Born Evil?

[Bathsheba]

Regarding the crime in wealthy countries VS the perception of lower crimes rates in poor countries:

I think you can't really compare however i think that in the wealthy countries EXPECTATION has a lot to do with many crimes. Via the media people in wealthy countries can compare their lot in life to the "rich and famous" and of course their lives fall short. In our Western society is is deemed healthy to feed ones ego. Advertisers keep ramming down our throats that we "deserve" this or that. So we pursue things with a sense of entitlement.

In poorer nations people tend to only compare their lot in life with others in their immediate surroundings. And for many this makes them feel fortunate. Also their actions are probably more accountable as they depend on each other more. Wealth tends to bring autonomy; if you have money you don't need the help of others to survive as much.... you don't need to protect your reputation.

[rosehannah]

Hi everyone, this is great, as I have been following this post lot of questions have formed in my mind.
One thing that I hear alot from spiritaully minded people is that we are put on this earth to learn from our mistakes (so that they can advance on their spiritual jurney and that we will keep making the mistake until we learn the lesson). That sound fine when you talk about a failed relationship, but what about murderers or rapists? Is this just an excuse or are we put on this earth to make mistakes, which would mean we were born to do these things and make the desisions that lead up to the evil act? I tend to believe that we are supposed to learn from our mistakes but have trouble believing that it was all decided upon pre birth and that we were sent to do these things. All things seem to have a reason for being, everthing seems to be linked, if so then evil must have a place in this world, we may not like the people who do these evil acts but it gets us thinking about it and we learn from it and hopefully we learn that it would be a better world if we all tried to love each other and get along, we create laws and rules and forums to help to make it a better world.
I suppose my question is asking whether our spirit and body are one or seperate and then how do external influences such as nurturing, drugs and environment effect the body and sole. I find myself swinging like a pendulum on these matters.

[Matryoshka]

Also bath we perceive there being more crime than their really is due to the media saturation effect. 27 minutes of crime vs perhaps 30seconds for a good will piece at the end. Its all about fear and consumption.

[soul]

rosehannah excellent question, excellent. Perhaps these evil people are not learning there leassons so keep going over and over it . I do believe also that there has to be balance i thw world so there is good and bad in everything and that includes people, and people in the after life too. So perhaps some of these rotten evil people were not so evil to begin with but maybe thay end up taking subtances of drugs, or they had a mental ilness, and there for at such a weak state in there life had what we call low level energies attacht themselves to them and make them do such horrific things to others. Just a thought! You now how peple say that the "Voices" told them. Not in ever case though, I reckon some just have a brain imbalance. But we can speculate as much as we all want, we will never know the real reason as to why people turn or are evil. Bu to answer your question, yes they have lessons too, they will have to answer to that higher being when they die. Some call him God! And there soul will not involve spiritually till they stop committing evil crimes. The brain is the most powerful tool on this earth! And if there is a imbalance in it can you imagine the danger it could cause? I could go on forever on this but not enough room to discuss it all, but you brought up an excellent question!

[paradise lost]

Bathsheba, i do understand, i know you seek to understand, but it seems to me that the question "WHY did YOU do THAT?" is better than "WHY did THIS happen?". I feel that responsibility is diminished when understanding is sought. It doesn't HAVE to be this way, but it can be and sadly, in the current climate of therapy-for-all i think it is. That is society's problem though, not yours.

Take sexual abuse. We all know sexual abuse damages lives. Abuse changes people. However, what is the USE of knowing a killer was abused? We KNOW abuse is wrong (an evil itself). We have laws to protect against it, counsellors to help deal with it, drugs to suspend the effects of it while victims scrabble to put themselves back together. It still happens sadly. But it is not an excuse for killing. Every abused child does not grow up and kill. MOST abused children do not grow up and kill.

In some ways i think that's about expectation too. Around 70% of women suffer some sort of abuse or sexual crime in their lifetimes. DId you know that? 70%. That ranges from being flashed once to full-scale, long-term abuse or rape. But we do not talk about it, and when women are abused they feel alone and lost and like it must have been something to do with them because it doesn't happen to everyone else. Our expectation is that something like that will never happen because we do not hear when it happens, and in the vast majority of cases it goes unreported. I know many, MANY women who have been raped, date-raped, molested, flashed, and they didn't report it, they just went on with life. Because they were drunk, drugged, out where they shouldn't have been, you name it. I was flashed once and it never crossed my mind to report it - it barely even registered. So in most cases we pretend this is not happening, and then we are emotionally devastated when it happens to us. Perhaps if people knew how common it was and, crucially, that recovery is possible, they would be less damaged by it in the first place.

As for rapists and murderers and their fate... Could it be that without them the fates of their victims could not be fulfilled? Sometimes suffering is required to teach us things we could not otherwise know. If Judas Iscariot had not betrayed Christ for money, humanity could not have been saved by his crucifixion.

Bx

[Nelle]

Bec, I think the USE of knowing someone's history has to do with intervention. Sure, I know that to yell at my husband is wrong (just like many people know that murder is wrong), but I'll still do it - unless someone sees the symptoms before hand (me kicking the kitchen drawers and muttering to myself) and then tries to address the problem that's causing those behaviours (like if I need calm down in order to communicate effectively). Then, I still have a choice to make, but if the cause of potential bad behaviour has been removed/I've learned to control it, then I have no reason/motivation to behave badly anymore. So if we know that a person who commits 'Z' crime, experienced or displayed A, B, D, F, and P elements, and this seems to be a trend, then perhaps when others display/experience these things, someone can try to intervene.
It's perhaps also helpful with rehabilitation, sure, an abuser might know they're wrong, and be punished, but if the reason they abuse isn't addressed, then why would their behaviour change? And even still, it might not change, but we have to try.
(Is that kind of what you were getting at Bath? Kind of?)

