OMG Ryn at your parent's thinking you drinking at 10 months was 'cute', omg I would be horrified and would probably ring or take a child to the hospital if they had any kind of alcohol at that age. Spaghetti bolognaise with red wine in it will have no affect on children at all as all alcohol is burned off pretty much as soon as the wine hits the heat of the pot. I really do hope that you seriously look at more research before you let your 10 year old drink alcohol, watered down or not. The fact that the effects that it has on big grown men should show you how much even a little bit will have on a child. And using drinking alcohol early so they don't spit out communion wine is ridiculous, IMHO churh's that have communion should not be offering wine anyway, what's wrong with using a subsitute. At the church I used to go to for many years used grape juice, which is for more friendly to everyone than wine, even though it's just a little sip.
Tanya- You are definitely doing the wisest thing possible. You are doing such a fabulous job as a parent and I hope Alecia will see that one day and thank you for it
Problems caused by alcohol also has more effect on other people. My first stepfather was an alcoholic so his drinking not only effected him it effected, my mum and myself as he took things out on us, and listening to him vomitting in the early hours of the morning because of his drinking was so not a pleasant thing and I remember it so clearly today. He also went to strike me one day and wanted my mum to leave me somewhere and stay with him when she was going to leave him.
wow - this has gotten further than I thought after my post!
The thing is what Ryn is saying is quite true. My dad is originally from England and back when he was a boy it wasn't badly looked upon giving your child an alcoholic drink.
When I was teething my mum used to dip my dummy into a spirit (not sure what it was LOL) and it would set me to sleep.
I have cousins over in England and they send photos of their children asleep with empty bottles in their hands, not the kids of couse, but the parents (they are quite how do I put it, layed back over there).
My parents have a photo of my cousins as children, dressed up as "hookers" with a smoke in one hand and a glass of wine in the other.
My cousins turned out fine, with children of their own - but I can honestly say they aren't as cruel as my aunts and uncles.
Over there from what I know (from family) things are a tad more laid back (when it comes to alcohol) than over here (and we are a pretty laid back country). Over in England you can do proper pub crawls because they are so close together.
I know I am probably not making much sense, but this is all Ryn knows, if she lived over here, it may be different.
Tamara, my family is English too and we were allowed weak alcohol from about 10 or so at special occasions. I think there is a bit of a culture clash at work here. TBH there isn't much more alcohol in watered down wine than there is in cough syrup (maybe less). I don't think that the entire population of England is brain damaged (although that might explian the royal family rofl) so maybe thier approach has some merit.
Then again, from a religious perspective I believe that anything that clouds judgement or harms the body is forbidden so I won't ever be letting my children drink while they are under my care.
Anyway....*puts mod hat on* this thread has gone way off topic and the current discussion isn't really relevant to the original dilemma.
It's also become quite personal and some potentially offensive person comments have been made by a number of posters.
I would appreciate it if you could all re-read your posts and edit out any personal attacks and nasty comments.
If you can't play nice I will lock this thread.
I think its important to note that there are big cultural differences and european countries do generally have a more acceptance of alcohol drinking at a lower age - however alcohol problems in those countries are often higher, although more accepted as it may be that they drink all day long, but with meals (IYKWIM?). It is still an alcohol problem, though.
I think that perhaps when the child is older say 16 or 17 and you are aware that they will be drinking anyway, it might be wise to have them drink it in the safety of your home, but I dont think that means that a parent should go as far as purchasing the alcohol for them. I also dont think you should allow other people's children drink, regardless.
Since most of you haven't taken the oppurtunity to edit your own posts I have done so for you. I have editted any references to facial piercings and any other comments I deem to be potentially offensive.
Please keep any further discussion on track - thanks
My daughter's high school is having a seminar next week on "Teenage Behaviours" which covers topics such as * safe partying * drugs, alcohol and tobacco * early warning signs of drugs and crime *peer pressure and quite a few others. Its run by an ex-policeman who has worked for the dept. education and been involvedin the implementation of the Young Offenders Act. He stresses the importance of parental education and support. I hope it is a good as it sounds cause its so hard at times to parent a teen. I will be very interested to hear what he says aout alcohol.
I don't let my kids have a sip of coke let alone alcohol. I know they are young now but I don't plan on changing my views.
When they ask they are told no as it's a grown ups drink, it's not for children.
Tanya good on you for having the guts to give your daughter firm boundaries. I wasn't, took advantage of my parents apathetic nature, drank to excess and almost choked on my vomit one night. I was lucky that was the worst that happened to me. I lost a few hours of my life and that terrified the hell out of me.
After that night I spent most parties being a mother hen and holding my girlfriends hair while they vomited and consoling one girl who had been raped and bashed. I also saw a 15 year old boy punch out a car window because some guy looked at him the wrong way supposedly.
