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Thread: Babies Born April 16th - 30th 2008 #1

  1. #73

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    Default Sleeping through the night

    Hi Girls,

    I haven't posted since I bought my little boy Ryder home from hospital. I've been reading this thread from time to time, so kind of keeping up to date with how everyone is going :-)

    I feel I need some advice on Ryder's sleeping pattern at night. Between 6-7pm every night, Ryder will want feed & then cries until I put him to sleep. He will not stay up any later without the crying & whinging etc. He wakes between 10 & 11pm for a feed, nappy change & no fuss going straight back to sleep. He then wakes between 2.30am & 3.30am for another feed, another nappy change & straight back to sleep. But then, without fail, every single morning he wakes at 5.30am, does a poo, wants compfort feed (I know its for compfort as he mucks around & doesn't drink for long), goos & gars for about half hour, then whinges to go back to sleep. We usually settle him in our bed after I feed & change nappy at 5.30am & I might get about 1 to 1.5 more hours sleep out of him (on a good day). I am still breast feeding, so every time he wakes it means I have to attend to him. The broken sleep patterns are really taking its toll on me.....
    How can I get Ryder to sleep longer than 4hrs through the night????

    My girlfriend's baby boy is 5wks younger than Ryder and has been sleeping through the night from 8pm to 5am since he was 4wks old! My friend says she cluster feeds Zac between 6-8pm. I don't know how that would work as once Ryder feeds from me, my boobs are empty & it takes 3-4hrs to be full again.



    Does Ryder's sleeping pattern at night resemble any of your bubba's? When can I give him a teaspoon of Farex at night? Would that help fill his tummy a bit better & give me a longer sleep between feeds?

  2. #74

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    Nettie I was told to and have always moved away from the hussle and bussle of the main living area to start settling for the evening. As they get older they get more easily distracted by what is going on around them. I'd recommend sitting with Liam in a chair in a quiet room, not necessarily the nursery if you are not going to have him in his cot whilst starting your settling routine. The reason I suggest a chair is that you can't sit in the cot with him and that way you are getting the body contact and can then settle him off to sleep in the usual way unless you want to give him the message that he lays down, you read a story and then it's lights out sleeping time. I definitely wouldn't do it in the main living area, not that the noise should cease when you put him to sleep, just that he should be removed from it.

    My turn to do a big post for you to have something to read

    Jodie82The questions you are asking have been asked by others before and the response is usually the same. Farex won't make a difference to their sleeping pattern. The routine you are describing sounds much like Greer's only I tend to get either 5am or 6am for the wake and play then back to sleep and hour later for about 1-2 hours.

    I find that the 5.30am poo wake that you are talking about is just that being woken by the bowel movement, he doesn't need to be fed then. Can I also suggest trying not changing his nappy everytime he wakes unless it has leaked of he has done a poo. Get him used to the idea it is night time by having a different routine. Try cutting out the 2.30am change. Do you burp him at the 10.30pm feed? I was finding that wind would cause Greer to wake more often during the night. By getting the wind up before putting her to sleep helps. When you have the 2.30am wake do you automatically give him the breast because you think that is what he wants? Try just putting him near your breast whilst patting his back and see if he searches for it if he tries to get it then he is hungry, if he doesn't it could be wind.

    Don't try to keep him up, the crying is signifying that he is tired. Try feeding him and putting him straight to bed at the 6-7 feed time. The other thing you could do for yourself, which isn't ideal is go to sleep when he does at 6 or 7 to get the bit of extra sleep. When do you normally go to sleep is it after he wakes for the 10-11pm feed? Maybe try dream feeding him just before then see if that works for getting him a little further through the night. Another thing you can do is express off some breast milk and get DH to do the 2.30am feed so you don't have to attend to him, even if it's only every other night that he does this just to give you the chance to catch up.

    For yourself you need to make sure you have vitamin B and fish oil as it helps the brain to manufacture the chemicals that it doesn't get the chance to do because of the broken sleep it just helps you cope a bit more and is good for bubba too.

    I tried cluster feeds and it didn't help us. If you want to try it you'll have to attach Ryder for the feeds, remember it is supply and demand. If he starts having cluster feeds your supply will improve. Earlier threads have suggested using MILO or fenugreek to improve supply.

