Becoming Enduring Power of Attorney for my mother.

[Calluna]

Background
My mother is not good at making good decisions. From little things, like who she is friends with or what to buy at the shops to bigger things like what to spend large amounts of money on, which job to go to if there is a conflict in schedules. There are so many examples of her poor judgement. She sold her house and used the money to buy loads of unneccesary stuff, that depreciated in value very quickly. She has nothing left to show for it.
The biggest one, though, was a couple of years ago. Im sure I wrote a thread about it but in case you dont know-

She had been doing acting lessons. Had an agent (I dont even want to know how much THAT was costing her!). She was also working as a carer to people with physical disabilities.
This particular day, she had been rostered on to care for a patient in thier home. A regular, weekly job. She got a call from the acting agency with an extras gig. Which she took. Did not inform her employer and simply did not show up for work. Leaving the client without a carer for the morning. She was fired as you would expect. She couldnt pay her rent.

6 weeks later I got a phonecall from her telling me all of this and that she had been served an eviction notice. I asked if she had gotten on to centrelink to get payments started and she said she didnt want to*. She said "If only the landlord would give me 2 more weeks, Ill have another job" and "they shouldnt have sacked me, I didnt do anything wrong, the client didnt like me, he has something against me". Its never her fault. I told her again she didnt have a choice. Get to centrelink first thing in the morning and sort this out. She didnt. It was another 2 weeks before she finally did it. In the meantime her and my then 18yo brother were now homeless and wanting to stay with us (in my MIL house). I told her no as it was not the first time something like this had happened and she needed to take responsibilty for herself and know that she cannot fall back on me and my family everytime she makes a (huge) mistake. We did store her belongings and allowed my brother to stay for a couple of days (him leaving was a whole other thing)

*For as long as I can remember she has had this attitude that being on "welfare" is extremely unsavoury. If you are on welfare everyone hates you and looks down on you.

---------------------------------

I have been thinking about offering to be her power of attorney for a long while. She obviously is not capable of making big decisions on her own. Before she was receiving a very low income and whatever centrelink supplemented. But now, my Grandmother has passed away she is set to recieve a substantial amount of money. Im really worried shes going to blow it all again.

I have suggested she use some to buy a small house for herself outright and put the rest in a high interest account. But honestly, I cant see it happening. Even if she does get a house, its unlikely the rest will make it to the bank and if it does it wont be there long.

She needs to be assessed, and while I know she is not capable of looking after herself, even day to day is borderline, what if "they" dont see it?

-------------

The thing is, Im not sure I am up for the job. I dont have a problem being her health advocate down the track. I dont think Ill have a problem acting in her best interests in that regard. But I dont know anything about financials. Im not sure I want to be responsible for someone elses financial well being.

So, I have a few questions.

How do I go about getting her mental capability assessed? Last time we looked into it, the GP basically said there is nothing we can do unless she agrees to it. Is that still true if I am Enduring Power of Attorney? I know that if she is deemed incapable I can make some decisions for her care, but what about when she hasnt yet recieved a diagnosis? Can centrelink help with this, especially given her track record?
How does the assessment work?
Do I have to tell her I think she is incapable of looking after herself? I dont want her to feel like I think she is stupid or crazy, but I have to do something for her. This cannot continue.

If she loses her job again, can I have her put back on centrelink or does she have to seek it out herself? Will she be eligible for anything once she recieves her inheritence anyway? What if she uses part of it to buy a house? Is the house then an asset that means she owns too much?

I was considering suggesting that I go on the title for the house too, so that she cant just sell it for cash. Is this a bad idea? Will it cause me problems with my centrelink payments? Or if she runs into trouble down the track, will I be liable because Im on the title? I wouldnt actually have anything to do with it, except to be an obstacle if/when she tries to sell it.

Can I ensure that at least part of the remaining money is put in some kind of non accessible high interest bank account? I want her to be able to access it if neccesary, but not all the time to buy random crap with.

What have I not thought of? Any tips, experience, HELP you can offer would be very much appreciated!

I feel so out of my depth, but there is no-one else that can help her. I am the only family she has (aside from my brother who has gone awol and clearly has no regard for her welbeing at all!!)

