At what point would you take a child to a doctor re behaviour?

[~clover~]

Ok, so DD2 is diagnosed ADHD. Its not so much her behaviour that is the issue, though her lack of self control can be really frusterating. Its her lack of concentration that was the issue. It was a teacher who came to me worried about SPD among other things.
..
DS is going too far. Way too far. I could so easily walk away right now & not look back. I've had it. DD3 is even more challenging for her age But obviously as a 2 year old, its still considered normal.

DS is 5. I spoke to his kindy teacher last year & he had no issues with concentration at the time. He engaged in everything in the class room very well & other than his refusal to interact with adults, he joined in & knew more tha he needed too for his age/grade.

He's demanding. I guess thats a personality trait from his father... I really don't know. But at 5 he still sits on the toilet until I come & wipe for him. No matter what I do, he won't do it himself. If he wants a drink of water, or something to eat I have to get it for him, not one of the girls. And as he's doing now, he'll roll around on the floor, crying & screaming for hours if I let it go.

The crying. OMG. He's known for his crying. Its embarrassing. If he's not happy with his drawing at school, he'll cry. Not just get upset. Over the top tantrum cry. If he gets the wrong colour bib at active after school, he'll cry. It doesn't end. Last week he got yellow, but wanted blue. Over an hour of carrying on.

He lives his life to **** everyone around him off. The girls will be quietly watching a movie, or drawing, so he'll turn the movie off, or pull the drawing out from under them. Or pull their hair, or sit on them. ANYTHING to get a reaction.

He's NOT deprived of attention. He has meccano & lego. We sit together, just the 2 of us, for an hour or so at least once or twice a week. Plus in day to day life, he & DD3 get all my attention. I struggle to make time for the other two We also kick the footy around every few days & do home work together etc.

This has been going on forever. But the last few months he's really pushing it. REALLY pushing it. I plan to change his diet where I can, but the kid is impossible. He hardly eats. We don't do sugar or colourings. I bake most snack stuff myself, but I do have bits & pieces I buy, like they might get a pack of plain chips, or tiny teddies on occasion, if I have extra money to buy.
He only really eats fruit, bread & meat. I can occasionally get him to eat carrot. Won't touch any other kind of veggie, no matter what I do with it. I'm going to start making my own bread again, because we struggle to stay away from white bread.

I'm ready to break down. DD3 is on a very similar level & does similar things, but she doesn't do the crying. The crying is extreme & its the thing I cant handle. I had a cow comment about it at sport last week. Not a 'gosh that kid cries alot' comment. It was 'I'm ****ing sick of this ****, he does this every ****ing week'. NOT true, though it happens a hell of a lot more at home than she see's.

It does happen every day. It probably happens 2 - 6 times a day. The excessive crying/screaming/demanding. I have neighbours very close & I know they hear it all. I know they're wondering why the hell I 'let' him get away with it. I'd love to hear their fix...

I have friends who say they get it, but they don't. I can see it in them all. The same thing. Apparently I let him get away with it. Yeah after hours of screaming, I sometimes do give in. Or I might try to avoid it, but seriously, come live my life & see if you can do better.

And by talking to a doctor, I'm not after a quick fix. I have one ADHD child (no thankyou, that one is sorted, I don't need suggestions for the hundred things I've already tried, it IS ADHD, I don't care if you believe in it or not). I just don't know if this is the same thing or not. He doesn't have the same struggles at school, its his BEHAVIOUR thats the issue. I don't have experience with that to know if thats what I should be looking at?

I'm having a really hard time & I'm so glad I can't afford alcohol, or I wouldn't be able to type this right now...

[AndiE]

Hugs to you hun.

I put up with DS2's meltdowns for months and months before finally doing something about it. I knew his behaviour was more extreme than a typical toddler, but it took me a while to actually do something about it. With DS2, he'd have mega meltdowns and behavioural issues at home ALL the time, but was as good as gold at daycare and out in public. Long story short, he's been diagnosed with sensory processing disorder. It impacts on his ability to problem solve, plus he needs certain sensory stimulations during the day to help him relax/stay on an even keel. It's early days for us, we've only just started OT sessions, but hopefully we'll see improvement soon.