    Please bear in mind this is just what we have found with Greer and it may not be the same with Ryder. Also sleeping through for a baby is anything over 5 hours so Greer is sleeping through from 6.30 to 11.30pm and I think a lot of the midnight to 6am waking is just because of my being lazy and not burping her because I feed her in bed with me and fall asleep.

    BW Check out the tips on how to photograph your baby on the Jeans for Genes website - you might find BJ hates the flash rather than the camera - use natural light if you can. That said professional or hobby professional photographers do it so well like Sarah and DH's friend.
    I bought a BB Active off ebay for $98 including postage as the original BB was killing me having had a c-section I needed the additional support also. Must get around to listing the original one even if I only get $10 - $20 for it.

    Sharon One day left for Ebay, but one of my 99cent items sold for $41.00 - I think I paid $20 for it new - so I was having a party over that one.

    Okay now it's DS's bed time and DH is off to band practice so I have to go read stories and will no doubt go to bed myself. Have a dentist appointment tomorrow so that means a minimum of 5 hours out of my day with dropping DD off to a friend in the opposite direction to look after her.

  3. #75

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    Jodie - welcome! I'm sorry to say that there's very little you can do to force your child to sleep more than he wants. You can try getting the 'no cry sleep solution' book to see if that helps, otherwise you could start trying to express milk after his evening feed to encourage your breasts to make more milk at this time. Then about a week later, try to get him to feed again to encourage the 'cluster feeding'. My Liam still gets up twice a night and I think you'd find if you went to the Jan baby buddies or the Oct 07 baby buddies that some of those babies are still getting up in the night too!

    In regard to the crying - that's completely normal. Babies often need to 'let it out' at the end of the day as just seeing and experiencing normal things can be quite overwhelming for them. I think most of us on here would agree that our babies have a bit of a 'let it out' session at the end of the day. Just hold him and let him cry to get out all the frustration and angst he has bottled up...

  4. #76

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    sarah I think we all like to ramble on sometimes, and now that the group is a bit smaller I think it is easier for everyone to keep up.
    alittlegrubi I try to be good with what I eat, but if I see something and I want it, I eat it, which is probably why I am overweight, but I think trying to diet and exercise while i'm having a rough time just wouldn't work. One of my ebay items sold for 50c less than what I paid for it, I love it when ebay bidding wars work in your favour
    BabyWrangler where did you get the 'new' farex from? i've only ever seen the heinz one at woollies. That was a great sell price, I like it when you get more for something than you thought you would.
    Nettie I decided to try Oliver on his boomerang type pillow on his tummy and it worked really well, he lasted a whole 5 mins which is really good for him since he would barely last 30 seconds when he was put straight onto the floor. As for the bedtime routine, it is usually, bath at 5.30, out of bath and dressed by 5.50, bottle at 6.00 and he is usually nodding off at the end of his bottle, so when he is finished, he gets wrapped, dummy in and into bed, but have been thinking of starting to read to him before his bottle.
    Jodie82 nice to see you posting in here as for the farex making a difference to sleep patterns there is no proof that it does, what works for one baby doesn't always work for another unfortunately, just like some babies will sleep through the night from an early age and some continue to wake once or twice a night until they are 1-2 years old, grubbi gave you some good suggestions that you may like to try, good luck hun.

    Not much happening with me today, just going to have a day at home. I have an awful ingrown toenail that has been causing me pain for about 2 weeks and I keep putting off going to the dr for it even though it is infected. We finally got Oliver's birth certificate yesterday, we sent all the paperwork off the week after he was born, the registrar didn't sign it until the 15th July!

  5. #77

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    Morning all,

    LOL about my rants, and rambling...

    Well I'd though I would do a quickish one now. I am in office doing DH book work for the business. Am almost in tears, cos I have just paid all our accounts and is it just to depreassing knowning how much my DH spent. Lets say in near $45,000 for 3 month. Now if I spent that about I would be DEAD. Farmers... We had decided to NOT grow potates this seaons. It really isn't worth the hassle for that little lump sump you get after you pay off all your accounts. However we will grow poppies this season. DH killed them last seaon. Idot put the wrong spray on them and it killed them. He still kicking himself, along with me through a kick in now and then.