[nickle730]

Hi Calluna, In order to become your mother's EPOA she would either have to agree to it or be deemed mentally incompetent. In order to have a mental health assessment, she would have to agree or be made an Involuntary Patient which deems that she is a risk to herself. She does not have to cooperate with the mental health assessment, but it is fairly difficult to have a person with no recorded history of mental health problems made an IP - and rightfully so. In order to force your mum to submit to a MHA you would need to have Medical Power of Attorney, but again she must agree or be deemed incompetent. Does your mum have a recognised mental health illness?

I understand why you are concerned, but ultimately it is your mother's money to spend and she can spend it however she pleases. I would suggest that you sit down with your mum and discuss your concerns. Unfortunately, if she is not willing to discuss the issue with you I don't think there is a great deal you can do.

I think it's very kind of you to want to do the right thing by your mum, I hope she will listen to reason!

[glenny_c]

Calluna,

nickle730 has explained it really well. You can't do it unless she agrees or she gets declared mentally incompetent. From what you have said, I think it would be highly unlikely that she would be declared mentally incompetent. She may be making silly choices but at the end of the day they are hers to make. While I think it is lovely that you want to help your mother, and in your shoes I would be tearing my hair out and wanting to do something too, I'm not sure it's up to you to "fix" your mother. Your mother and brother are both legally adults. They are old enough to live off their own decisions. If she had minor children in her care there's other things you could do but they could get very ugly and you might end up destroying your relationship with your mother.

I can't imagine she will take kindly if you try and have her mentally assessed without her permission? I think you should try talking to her. Suggest she give the majority of money to you for safekeeping perhaps? Good luck honey. what a tough position to be in. The other thing I wanted to say though is that I have learnt through recent events in my own family that your energy should be spent on your family- your partner and kids. Looking after your mum sounds like it could be a full time job? Do you really want to take energy away from your family? I say that though through very jaded eyes.

[Frantelle]

I would speak to a solicitor for this type of advice. In order for you to be given her EPOA (in NSW) she must have the mental capacity to do so, a solicitor meeds to give a very specific certificate stating that she is of sound mind at the time of execution. If there is any doubt about her mental capacity she must sit an acquity test with her GP and must receive a specific score.

This is for an enduring POA. A general POA does not have the same requirements but no solicitor worth his salt would prepare one and have it signed if there was no mental capacity and the use of your POA could be challenged.

As far as her not having capacity and you becoming her EPOA you will meed to go through the Guardianship Tribunal and from what I have seen it is not an easy process.

Good luck with it all and like I said first off you need to see a solicitor and get the appropriate advice for your relevant state.

[MLR1901]

Sounds like my mum to a tee!!
We tried (she did agree at one point) for all three of us kids to be administrators, however because my brother had to declare bankrupt, due to previous incident which was mums fault he couldn't be a administrator. Then there are tax implications and declarations. Which to be honest would have all fallen on to just me, as my siblings are only 22, and 24 and have no concept of that sort of thing.
We then agreed on EPOA. Mum was ok with being declared mentally incapable (history of bi polar) and had sent all her inheritance overseas to scammers. But she then had the smarts to realise, she would need to tell us everything, and suddenly back peddled. Didn't and still doesn't want to know us.
She has since declared bankrupt herself after taking out loans to sent money overseas, again to those Nigerian love scammers. And even now after that is STILL doing sending money overseas.
She somehow thinks that one of us kids will look after her if/when she becomes destitute. Fortunately she lives with her sister in their dads house so no rent/mortgage, and that house will be left to her, should anything happen to my aunt. The house was left to the older one and the money to my mum. After mum blew it, my aunt went to see a lawyer, who suggested to my aunt to change her will to reflect how she would like the house handled due to mums history, it has been allocated to mum but she must get all three if us to agree to sign for her, if she tries/wants to sell it.

Sorry for the ramblings, just wanted to let you know your not alone.
It can get messy, but I guess you have to take the chance and talk up her. Your mum might find it a relief as she possibly finds it hard to manage, but has too much pride to ask for help.
Good luck! Xx
Oh and an EPOA doesn't count once the person passes away, so ensure her will is updated too.

