Atheism/Agnosticism General Discussion #1

[echidna]

Actually it was a hypothetical friend. I do have religious friends who know that I have been in and out of religion, and don't push it anymore. They know that I will go to church when I am ready.

Its not that I don't believe in God. Its more of a, there might be a God, but I don't see the point of praying in my opinion. Many people need it, and I understand that. But I take a step back and look at it this way, the most devout countries have more poverty, famine and disease than secular, or not-so-religious countries. IMO praying doesn't produce money, food or medicine (or a cure), so I feel its a wasted effort. Everyone needs hope, but I'm more of an active prayer. How can I actually do something about my plight, rather than praying for God to fix it?

[suse]

I don't know that many people of faith would agree that prayer is simply about asking God to 'fix' things as such, and of having a passive approach to life, my understanding is that self-determination is recognised in most theistic faiths, hence the human capacity for free-will. (ETA: I'm happy to be corrected if this is not the case)

Being non-religious does not necessarily mean that you are agnostic or atheist though, and there are many people who have some form of faith without following an organised religion.

The principle tenet of agnosticism is knowledge, whereas the principle tenet of theism/atheism is belief. As a philosophical position rather than a statement of faith, agnosticism is independent to theism, in that one can follow a theistic doctrine or have belief in a god without claiming to have or wishing to have knowledge of the existence of that god. Although it at first seems contrary in nature, it can be argued that the very notion of faith is by definition agnostic - insofar as faith is belief without knowledge, and thus all theists are also agnostic.

Another good explanation of the agnostic position is this (from aboutatheism website):

Philosophically, agnosticism can be described as being based upon two separate principles. The first principle is epistemological in that it relies upon empirical and logical means for acquiring knowledge about the world. The second principle is moral in that it insists that we have an ethical duty not to assert claims for ideas which we cannot adequately support either through evidence or logic.

and

Agnosticism can be classified in a similar manner to atheism: 'Weak' agnosticism is simply not knowing or having knowledge about god(s) - it is a statement about personal knowledge. The weak agnostic may not know for sure whether god(s) exist but does not preclude that such knowledge can be obtained. 'Strong' agnosticism, on the other hand, is believing that knowledge about god(s) is not possible - this, then, is a statement about the possibility of knowledge.

[echidna]

Well I don't really read into things. I honestly didn't know the definitions of the terms, and I wasn't really interested anyway. But, I guess I am more agnostic than athiest. More of a weak than a strong agnostic. I don't not believe in a higher power, but I feel there could be one, but I don't feel they need my worship. When I have actively prayed, my life was no better than when I am not praying. I don't believe in miracles. I am a scientific person, and everything can be explained. If things cannot be explained, given time and more knowledge of the universe, it will become explained. Look at history, magic and blasphemy were science, and those that did not understand were afraid and persecution ensued etc. After the dark ages, science was popular again, especially in the health field. Everyone wanted to see a doctor to cure ails, rather than the priest for a blessing.

One of the most famous miracles, Jesus walking on water. I just keep saying to myself, he was walking on a sandbar. That's if Jesus ever existed. If there is no proof, then it is likely to not be true. I believe in the theory of evolution. So much evidence. To believe that Adam and Eve were the first people, to me, is preposterous. They had two sons, one of which killed the other. How the heck does the human race develop from that family? And furthermore, there would have been very little genetic difference, leading to birth defects. Its beyond me.

I respect that many many people believe in a faith. To believe that someone or something is moving the pieces of life in place and so forth is important to many people, who feel that something must explain what they cannot explain. I believe there is a good chance there is a higher power, but I have less than heresay in a form of evidence. Sometimes a coincidence or event is just too odd to have happened naturally. But I try not to think that it is a higher power who performed it, as I have no evidence.

I get the occasional whisper, I guess similar to being psychic. I don't believe I am psychic, but sometimes I get a whisper, a yes or no question, without warning or reason to dispute. I only have a moment to make the decision before an event. I do not know what the event is. When I was younger, a tree fell against the house. A branch went through the open window, and moments before, I had a whisper: go over and get that block. So I did. Had I not moved, the tree branch would have gone through my face. Every now and then I get whispers. Another time was when I was in high school. I was fooling around with my boyfriend in my bedroom with the door closed. My top was undone. I had a whisper, do up your shirt and stop fooling around. I did that. Sat on my bed reading, and Mum opened the door with force, glaring at me. But I wasn't doing anything wrong. Had I not done what the whisper said, I would have been sorely punished.

DD is upset, back later.

[suse]

I honestly didn't know the definitions of the terms, and I wasn't really interested anyway.

Oh well. I hope you got some benefit from the info, and if not, I'm sure someone else will find it useful

[echidna]

The info was great Suse, but I more came in here for a general chat about agnosticism rather than talking about definitions.

[Aimz]

What would you like to chat about echidna?

[paradise lost]

I have prayed in my lifetime. I have never prayed to have more money though, or better health or anything like that. I have only ever prayed (to the general ether, since my beliefs don't fit into any particular religion) for the strength to bear what is happening, and to date my prayers have ALWAYS been answered.

Suse the terminology was helpful, thanks. What amuses me slightly is that i too am scientific and in science there are MANY more questions than answers. Even a small look at particle physics reveals many strange effects which cannot be explained in any way that fits in with our understanding of the laws of physics. The more we know, the less rigid the "laws" become. So how the "scientific" approach of knowledge rather than faith remains is somewhat mysterious. The existence of a higher power cannot be proved, but if one already believed the proof would be all around. A non-believer accepts no proof and a believer needs none.

Even quite simple things which we all feel we have a strong grasp of remain incredibly mysterious. Look at our treatments for cancer. Cut it out, poison it, irradiate it. Because we don't know WHY cancer begins, and thus we cannot figure out how to STOP cells turning cancerous. The best we can do is cut them off after the event. Even with cervical cancer - we now know and can vaccinate against the strains of a virus which make it far more likely that cervical cells with become malignant, but we cannot prevent it once the infection is present!

I suppose i am reluctant to denounce anything unproven just because it is. Once the world was flat.

Bx