Hmmm I know I'm jumping in a little late, Just wanted to say OMG to a couple of posts and add that I will first and formost teach my children to obey the law and the law states they must be 18. Why are some people so in a rush to see their children grow up, I say let children be children, give them boundaries and safe guidelines and prey that they listened when you taught them right from wrong. I drink (well ok I don't but I would if I got occassion to) because I am an adult. I teach my kids that When you are this age you can do this and when you are that age you can do that.
I won't buy my children alcohol, I won't let them smoke or drink (to the best of my ability) because when it comes down to it I am the parent. It is my job to be the bad guy, someone has to be the adult so that responsible, moral and caring adult behaviour can be modelled and copied when they are adults not before.
Tanya....Great job, Your a terrific mother and doing a fantastic job.
Dee
I recently attended a Drug and Alcohol info session at DD's school. It was presented by the students (DD is 15).
I wasn't exactly sure what my stance was going to be on drinking before, but I certainly do now.
Our children are dying from alcohol related issues at a rate of one each week. Not long term use, but what happens when they are drunk, and the fact that they binge.
This is such a serious issue I can't stress it enough.
The long term use is a big problem too - there was a big article in the Age recently about the effect we shall start seeing in the next decade or so.
Underage drinking is NOT cool, we need to educate them, yes -but buying alcohol for your underage child is not the way to do it.
My daughter will not be allowed to drink until she is 18. He friends parents know that she is NOT allowed to drink at their homes, and their children will not ever be permitted to drink at mine until they are 18. This has not come up as an issue for us yet, she is very unimpressed when she hears the "cool group" at school discussing how drunk they got and who they had sex with on the weekend.
BTW - I come from a long line of publicans, we often joke there is red wine in our blood - but none of our kids are permitted to drink until 18.
Tanya - hopefully Alecia's school will have a similar program - it was very good, and all the kids involved had to research all kinds of drugs and are all quite happy to wait until later to drink.
My Mum and Dad bought alcohol for me from the age of 14. They would buy a quarter bottle of vodka and I would drink it with my friends with OJ before we went out. This was to stop us drinking it at the train staion/alley way somewhere. In the UK (or at least when I was young) it's easy to get fake ID's and to buy it yourself.
I don't think i'll do this for our kids though, each child is different and it really depends on his/her maturity at the time (not before 15 though).
I got drunk for the first time when I was 11 and unfortunaltly it didn't stop me from doing it again...and again... and again.
Last year I went back to England and over to France to see family. It was my aunts Bday and the celebrations went on for about 4 days. Lots of meals, alcohol and wonderful conversation around enormous tables with children and adults. The children are allowed a glass of wine and it is considered normal and as such not abused. As Ryn said it is so different on the continent.
I really don't know what i'll do with our kids, it terrifies me to think of our children ever ending up in some of the situations I ended up in. I also think if it is totally banned they will go elsewhere, without supervision and be out of control.
I wish there was a simple answer to this but I don't think there is. Communication is the most important thing.
I really think some ppl have missed the point, actually a couple of points, How can any parent encourage and condone their children breaking the law. Children learn what is acceptable from us, their parents. If we don't respect the law how can we expect our children too. On the moral front children should be encouraged to be exactly that...children, parents should be encouraging their child to wait til they are old enough, or what else is there left for them to experience as young adults...voting??? Teenagers might think they are all grown up and can handle themselves in grownup situations but the truth of the matter is they don't and can't, so why would any parent encourage such behaviour. By buying the alcohol and allowing them to drink is enabling reckless behaviour. Also and actually I feel the most important factor is the health issue. Alcohol is evidenced to have devastating effects on young teenage bodies. Alcohol does aweful things to our bodies, oh yes the odd drop of red is good for your heart, but what do young teenage children need that for. Teenage bodies are still growing and developing, alcohol has a negative effect on thier bodies.
So if we drop all the historical stuff of oh but my parents bought it for me and we drop all the racial stuff of differing custums and lets look at the facts, we are heaps smarter then our parents and our children will be heaps smarter then us but with everything we know today about the effects of alcohol on our bodies can any parent really still consider it ok to give alcohol to their children.
It is beyond my comprehension that any parent can justify giving a child alcohol, fully knowing the effects of alcohol on their small bodies.
It is ok to tell our children no!!
Honestly what is the rush, we can still teach responsible drinking to our children when they turn 18.
Last edited by Coolabahdee; July 28th, 2007 at 12:03 AM.
: I can't spell, lol.
The law states children under 18 (and over 5) can drink alcohol, just not buy it. I would never let my child break the law like that!
Yes, alcohol does have an effect on the body but the tiny amounts I would let my children have would have the same effect as my having a small glass now and breastfeeding. Giving a well watered down glass of wine to a teen not even once a month is NOT the same as letting a young child get drunk - of which I do not approve.
As for health - alcohol is good for the heart, but not so good for the liver. The liver can repair itself, the heart cannot. Therefore small amounts of alcohol is nothing to worry about.
I was allowed to drink wine at home during a meal from age 13. I think I will allow the same with my children. I have allowed my 12yo a sip of wine but she doesn't like it, DH has allowed her to sip his beer but she doesn't like that either...same with spirits.