[megs]

Hi Calluna, I can sympathize with you as I am going through something similar with my father. He is about to lose his house, has no money etc but still can't take ownership that his poor life choices got him to where he is.

Agree with what the others said re power of attorney. In reference to putting your name on the title, yes this may effect your Centrelink payments (I am not sure what you are on) but if you are on an income support payment this house will be classified as an assets against you.

Good luck with everything

[Calluna]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. Like I said, Im so out of my depth but I feel like I cant just do nothing.

To be clear, I dont want to take away her rights to her money. I know its hers to do with as she pleases. I just want to be able to stop her ending up where she started a few months down the track. When she sold her house she recieved just under 100k dollars. Itwas gone in 6 months. She has told me that she is inheriting 500k from her parents. It is clear that no amount of talk from me or anyone else gets through to her. If she doesnt agree with what I say to her, she will pretend she does and still do the opposite.

She hasnt been diagnosed with anything other than depression as far as I am aware. She also has a thyroid issue which she claims affects her decision making ability. She obviously has something more serious going on, than depression. My dad believes it may be aspergers or something similar. He says that its like she is stuck at 14 years old.
It is so hard to describe her to people. Unless they have spent a moderate amount of time with her, people dont seem to get it.

She is a danger to herself financially. She is already talking about all the things she wants to buy me. Everytime we mention, we'd like to do this or that for DS its, "well when I have my money Ill pay for it!"
Socially she has no idea. She is intelligent. Just not when it comes to social or financial decisions. She doesnt understand sarcasm, tell her a joke and she thinks you are serious no matter how out there the statement is. She doesnt understand about social hints and cues. Ie, she will come over in the morning, hang around all day then if we say we have to go out she wants to come too. If you tell her your tired she offers to look after DS while I have a sleep. If you tell her you have housework to do she offers to help. She doesnt get that its a hint for her to leave. If you come straight out and say I want you to go you hate her and never want to see her again. Sure, its nice that she wants to help, but after talking to her (which is hard work in itself) for 6 or 8 hours, it becomes exhausting.
The time she is here, or with anyone else, its not limited to me. She spends the conversation talking at you not to you. She doesnt actually listen to anything you say.
Despite her visiting from 9am to 3:30pm one day a week, she wanted to make it 2 days a week. She cant understand why I dont want to spend all my spare time with her. Dont I like her?

It all seems relatively normal when typed out, but its not. Its exhausting. And frustrating. If it wasnt for the fact that I am her only family and her daughter, I would have bailed years ago. Some days I seriously consider it, but ultimately, Im all she has and I cant do that. Its not her fault she is the way she is.

Im not exactly well off myself. I dont know that I can afford to see a solicitor. I was thinking of talking to a Centrelink social worker and seeing what they can do to help me, help her.

-------
Ill talk to her about doing a will too. Thank you for that suggestion. DF said last night that he thinks the state takes everything in her estate unless she has nominated someone in a will. Is that right or does it automatically go to us (my brother and I)? I just assumed it went to the next of kin unless otherwise specified in a will.

My plan with buying a house, if she agrees, is to go with her and hopefully steer her towards a good decision. She has always said she needs a 3 bedroom house. But that will be the majority of what she inherits. She is on her own, and as much as she hopes to convince my brother to move back home, I doubt that he will, and he shouldnt anyway. He is 20 but she treats him like a 10 year old. So really she only needs a one or 2 bedroom place. We house hunted with MIL for months so I can tell her we have a reasonable idea what to look for. So that shuldnt be an issue. And Im hoping that once she doesnt have to worry about paying rent she will be better off. Feel more secure, and more income left to buy food, clothes etc.

Sorry its a bit rambly. Just trying to give you a better picture of the situation, but its complicated and I find it difficult to articulate.

[Jennifer13]

What a tough one.

If you can get her to buy herself a house, I'd let her get what she wants. The bigger and more expensive it is, the less she can just waste. Maybe ask her if you and your brother can go on the deed and that means your inheritance is secure? Not saying that's why (it would just prevent her from selling or taking out a mortgage without your knowledge), but maybe she would get that reason? Less pressing for her to make a will then.