    Grubi: Well arn't you the luck one to have your DH and not the other woman. DH has a friend like that. And every time we see them I make sure to drap myself over DH to show her he is MINE...
    * On tips on taking better photo's of babies and general stuff I will list a few and I EXPECT to see some in your galleies. It will give you and NETTIE

    Have to go and get show now, I'm a bit smeelly and DS#1 has beeing using my office stamps and has ink everywhere.

    Along with Annoying the CR*P out of me with littlbe bugging questions. He sound like a broken CD skipping on one thing...

    Be back later with some tips
    Last edited by sarah_dobbo2; July 31st, 2008 at 10:19 AM.

  6. #78

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    A quickie before I have my madhouse day of running around and sitting in a dentists chair for 2 plus hours.

    Sharon all my ebay items finish in two and a half hours and so far we have gone over $212.00. Not bad considering only 60% sold and they all started at 99cents or less. And I've been really good and haven't bought anything more since buying the curtains, so I should get at least $150 into the Paypal account so that I can transfer it to the bank without paying any more fees.
    All ended now - $227.

    Last night I took notice of Greer's sleep pattern for you Jodie 5.30-9.45pm wake for feed 1.30am wake for feed 5am wake for poo, nappy change no feed, play until 6.45am feed, in arms nap 7.30am crying and having trouble settling her - refusing breast, just got her back to breast and sleep now at 8.10am, she did a huge fart before settling. She went down an hour early last night so the wake times are usually 10.45pm and 2.30am. Very much like Ryder. So you can take comfort in knowing that you're not the only one.
    Last edited by alittlegrubi; July 31st, 2008 at 12:43 PM.

  7. #79

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    Afternoon all,

    Just finished reading all post. Quick personals.

    Jodie: Great to see you again... How is Ryder going apart from the sleep? And yourself?
    Do you wrap Ryder up?? That is a big thing for baby to feel secure and wrapping is a major help. Think about it, 9 months in small tight place, then come into this world with the limbs, which have a mind of there own. (hit him self in face)
    *Wyatt routin for bed, is bath around 7-7:30 wrapped up TIGHT or he'll escape. Boobie, then into bed awake. He has a little grizzle, which is getting less and less then he's also. I too am with Grubi, don't change a nappy unless you have too. The less stirring you have to do the quicker he will get back to sleep.
    You can only try and see how you go, but get back to us and let us know what you did different.

    Sharon: Today I'm having a lazy house day. I got all cleaning up done, did DH book work, and now am sitting on computer for a change. Oh, on the diet thing, you could say you are on a SEE FOOD DIET.. (get it??) but say it fast so people think its a seafood diet.

    Grubi: Hope all goes well at Dentist, and you not there that long or experince to much pain.

    Nettie: I do what stated above, but I do it in lounge room if other kids have already go to bed. I also turn all lights off, and put lamp on. If kids are still up I go into our room, and sit on bed. A quiter area, I leave TV on for background noise for Wyatt when he is in his bed, 'cos when DH goes to be he only going to turn TV on anyway so I just take out the starlte factor in it.

    Ok, so I said I would give you some of my tips which I use when doing my photos.
    1. Get down to there level. Lay on you tummy if they are.
    2. Use a simple background. Get rid of all the different clutter
    3. Capture all emotion and feelings. (E.g. smile, tears, sad, happy, laughing)
    4. Move in close, fill up your view finder with the subject. Do you want to get a lovely little baby or the big mess on the floor photo?
    5. Try using you camera at different angles. E.g. looking down, up, tilt you camera a little?
    6. Include other people. Remember to keep baby/children at the same eye level as others.
    7. Turn your camera and get some vertical/portrait shots.
    8. Try and use natural light near a window, instead of a flash. But no direct sunlight. If you have a silver Car Sun Visor, use that on floor (out of camera sight) to take away double chin.
    9. Take lots of picture. Even if you take 50, you may only get 5-10 really good ones.
    10. Take picture frequently babies/children change so fast.
    11. Get a tripod and get in the photos with your kids. All you do it put self timer on and run like made, make sure you don?t trip over tripods on way back or you have photo of carpet.

    There are get website out there we can all copy photo from. to try and re-do ourselves. Have a go...

    Well Me, am off to sit on lounge and have a large glass on water and very thurst today.
    Will check back tonight.
    Last edited by sarah_dobbo2; July 31st, 2008 at 02:56 PM.