My strategy is to avoid it becoming a taboo issue. DD has witnessed drunken people and she is seriously put off and afraid of them. She is very sensitive to all forms of loutish behaviour and I can tell that she won't want a bar of it when she is older *finger's crossed*
By allowing it at home under supervised conditions and using that as an opportunity to discuss all aspects of drinking, positive and negative, I hope to educate my children appropriately.
Hmmm, this is an interesting thread! It's interesting to see cultural differences in actions so obviously!
We almost never had alcohol in the house when i was growing up. My parents almost never drank (2 glasses of sherry on Christmas day, a box of liquers for my dad at Christmas and maybe a glass of Pimms at one or 2 BBQ's during our short wet Scottish summers LOL). I was given beer at my brother's wedding, where i was the flowergirl, age 2. I thought it smelled like pintpots (a shandy-flavoured gum candy you sadly can't get any more) and i wanted a mouthful. It was revolting. Age 5 i asked my daddy for a chocolate. It was a whisky liquer. It was revolting. I think had nothing more until i was about 15, perhaps a sip of wine here or there, but i never liked it or understood why people had it. Then i started to go to over-18 nightclubs. My parents trusted me and told me not to drink, my dad used to drop me off and collect me on the grounds that if i still got past the bouncers with him at the kerb i was allowed to go in. I literally NEVER drank. I didn't want to break trust. I once had a pimms at a summer barbeque, which was weak and mainly fruit and i didn't get even remotely tipsy and i got my mother's permission (it was a neighbour's BBQ) before i had it. When i was 16 my parents said i was allowed to have one drink when i was in a club. I often had none (coke or OJ is cheaper and they didn't fund me, i had a job!) but i never had more than one, because i knew their trust was precious.
Fast forward a little, at 17 i began drinking more, by which time my parents expected me to be in at a certain time and NOT be rolling drunk. I never was.
The one time in my life i was ever ill from alcohol, this was the scenario. My mum had cancer, i had quit uni to nurse her through radiotherapy, i was 18. I rarely got out of the house. I had gained nearly 24kg in weight because a lot of time i was just sitting with mum while she slept. My friend invited me out, and other friends i knew and she knew decided to give me a good night out. They kept buying me drinks, talking to me, dancing with me, in their own way they were trying to help me cut loose because they could see how hard my life was at that point. I was wasted. I went home and passed out. I woke up and threw up for 12 hours. I slept for a few hours and i was better. I was cured, i have never been so drunk again.
In Europe alcohol is not seen as such a no-no. Really, allowing a toddler a sip of beer or wine IS like letting them have a sip of coke, a bite of cake, something a bit "naughty" but not evil, not by a long way! I mean, look at the Bris, a lot of boys only have a finger or 2 of the blessed wine as pain-relief and they're 8 days old - it doesn't seem to have damaged the intelligence of the Jewish peoples these last 4000 years!
It just isn't seen like smoking or other drug abuse, i guess because a lot of us might have a glass of wine once a month, once a quarter, once a year, but smoking is highly addictive and is rarely done so infrequently (there is actually a technical term for those who can smoke the odd cirgarette without addiction developing, a "chipper" - for some reason they do not become addicted to nicotine despite repeated exposure). Also a small amount of some alcohol (red wine for instance) is known to be harmless or even beneficial whereas even one cigarette is known to be harmful.
Physical addiction to alcohol is secondary to psychological addiction - after one dose of heroin the BODY craves it, one has to drink heavily for a sustained period for the body to start driving the addiction. So of course people can become addicted to alcohol, but not because they drank some watered down wine age 10. An alcohol addiction begins as a psychological addiction to drunkeness, often because the addict is seeking escape, and the risk is one of general addiction, it's not specific to alcohol.
So, to sum up, i'm with Ryn. I was never under the impression that alcohol was anything but a slightly nasty-tasting drink adults, mysteriously, seemed to enjoy. I drink now in moderation (the weekly recommended limit or a woman i consume in perhaps 2 or 3 months). I do know people who thought it was like the Holy Grail in their teens because they'd been so shielded from it, and the lure of the banned substance held sway, and so i will be bringing DD up as i was, that it is no big deal, and not something to be excited about, but also not something we indulge in daily or even weekly. I wouldn't let her try it now, but i wouldn't freak out if someone let her try it as i was allowed to when she's still a kid. I'd rather she drinks safely than insist she doesn't drink and then have her drink irresponsibly due to the forbidden-fruit factor. As Ryn says, in the UK at least it is not drinking alcohol that it illegal under 18 it is BUYING it. In a bar restaurant here you can order full-strength wine for your kid provided they have food and you pay and they are at least 16. I won't be encouraging law-breaking, but i won't be banning alcohol either.
It's great to see such a deep cultural difference though - i can REMEMBER when drink-driving was seen as "cool" in the UK! A few massive government and police campaigns later and it's so frowned upon it's unbelievable it wasn't always so. I wonder what further cultural changes will come about in the new global communication era...
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