I hear where you're coming from. You give EVERYTHING you have to the child/children who challenge you most to try and make them happy, get them to behave, get them to be happy and it's like they throw it back in your face with even more grief. It's horrible, and it feels like groundhog day, every day. I can only suggest you go to your doctor again. The OT we take DS2 to also deals with behaviour management, so maybe that's an option? Just from what you've written though, it sounds like maybe there's more going on???? Could it be SPD?

Hugs again. I totally "get" where you're coming from, xx

[Miss.B]

Just sending you big hugs clover, wish it wasn't so hard for you

[*Efjay*]

As far as the crying & the "purposely" ****ing people off goes you have described my 8 yr old & 4 yr old. Both Dx with an Autism Spectrum Disorder.

I would start filming episodes & also keep a diary of his carry on's. Then go see your GP, then pead etc.

[~clover~]

I had him assessed by an OT after DD's diagnosis, about 18 months ago. She didn't see anything strong enough to suggest SPD. But I did wonder.
DD2 is a sensory seeker & he seemed to be an avoider, but he's improved since living here. None of the stuff he was doing then happens now.

Maybe if DD3 would start sleeping through I could handle it a bit better. But DD3 does exactly the same crap, without the melt downs.

I can handle DD2. When she gets worked up & uncontrollable, the only answer is to be hard & tough. Its the only way she can snap herself out of it. DS can't, or won't. If he does stop it lasts all of 3 seconds & something else happens to start it all over again. But DD's melt downs are so rare in comparison. Today we had 3 or 4, because she had a sleep over, but the last one would've been a week or more ago. We have good weeks & bad weeks with her. With DS there are just bad weeks, with the rare good day :/


I did wonder about that when I had him assesed efjay. But his social interaction & everything else seems to be normal. He's not great with adults, won't speak to them, but with kids, he's completely normal. He used to avoid more than one on one with kids, but he's fine now.

Maybe I need to see someone different to the OT? Maybe I'll need to do psycologist or something instead...

[TaRhLi.]

Hugs Clover, I'm really struggling with my DS's who are almost 2 with many issues which their speech therapist has told me shows signs of ASD.

After our last session I told her about the behaviour issues I'm dealing with and the tantrums that can go on forever etc, she told me to go to the GP to get a Mental Health Plan for the boys so that they can see a Psychologist to assist with the behaviour - we have our apt this afternoon to get that started - maybe something you might want to ask your GP about. I'm also thinking about getting one done for me as well as I am at the stage already of needing to debrief and get stuff out of my head so maybe you might want to consider that option as well.

I hope you can get some answers soon as your instincts are telling you something needs to be done, so push to get him reviewed. Better to be told it is normal age appropriate behaviour than to keep letting it get so out of control.

[TickToc]

Hugs to you clover, thank you for sharing your story. I can not imagine the strength you must have to be able to get out of bed every day knowing there will always be a battle in your day. My advice is to do as previously mentioned & request a mental health plan from your GP, find & contact a carer support group who can link you with services & ring your local child & adolescent mental health service - sometimes even just talking to an intake worker & getting things of your chest will help reduce your stress levels. I hope you get some support soon xx

[AnyDream]

I think the point at which the behaviour starts exceeding your ability to cope - that's the point where you need help.

Some great ideas and advice already. Also scope out services in your local area that are not contingent upon having a diagnosis to get some support. For example, there may be state or council-funded behaviour support services that you can access in the meantime while the assessment process is taking place.

[~clover~]

I might ask at the school. There isn't much available here that I know of. But I won't know til I ask.

Thanks for the support.

[Cass72]

I also admire your strength. I agree wholeheartedly with Marydean that the time to seek help is that moment in time when you're ability to cope is suffering.