  8. #80

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    Sharon I say eat what you want, but believe it or not, exercise is actually a very good antidepressant, so maybe getting out to do some exercise might make you feel better, don't worry about it actually helping with the weight, just do it to help the chemical imbalances, and make that rough time a little less rough.

    Sarah Lucky for me dentist isn't painful except on the hip pocket... I'm about to spend more than your DH spent on farming on my teeth. I spent $7000 before falling pregnant and now have to redo the treatment as it had to be stopped whilst pregnant - so far that has been $4500 and next week we meet to review the actual dental work plan and although 12 months ago the cost was to be $44000 it's likely to be more now - inflation . So far the dentist visits are just to adjust my bite, the actual work involves crowning every tooth to compensate for the 2 to 3mm I have worn away from night grinding to the point of getting through the enamel and exposing the dentine (soft centre). If I do nothing eventually I'll wear my teeth totally away and in the process end up with headaches, back pain, poor sleep and a whole bunch of other symptoms caused by the fact that my muscles are working overtime trying to get a comfortable fit with my teeth. (Didn't explain that well). So I am taking enough money to buy a damn good car, a sizable deposit on a house etc and sticking it in my mouth It was not an easy decision to make, but I worked out that it's about as much as DH would spend on his supplements in 3-4 years, I'm just spending it in one hit.

    In relation to me being the lucky one to have DH, it goes both ways, we are lucky to have each other for various reasons. I feel absolutely no need to show displays that DH is mine with said friend or anyone else for that matter. I'm actually the total opposite and give him so much space that most people think that we must be having problems in our relationship because I don't treat him like a possession. He can do whatever he wants and because I allow him the freedom he doesn't feel the need to take advantage of it. I'm sure that if the shoe were on the other foot , i.e. he was with her and I wanted him he wouldn't be allowed to see me alone.

    Thanks for the photo tips Sarah. Maybe one day I'll get the enthusiasm to actually do some photography rather than happy snaps.

    DD had another screaming day today, fussy with her feeds, explosive poos and one big chuck this afternoon, she was in bed before 6pm again tonight. Really don't know if I need to take her to a doctor. She does have some happy time during the day and is fine at night... no temp. Maybe it is just because I'm being so bad with my daytime eating atm. Chocolate and Iced coffee are the staples in my diet - naughty me - (see Sharon definitely not a dieter myself - great comfort eater I am).

    Off to put DS to bed - I've missed his usual bed time being on here, so better go now before it is too late.

  9. #81

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    Af has arrived with avengance!!! i am feeling so tired and drained today its been 16 months since last AF bleed and its taking its tole on my body. my scar hurts my body aches ect and doc has prescribed mini pill to start today. Hello weight gain. i hate contraceptives going to have to have more sex to counteract the excess fat im going to put on.. poor me!!!!

    how life treating the rest of you today

  10. #82

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    alittlegrubi nice little ebay profit you had there, I have spent about 1/2 my ebay earnings getting Jordans birthday/xmas presents (some of them) he really wanted Mario Kart for Wii and Mario & Sonic at the olympics so have got him those, the Mario Kart came with a steering wheel, so I bought another steering wheel for $20 so there wouldn't be any fights. I have to say that the days when I get stuff done I do feel so much better, but it is the motivation that I am lacking. My DH and I are like that, he can do what he wants and so can I, we both have other hobbies/interests that are separate from each other, so as long as we 'book in' if we are going out so that the other one knows not to make plans, it's all good.
    sarah they are some great photography tips, i've always been one for getting down on the ground, I took some more of Jordan and Oliver yesterday and will have to upload them later today.
    Zennie you poor thing, when I had my first AF the other week it was hell, I refuse to go on the pill though because I hate the weight gain, and DH won't get the snip, so we have to be careful, we have used the 'withdrawal' (sorry if TMI) method for years, and have never had any 'scares' and especially now that I know when I ovulate because of the charting I did. I have heard that there is a new IUD out, but can't remember what it's called, have been considering having that.

    Had a horrible morning today, Jordan was being a PITA, and when we got to school (25 min drive) he realised he had left his cap at home and didn't want to wear his normal wide brim school hat today since it was sport day, he wanted me to drive all the way home and get it, I had to pry his hands off of holding onto the back of the drivers seat, and drag him out of the car, he then wouldn't line up and was just being a real brat, and because of my depression I started to cry with all the other mums standing there, Jordan then asked why I was crying, and when I told him it was because he wasn't doing as I asked him and that was making me upset, he started crying, I managed to settle him down and told him that if he does what I ask I won't be upset anymore, which worked and he ended up going in to class happy. There was one little boy that was just standing there staring at my while I was crying and I snapped at him by saying "can you go away please" which he did. One of the mums came and took Oliver for me while I sorted Jordan out which was nice and then gave me a bit of a hug.