If evil is to commit an evil act without a conscience, then does it have to be one or the other? Could there be evil by nature and evil by nurture? People who were born without a conscience, and people who have learned to entirely ignore/turn off their conscience? I don't have the answer to that I don't think...

[paradise lost]

Hi Nelle, i kind of understand what you mean, but in that case is it the cause of the behaviour that's wrong or the behaviour itself? If i'm annoyed at someone and scream at them even though i know it won't help, it is the screaming that's the problem, not the being annoyed. Everyone gets annoyed, it's a fact of life. We cannot control what everyone else does, we can only hope to control what WE do. Why is it up to someone else to see how i'm about to behave and help me prevent it? Why is it not up to ME to control my own actions?

As far as i can tell from reading on the subject psychopathy in children is more common than psychopathy in adults, indicating that it is something which CAN be grown out of/remedied. In many cases the signs are clear and raise concerns but are common enough that no massive intervention is made. In a recent essay i read Mary Bell was compared to Dennis Nilsen.

Mary Bell's father was a thief, in and out of prison, who didn't live with his family so that the mother could collect government benefits. Mary Bell's mother was a prostitute who frequently left Mary alone while she went off to "work" in Glasgow (from Newcastle). Mary said as an adult that her mother used to sell her to customers as a very small child too, though when Mary was a child she denied this and all family members asked (many of whom were happy to confirm Betty Bells other misdemeanors as a parent, say they were unaware of it or outright deny it, Mary's brother says he never witnessed it). Mary suffered at least 3 "accidental" drug overdoses as a small child, which probably left her with brain damage. Aged 5 she saw her five-year-old friend killed by a bus right in front of her. Mary's mother frequently dumped her as a baby, leaving her with family members, strangers, anyone, but always going back for her and refusing to fully give up her child. The mother sounds (just IMO) like she had histrionic or narcissistic personality disorder. She was not a consistent or loving mother and Mary was not cared for and protected. When she was 10 Mary, with the company of her friend Norma (who was not convicted of the killings) strangled two little boys, aged 3 and 4, to death. One of them was cut and shaved after death, his genitals cut and an M carved into his stomach with a razor. She then wrote notes saying she was a killer, went to the victims houses and asked to see the babies in their coffins, and followed the parents in the street asking "Do you miss him? Do you cry? Are you sad he's dead?" She was convicted in December 1968 and sent first to a high-security reform school and then to prison. She was released in 1980. She was convicted of "Manslaughter due to diminished responsibility" as the court doctors found her exhibiting the classic psychopathology symptoms. She was offered, but was resistant to, counselling throughout her time in custody. She appears to be reformed but not through external help. She had a daughter in 1984 whom she was allowed to keep. Clearly EVERYTHING about Mary Bell's childhood was dangerous and damaging. Her younger brother, who grew up within the same household, killed no one.

Dennis Nilsen's parents marriage was an unhappy one, his father was a poor provider and he and his 2 siblings lived from early on with his maternal grandparents. Dennis especially loved his grandfather. His childhood was not violent, there was no abuse either rumoured or documented. Dennis himself thinks seeing his grandfather's body after he'd died (when Dennis was 6) was what damaged him. He says his mother took him to see, but didn't explain in advance that his grandfather had died. He never exhibited rage, cruelty to animals or other children, or any type of aggressiveness typically associated with conduct-disordered boys who become killers later in life. In fact, he was horrified by cruelties that he witnessed by others. He and a friend once found the body of a man who had drowned when drunk, while part of a search party looking for said man. He was pretty much a loner, homosexual but single. He joined the army but was discharged for alcoholism. In 1975 he had a boyfriend he lived with for 2 years but eventually asked him to leave. Between 1978 and 1983 he killed at least 15 men. He got them very drunk or drugged, then drowned or strangled them. He then kept the bodies for several days, posed and washed them, then hid them under floorboards, in cupboards, around his home for months. When he ran out of space after several killings, he disposed of a body. He then dismembered and disposed of the bodies, flushing some parts of them down the lavatory, leaving entrails out for wildlife, burning some, burying some. He was eventually caught when the drains, unable to cope, blocked up and a company was called to unblock them. The police were called when human remains were found. Nilsen didn't deny when he realised he was caught. Many of his victims have no names since they were homeless and not missed at the time and Nilsen himself doesn't remember their names or didn't ask them. None of his siblings grew up to be killers.

So we see that from 2 very different beginnings came two similar ends. Surely Mary Bell's mother made criminal errors in the upbringing of Mary, not bonding with her at all, failing to protect her, CAUSING her harm, and leaving her daughter anchorless in a cruel and twisted world. One might almost say Mary had very little chance of being normal, even if she HADN'T become a killer. And then Dennis Nilsen's mother who in fact did her best, did not abuse him or expose him to danger, tried to keep him safe and treat him well. Sure, the final respects to his grandfather could have been handled better, but perhaps her father's death had skewed her own ability to think clearly that day, or perhaps she DID explain and in his distress and sense of los Dennis diesn't remember. Do we find that error, the one to which Dennis attributes his future behaviour, to be a criminal one, and what course of action should be taken? No children to see dead relatives? Professional counselling to be provided to every family?

I think basically we can only ask in retrospect what makes someone do something. Yes, i think we should investigate why people do what they do to some extent, for their rehabilitation. But ultimately we cannot know in advance what will make one person a killer.

Bx

[Bathsheba]

Nelle: yes :"So if we know that a person who commits 'Z' crime, experienced or displayed A, B, D, F, and P elements, and this seems to be a trend, then perhaps when others display/experience these things, someone can try to intervene."

... that was a good way of explaining it