But you are clearly the best judge of how to handle the situation. What does DH think?

It sounds like you are doing all you can.

[nickle730]

Instead of going through legal channels for POA could you convince your mum to put the money into a bank account which require both of you to sign for withdrawls? That way the money would be safe until she finds a house or decides how to invest it.

I do think the first thing to do is to sit down and tell her your concerns. If you phrase it gently, she shouldn't be offended and she might (might!) surprise you with her response!

You mentioned your dad, but I'm assuming they're no longer together?

[Teeki]

She is a danger to herself financially. She is already talking about all the things she wants to buy me. Everytime we mention, we'd like to do this or that for DS its, "well when I have my money Ill pay for it!"
Socially she has no idea. She is intelligent. Just not when it comes to social or financial decisions. She doesnt understand sarcasm, tell her a joke and she thinks you are serious no matter how out there the statement is. She doesnt understand about social hints and cues. Ie, she will come over in the morning, hang around all day then if we say we have to go out she wants to come too. If you tell her your tired she offers to look after DS while I have a sleep. If you tell her you have housework to do she offers to help. She doesnt get that its a hint for her to leave. If you come straight out and say I want you to go you hate her and never want to see her again. Sure, its nice that she wants to help, but after talking to her (which is hard work in itself) for 6 or 8 hours, it becomes exhausting.
The time she is here, or with anyone else, its not limited to me. She spends the conversation talking at you not to you. She doesnt actually listen to anything you say.
Despite her visiting from 9am to 3:30pm one day a week, she wanted to make it 2 days a week. She cant understand why I dont want to spend all my spare time with her. Dont I like her?

This actually sounds a lot like my Mum. But I'm not in your situation because she has my Dad. She doesn't have depression but anxiety from an issue around 15 years ago and that changed her massively. But like you say, it's not her fault and it seems perfectly normal to her.

I just wanted to say I know where you're coming from. And if anything were to happen to my Dad I'd want to sit right down and go through a budget with Mum and make sure she wasn't going to spend up big, no matter how well-meaning it is. But if I were to sit down and tell her I want control of her financials and decisions, she'd be offended. Because what makes my choice right and not hers?

One suggestion regarding the inheritance, could you recommend that she see a financial planner? They could recommend that she spend $XX on an appropriate house, then show her investments that will earn her money in the long run. My experience with financial planners is that they're straight to the point, they can lay it out straight to her, this is what will happen if you don't look after your money, this is what will happen to your kids and grandkids if you blow it all and have nothing for them.

As for you going on the title, I think it's a good idea if it won't affect your centerlink.

Good luck

[AnyDream]

The POA can be a really good idea with ageing parents, buts its designed to allow you to manage their affairs when they can't rather than to limit their decisions in any way. If you're worried about how your mum will manage her inheritance, you could talk to her about that. Is she worried about it too? Suggest investing the bulk of funds into a both-to-sign account, or see a fin advisor or lawyer about what safeguards could be put in place to protect her assets. But ultimately, it's hers to decide what she wants, as awful as that is to watch. And if you're really worried about protecting your own interests (ie, re any future inheritance that you might get from her) then speak to her about that now. Many families have arrangements where property is held in family trusts etc. Your mum might be open to the idea of shared ownership on her next property purchase. But you do need to proceed carefully and make sure she gets independent advice, both to protect her but also yourself. You wouldn't want her turning around in 5 years and saying she was forced or bullied into the arrangements you've helped her with.

[Calluna]

Thats not a bad idea about putting it all into the house.. Im just worried that if/when she does need some money, she then wont have it. She will want to buy some furniture. All of her stuff is either very old or second hand, so I have no doubt some will go towards that.
Im going to have to talk to centrelink to find out how it would affect payments. Im on parenting payment and ftb a and b. Df is hoping to get an appreniceship so he would be on whatever the equivilent of austudy is these days.

I do care about our inheritence, but no where near as much as I care about her security. To not have to worry if she is making her rent each week or has enough to eat, would be a huge weight lifted for us and Im sure her as well.