    Taking Oliver to the community nurse today to get him weighed, I really don't think he has put much weight on in 2 weeks though, think we will be lucky for it to be a 100g

    TTFN

  11. #83

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    Have just got back from community nurse, and Oliver weighs 6.85kg which is a gain of 200g, he is 63cm so has grown 1cm, and his HC is 41 which is an increase of .5cm and that was in 2 weeks, so he may be fussing with his feeds, but he is still growing which is good. Have also been advised to take him to gp to get some suggestions on what to do with his formula as the nurse said it does sound like he is lactose intolerant because of his 'explosive, frothy poos' and also because he 'farts' a lot too, so the Dr may want a poo sample to send off to check.

    Have a great day everyone.

  12. #84

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    Zennie I've been getting lower back pain on and off and have had days when my scar area is tender - never evn thought that it could be about AF. Not looking forward to it especially now that you've mentioned scar pain. We are like you Sharon take the risk but haven't had any need to do HPTs other than the two times we have planned to have children. DH would say we don't do it often enough for anything to happen . In fact it wasn't until 1 week before 3 months after Greer was born that we DTD and yes it was great, want to do it again soon, if only I weren't tired all the time.

    Sharon I know exactly what you mean about getting upset because the DS isn't doing what you ask. I wish all I did was cry when it happens to me, instead I yell and feel really bad afterwards. I took explain if you did what Mummy asks you to she wouldn't growl at you. My DS is just short of 3, so he gets away with his cuteness most of the time and the moments end with "Mummy you not growl me evergen OK!" I'm glad that I only have the odd day where the tears flow, but can understand where you are at as I had that when DS was 16 months old - more from work stress than PND - but the slightest thing would set me off. Monday was like that for me this week.

    We had a bad night last night, I think Greer was having trouble breathing through her nose, she woke so often, that I didn't even wake up to DH making his lunch in the morining which I ususally do.

    Must go and clean the house today as yesterday was a write off with the dentist appointment.

  13. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by alittlegrubi View Post
    We are like you Sharon take the risk but haven't had any need to do HPTs other than the two times we have planned to have children. DH would say we don't do it often enough for anything to happen . In fact it wasn't until 1 week before 3 months after Greer was born that we DTD and yes it was great, want to do it again soon, if only I weren't tired all the time.
    Grubi We are exactly the same, we NEVER seem to go to bed at the same time and once either of us are asleep god help the other person if they try to wake us up we've managed to sneak a couple of 'morning glories' in since Oliver was born and that's all

    I have to try and do some housework today too, have my uncle and aunt coming down tomorrow and my house looks like a tornado has gone through, at least Oliver is being a good boy at the moment, he woke briefly from his sleep but I put his dummy back in and he has gone back off to sleep which will mean he will be there for at least 1.5 hours

  14. #86

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    hey girls!

    Geez! I havnt been in here in months I think so apoligies apoligies! I have been pretty unwell and so busy with both my 3.yo daughter and bubby Ryley too.

    Just a quick stop by to see how we all are going and to see how those who had c sections are coping? I am okay, my doc thinks I have an absces now the pain comes and goes and theres something that keeps swelling up on the inside all the time above my scar. Does anyone know anything of these after c sect's how they happen and how they get rid of them? I am full on freaking cause I still dont want anyone anywhere near my tummy!

    Bet we have loads of laughing babies and busy bodies now!

    everyone thinks ryley is 6-8 months old from how big he is! unbeleivable! he was a rediculous 10 lbs 13 oz when born but he is sooooo long now people honestly dont beleive me when I tell them he's only just over 3 months! lol oh well.

    thanks in advance!

  15. #87

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    Can someone let me know if the link in my signature works to take you to the photos that I've loaded. Tried to use some of Sarah's tips, but she is grumpy today, so only two came up, need to work on the exposure - its overcast here today.