I am completely gobsmacked by the comment from (I presume) another parent relating to a 5 year old child. I am so sorry that you had to hear such a low and horrid comment about your child.

Although we did not have behavioural issues (our family dynamic was different when he was that age - see below**) that you describe, he did cry ...a lot. I was embarrassed about it, which just makes me cringe now that I was embarrassed about my child. Sometimes, looking back, I think I may have been cruel (when pushed to the end of my tether) in trying to make him stop. I remember one time w forgot to bring his goggles to the pool. We had friends visiting from interstate and we all went up to the pool. DS (around 6 by then) cried and begged me to take him home to get them. I told him no and insisted he get in the pool without them and stop being such a sook. Gosh it hurts just thinking about it, it brings tears to my eyes and an ache in my heart. I'm not proud of those moments and would take them back in a heartbeat. I love him so much and wouldn't change a hair on his head.

It wasn't until he was a little older that I came to understand that the crying was in fact his frustration in not being able to be "perfect". Over time the crying stopped as he became more able to deal with his feelings and put them into words, but I truly wish that I had taken it upon myself to have him see someone to help him. I did read somewhere about boys and their emotions. The crying is hard because we expect them to be tough - girls can cry but not boys.

I hope you all get the help that you need.


**Our household consisted of myself, both of my parents and DS. There were no other children in the home so there was no one to really try to get a reaction from.

[AndiE]

Maybe I need to see someone different to the OT? Maybe I'll need to do psycologist or something instead...

From my experience, you're best to work out what's going on with your DS before going to a psychologist. I went to see a psychologist last year when I felt I wasn't coping. We spoke about DS2 being a "perfectly normal toddler" with "perfectly normal" tantrums which he "needed to have in order to learn his boundaries". If I knew THEN what I know NOW about DS2 having SPD I think my psychology sessions would be very different.

Just a thought xx

[~clover~]

Well if not a psyc, I don't know who else to see. I've seen an OT & we did early intervention before we moved here. He's still very shy, but has com out of his shell a lot since living here. Neither the OT, or EI had any concerns.

Cass, I think I kind of agree. He does refuse to do things himself, because he doesn't feel he does it well enough. And he hates being dirty... so hates to wipe himself after the toilet, because he can't tell if he's clean or not.

I don't quite agree about the crying thing though. I know thats how most people perceive boys vs girls, but when the crying/melt downs are this excessive, it'd be seen as abnormal no matter what the gender of the child.

[Artechim]

Can you contact CAHMS and see if they have any assistance in your area? They should have some sort of outreach thing, or be able to refer you to someone in the area.

I have been there and you know in your own mind when it is more than normal tantrums.

Some of the things you mentioned sound very similar to my DS. Specific requests that must be followed, meltdowns over insignificant details etc. Long story short, my DS's problem seems to be anxiety. He was clingy and anxious since the day he was born. He was a walking ball of disaster prior to starting school when he turned 5 so we made a last minute decision to wait until the new year to start him. Thankfully it paid off for us and a lot of the things he was doing (mega meltdowns, compulsive licking, rituals, security items) have faded away almost completely now. He got himself so worked up about it all that even little tiny things were then enough to tip the apple cart. Not saying that is an issue with your son, just my experience. The mega tantrums just plain suck.

What is his behaviour like at school?

Basically you know him best and you know if something isn't right. Do you have any people that you see for your DD2? I understand the frustration of being in an isolated community, it really doesn't make it easy to access help the way the city folk could.

[Santosha]

From my experience, you're best to work out what's going on with your DS before going to a psychologist. I went to see a psychologist last year when I felt I wasn't coping. We spoke about DS2 being a "perfectly normal toddler" with "perfectly normal" tantrums which he "needed to have in order to learn his boundaries". If I knew THEN what I know NOW about DS2 having SPD I think my psychology sessions would be very different.

