personal preference.

[Inanna]

Hoobley, I aim every day to not cause harm - be it emotional or physical... It appears that I have caused you pain by my response to your post. I wanted to "speak" to you publicly as to me it's important for others to understand my stance.

I need to be honest - for it is not my responsibility to be dishonest in order to save your pain either. I feel your comments were insensitive because before we speak we need to think of who is hearing our words and how they will be processed. As a speaker that is our responsibility - hence my responsibility is to now be clearer about my response!

If you were responding to a post that was in regard to infertility and that eating pork increases the risk of infertility... In this thread women that were suffering infertility were replying. I came along and said: "well I'm growing increasingly tired of this post and I have suffered from infertility but I still ate pork and look I have a baby... It is my belief that some women just can't have babies..." ( I know your words were different - I am trying to paint the picture) How would that be heard?

Okay all of that would be true and valid - but would it be appropriate? I believe it would not.

Infertility is painful - women don't want it brought up that "some women just can't have babies"... When you are trying to keep the faith - for some women hearing that just sucks... Miscarriage and loss is painful - holding a dead baby in your arms is gut wrenching - having someone tell you "it's just not meant to be" sucks.

As you well know M & L is my "baby" - I protect my "cubs" with a passion - and the other night I responded quickly and swiftly and the way I couched my response clearly hurt you. I was propelled by my inbox, by the fact that I had just spent 2 hours with a woman who had just discovered her 16week old fetus was dead... So we all come from our own place when we respond - however I am responsible for my words and my intent wasn't to harm you. Rather it was to quickly and swiftly point out that your words were heard in a hurtful manner.

I think you B are a legend - I can think something you said was not okay without thinking you are not okay. Does that make sense? I will not and cannot agree with you always - or anyone. But, honestly stating my Truth I believe is important. However, clearly I should have been less quick to respond and kinder in my language.

How do I see the world? Well, I believe that we all come into this life from a past one (unless we are very unucky) and I think we have lessons, I think we have Karma attatched to our Being. I don't think someone is driving our car so to speak. I don't believe in God in the sense that religions do.. I actually do believe "that all is just how it should be". But that does not mean I have no control at all over my path. There are many roads to the end of our journey's - sometimes we choose the tough path and sometimes when we listen to our intuition and our Guidance we can make it a little easier. The lessons are the same - just how we learn them may be different. Had I listened to my intuition I would not have said Goodbye so many times...

There is an Arabic proverb that says something to the effect of: "Trust in Allah - but tie up your horse first"...

So, I hope that this explains myself to you - again you do not need to "reinstate" anything. I can disagree with you without disliking you. They are not the same thing!

So, Hoobley (and anyone else that felt my response was OT) thankyou for the lesson in waiting and not responding quickly! Thankyou for valuing me enough to take time to write to me. Thankyou for being the wonderful BB member of my Village that you are!

Merry Christmas to you Hoobs - and know I send you love and hugs across the waves...

ETA: Sam is right I am approachable!..

[paradise lost]

Flowerchild!

You know, i had unsubscribed, thank GOODness i was surfing and saw you'd posted again!

I really liked this:

If you were responding to a post that was in regard to infertility and that eating pork increases the risk of infertility... In this thread women that were suffering infertility were replying. I came along and said: "well I'm growing increasingly tired of this post and I have suffered from infertility but I still ate pork and look I have a baby... It is my belief that some women just can't have babies..." ( I know your words were different - I am trying to paint the picture) How would that be heard?

Because even though the example is different, it does illustrate the reason for your hurt so much more clearly, thankyou! It is sometimes so hard to delineate, isn't it, between personal and general feelings. I was so wrapped up in trying to explain why i had the attitude i did, i didn't think for a second that someone who was NOT in or about to come from the place i'm at could actually be tripped up and really hurt by my unintentional insensitivity! Sometimes i really need to pull my head out of my...well, you know! One of my parents had a very "you might be hurt but i never meant to hurt you so it's your problem" attitude at times and it's something i can fall victim to myself, speaking loudly before thinking about how it will be taken by others. Especially ridiculous when you consider their advice following my second loss ("at least you know you can get pregnant") was so incredibly painful for me.

This also is gold:

There is an Arabic proverb that says something to the effect of: "Trust in Allah - but tie up your horse first"...

And it reminded me of my maternal grandmother. Nana was a very plain-speaking woman, and i can remember once her neighbour, who my nana sort of tolerated in that strained polite-but-hating-it-and-looking-down-her-nose kind of way that the previous generations did, dropped her lit cigarette into her own lap and when she saw the sparks begin to glimmer in her skirt fabric screamed "Jesus help me!" and my nana tossed her cup of lukewarm tea onto her lap and said grimly "Jesus helps those that help themselves!".

I'm glad you responded quickly, even if i was upset because haste made you sharper than you intended, because imagine all those women who emailed or PM'd you hurting and hurting and feeling there was no-one in their corner. I'd rather have a cry that them cry, because my words hurt them, however unintentional it was, those SHOULD be my tears, not theirs. To all those women i hurt, i'm so sorry my thoughtlessness caused you pain, especially at this time of year. We all respond to the pain of loss differently but whatever i decided to do with it, i have felt that pain and i should know better than to post thoughtlessly as i did.

That poor woman you spoke of. I can't imagine what she must be going through. And i can definitely see how that would have hastened your reaction to my unthinking idiocy. I agree completely that one can think someone has DONE wrong without them BEING wrong across the board, and i actually find more value in talking to those who feel differently to me. It's comforting to find support and challenging to find opposition but what value has the unquestioned belief?

Thank you Deb, for this, and for my love and hugs. I'm sending you a fresh-baked batch right back. I am so so glad i wrote to you. Of COURSE i value you. Part of my devastation was that i'd hurt someone i didn't know well but respected so hugely.

It's Christmas Eve as i write this, and i'm about to tuck DD up and tell her one last time about how santa will come and fill her tights (don't ask - couldn't get a stocking!) with presents. You're all about to get up and begin your Christmas Days. Merry Christmas Deb, I hope santa stuffed your tights FULL.

Love

Bx