DF is the one really pushing me to do this. I have (shamefully) burried my head in the sand.

Nickle- i think Thats a really good idea. the problem is she doesnt think logically. I can say Im worried because if things she has done in the past, list examples to her, but she just tells me she wont make that mistake again. Then she does. OR I tell her my concerns and she agrees with everything I say and does something completely different.
She just doesnt get it.

Im not sure how I would approach putting it in a bank account with me (at this point not my brother, he is not behaving like a mature adult. Im not talking about witholding his inheritance, just not access to my mothers money at least until he mans up.). It is easy to explain I want to be able to help her down the track.

My parents divorced when I was very young but have an amicable relationship.

Teeki - I have been thinking about that too- why are my decisions right and hers wrong- I really dont have any right to the money, it is hers. And it is not my responsibility to make sure she manages it wisely. BUT there is no-one else to keep it in check. It WILL all be thrown away. How can I let that happen and her fall back into poverty again?

I was thinking of seeing a financial planner- myself and her as well.. I need to find out some costs.
I think first step is to speak to centrelink and see what they say, then find out how much it will be to speak to a solicitor and financial planner. I really need advice from every angle.

Thanks MD- you are right, and I dont want her to feel bullied either. I am concerned about our inheritance, but the biggest thing is her welbeing. We will survive without inheritance, if she is stupid with this money she will miss her only opportunity for a better, happier life.

I honestly dont know if she is worried or not. I get the impression she thinks it will solve all her problems. It will certainly help if she makes good decisions, it has the potential to turn her life around. But if she makes the wrong ones she will have some nice stuff for a while but after a couple of years shell be back exactly where she is now.

[LuluHB]

It sounds to me that what you need is to set up a trust fund with you as the trustee. The trust can then dispense money for something like a house, pay bills when they become due and you can also set up regular payments for "pocket money". It has better security over simply a bank account in her name but to which you are both signatories because the advantage is that technically it would no longer be her money. However, it has the disadvantage that it is technically no longer her money so she may not agree to it. There are lots of legalities to it all though, so you really need to go and see a lawyer Calluna - with your mum. There is no point going into any of this if she isn't going to be on board. You will have absolutely no chance of having her declared mentally incompetent. Even families with seriously mentally incompetent people still have enormous problems getting their loved one declared incompetent so they can step in, and from what you've said, your mum is just financially very immature.

[fionas]

Ahhhh Calluna - this sounds like a very tricky situation - hats off to you for trying to help your mum even though she sounds like she's hopeless at helping herself.

Rather than seeing a lawyer, maybe see a financial planner yourself first without your mum and see what options there are. I agree that the first priority should be buying a house then ask them what arrangements could be made to pay your mum an allowance from the money that is left with the remainder being put into a high interest account or similar where she can't easily get to it. Or straight into her super (not sure whether she's at an age where she can access it yet).

Then you can sit down with your mum, set a budget for the house/any furniture, decide what she needs to live on week to week and how much should be put into savings/super.

[Calluna]

I did think about a trust fund. Its just hard. I dont know how to put it to her without making her feel like I think she is incapable. But, she is incapable.

I guess I just wanted to have as much info as I could before I approach her with it. Make sure Im doing the right things.

I dont want to hurt her but I dont know how else to help her.

Its not just financial, its in every way. She is immature in every way. She has very limited ability to be logical and reasonable. She cant understand why everyone else doesnt see the world the way she does and assumes everyone knows and sees the same things she does. She has things she obsesses about. Paris. Titanic. Acting and actors. Piano. Very set views on what is acceptable and what is not, which would be fine except that it includes things like centrelink being firmly in the not catagory. She hasnt evolved with the rest of society, views change, social rules change, language, fashions, etc. She is living 30 years in the past. Im just focusing on the financial now because it is the most pressing thing.

I will still suggest EPOA, for later down the track, from a health persective. Her mum (my Gran) had altzhiemers. If my mother develops it too she will need an advocate.

[LuluHB]

Everyone should have an EPA Calluna, whether they're old and infirm, or 30 years old and in the picture of health.