    Danielle Welcome back. for the c-sect issues. I have pretty well recovered from my c-section. There doesn't seem to be the same level of feeling in my tummy - could just be the stretchmarks but it feels different in some spots. I can sense strong scar-tissue on one side where it used to burn. I have had days of pain in the last week and get a crampingstretched muscle kind of pain in my right hip. It's all turned me right off the thought of ever having a third child.

    Sharon I'd love to get an hour and a half sleep out of Greer, I'm lucky to get 20-30 minutes at a time. I'm about to put her down now, lets see how long htis one lasts, I only got 20 minutes last time.
    And 24 minutes this time
    Last edited by alittlegrubi; August 1st, 2008 at 03:31 PM. Reason: time for sleeping

  16. #88

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    grubbi: thanks! Yeah Im not too bad just pain comes and goes in my belly going for an ultrasound tuesday to check for an absces sounds so gross! I would love more kids but hubby dont want no more now so guess we're done.

    Sharon: I agree wif grubbi, my little guy doesnt sleep for an hour and half! he sleeps 20-30 mins at a time hes been asleep for longer than that now so fingers crossed.\

    For all of you who had big bubbas... are they feeding frquently? Ryley changed when I took him off the booby and onto formula he was actually full for a change and didnt feed every 30 mins hehe little bugger. But now.... hes waking every 3 hrs round the clock... he was sleeping through! I think its toothy pain combined with little holes in his tummy. So we have started giving him the weeniest ammount of farex really milked down with his milk, he loves it doesnt bother his tummy (must be cause its so weak) but he always wants more so I have to fill the rest of him up with milk.

    Are our babies getting cranky yet? maybe hardish gums? my 1st started teething between 3-4 months hehe the joys I think I get more upset cause I cant fix it for him! poor little things.

    Gotta go Im on call hes awake and grumbly.... take care

  17. #89

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    Sharon: Oh dear, I have had moments like you and Grubi which have brought me to tears, and DS#1 standing their asking why mummy crying. I know if I were there I would have handle Jordan and told him to get him line for you. ATM if a stanger tells Landon (DS#1) to do something he will. But if mummy ask's he just doesnt listen. It's good to hear that at least one mum wasn't complete useless and came to help you...

    Grubi: Gee, I'm glad I don't have your denits bill. I hate owning people money. I would just rater pay them. Never went into debt until I meet DH and he only in it until his crop money comes in and then hes out and in front. It just really freaks me out paying/owing larges amounts of money, just incase something happens and get bad crop we have to flip the bill.

    Zennie: I remember my fir st AF last month. I thought DH was going to have to take me to hospital, as I thought I was going to DIE. I never get pains when I get mine. Speaking of which it is still MIA... Please come back where ever you are AF...

    Danielle: Wyatt was a biggen, and he doesn't feed every 30 mintues. When he wakes up he get his boobie, them when he goes back down for nap. He is sleeping much better in his cot during the day now. Am getting 3 solid 1-2hr naps which is great. I plan to clean house and get shower during morning nap. Second nap, me and Landon play together (playdo, cooking, painting, sandpit or bubbles) Third nap, is my time to check my ebay and here. Oh, and catch up on my Hollywood gossip of net. I know I don't have a life...

    Well went to community house today landon only little boy in child care there, but he had fun. Me I almost fell asleep in training session. Get this is was about how to deal with diffuluct children and their behaviors. Its called 1-2-3 Magic, same principles as counting and giving them the warning, but will alot less talk. Seem to be working on Landon. We cover tamturasm in public, car and while U on phone. Will see how it goes. I got DVD of teacher to show DH so we can be consitant together.

    Well it's raining here today, so am bit cold. I better get going and put some more wood on the fire, to get it going.

  18. #90

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Perth - Eastern Suburbs
    Posts
    391

    Default

    Sarah I just wish a dentist had told me about what I was doing to my teeth 10 years ago so I could have just gotten a mouth guard for nights instead of having this bill that needs to be paid upfront in total. I could handle it if it were in smaller installments a lot easier. It's like $2 here and there you don't notice until you add it all up.
    Just got letter from bank saying interest rate has gone up again an kindly part with another $21.60 per month please. That makes ot even harder to deal with as we had to add the $44000 to the mortgage to be able to afford to pay it, wasn't going to do it on a 5 year loan the dentist gave me paperwork for, interest rate was ridiculous.
    GTG DS is home and wants a mookshik - milkshake. might have one myself -

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