Just a thought xx

I'm sorry that you didn't have a helpful experience with a Psych Andie, and this is certainly a possibility to consider when seeking advice from anyone - that they might make errors in their assessment. But I don't think it's fair to assume that this would happen with all psychs or that you should not approach one until you have a diagnosis in mind yourself. In fact, the latter can be problematic for an objective assessment too. Having informed questions and details of developmental history, behaviours, triggers, methods already tried and their impact... should be sufficient to assist a psych in making a thorough assessment and ruling in or out disorder or disability. It sounds to me like this behaviour seems above and beyond what's typical and manageable to you Clover. Which makes it more than 'enough' to pursue answers and support. It sounds exhausting and demoralising and I really hope that you get a good referral from your GP or connections through the school and some much needed and deserved support for you and your little guy. Sending you much love in the mean time.

[~clover~]

Arte - he's much the same at school. He will loose it if something doesn't go the right way, but is usually worse when I'm around, because he feels safe with me I think. he doesn't face to face interact with adults, including his teachers. He is ok in group situations, but not one on one. More so with females. He's a bit more comfortable with men (thats why I think this year is a little less traumatic, he has a male teacher).

At the start of the year he had swimming through school. It was a mess :/ He screamed for the entire lesson, twice a day for 8 days. But I don't know what to do. He needs to learn how to swim. He needs to get his confidence up. They DIDN'T push him beyond his level of comfort, but they did try little steps, just to get him a little further. The swim instructors have now done an advanced course that has shown them how to deal with this & go back to absolute basics, as if they were starting out with a 6 month old. They've decided this is what they need to do with him.

He has started licking his hands, to wipe his nose, with his odd need to be clean. I think it may be hay fever, but he used to have a dirty mark on his nose because it was always just a bit runny. He licks his hand before he wipes now to prevent it :/

I have asked about DD seeing an OT through the school, but didn't hear anything more about it.I didn't push any further either. She is now medicated & has made amazing improvements, so I've stopped worrying about OT etc now. Because she's finally learning & that was our biggest challenge. She still has moments where she struggles with every day life, but we work through it the best we can with what the OT at home gave us.

And I am wondering again if moving here was a bad decision :/ But other people in isolated area's face similar problems & get by, I'm sure we can too. Maybe...

[Artechim]

What do you think is going on? Gut feeling.

[~clover~]

Every idea I had was shot down by the OT & we didn't spend enough time in EI I don't think to really get anywhere.

I wonder about ADHD, but while there's no lack of concentration that I know of, it can't really be can it? There is ODD (which he could possibly fall under), but I haven't read anything about that in a long time, so forget the majority of symptoms. And know he's way too young for diagnosis.

I've been putting it down to being stuffed around by his father when we saw him last, but that was 3 months ago. He spent 2 days with him, the girls only got a few hours. I still think a lack of male interaction is a huge part of what ever this is. There is no way the relationship with his father will change though :/

Also there's the 3 years he was taught to treat me like crap. I'm sure his father said some fabulous things while he had him. He let him break all our rules. Allowed him to swear, let him drink most of a box of coke, & probably told him not to listen to me. I did get 'but dad paid for it' attitude for a long time after. He certainly did not pay for ANYTHING in this house except the damn TV. The car isn't paid for! So there is that awesome influence!!

I'm just tired. Over the crying and the disrespect from him. He's 5. I don't even know how he could possibly process his fathers bull**** & put it into words/actions the way he does.

[Artechim]

It must be so much harder having a crap ex to deal with as well, and you are right that it will take some time and a lot of effort to undo that influence present in his early years. Not sure how to deal with that. Are there parenting agencies that might have someone that you could talk to about techniques for moving forward? Has he been doing the annoying/crying/tantrums thing always or just since he got back from his fathers?

Are there any agencies in your area? First step would be contacting them. They will be able to tell you if it is some sort of acronym disorder or a behaviour issue. Before you go, make sure you write down what is happening so they have notes to work from.

I really feel for you. I always seem to be replying in your threads - we both won the bad sleeper captain tantrum lottery. It sucks the life out of you.