Do you believe in evolution or what your holy book says?

[Maruschke]

Just another thought, but I am not sure whether or not it is relevant to a muslim .

As christians, there are two vital elements for salvation. Repentence of sins, and belief that Jesus, the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again on the third day. Other things are quite important to our faith, but not vitally essential for salvation. For this reason, people can be unsure / doubt / even be wrong about their views on evolution / creation, without damaging their salvation.

Now, I do believe it is very important to believe everything that the bible says, but I would not assume that someone is unsaved because they have a different interpretation of the story of creation in the bible to me, or a belief about creation that is incompatable with the bible.

Other christians might disagree with me, but this is just my opinion.

For you... I wonder whether there is an analogous concept of salvation and minimum requirements / beliefs for salvation in Islam?

Forgive me if I am way off topic .

[Maruschke]

If it is pre-determined and planned for us then the choices we are making are not our own are they?
Does it matter what choices we make if the end result is pre-determined?

The debate between free-will and determinism has been raging for thousands of years, and there are many websites devoted to it online. It is a very interesting read!

In summary, yes it is possible for man to have free-will (make decisions of his own free will) and for God to determine what will happen. Lemme know if you want some links. There is a few threads about it in the christian section.

[Nettie]

I'm a Pagan and believe that there is both destiny / fate and randomness occurring at all times.

Not to trivialise, but like Forrest Gump said 'I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time.'

I also believe in evolution as a natural state of progress. The Gods have put the divine breath into every living thing, so any evoltion is purely brought about by the divine.

It's a very hard concept to describe in words, so feel free to question and hopefully I can clarify.

[Phteven]

As christians, there are two vital elements for salvation. Repentence of sins, and belief that Jesus, the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again on the third day. Other things are quite important to our faith, but not vitally essential for salvation. For this reason, people can be unsure / doubt / even be wrong about their views on evolution / creation, without damaging their salvation.

Now, I do believe it is very important to believe everything that the bible says, but I would not assume that someone is unsaved because they have a different interpretation of the story of creation in the bible to me, or a belief about creation that is incompatable with the bible.


For you... I wonder whether there is an analogous concept of salvation and minimum requirements / beliefs for salvation in Islam?

Forgive me if I am way off topic .

We believe that Allah can choose to forgive anything but he will not forgive disbelief. In saying this it doesn't mean that non-Muslims will automatically go to hell. The Quran says quite specifically that there will be non-Muslims who will go to heaven because of their piety and charity and if a person has had no chance to be properly acquainted with the true teachings of Islam then they will not be condemned for that because it is beyond their control.
If you believe something that is wrong and you do so in good faith then it is my understanding that it is ok.

[Maruschke]

Bron, I am amazed at the similarities, I have never really studied it in depth. Thanks for sharing.

The direction I was headed for TD is that... although we might doubt about things like creation, and even other things, we will not loose our salvation while we struggle to work it all out, so long as we keep the faith. (I am saying we, but this is from my perspective.)

In the bible, some of the early followers of Jesus struggled with the concept of communion, and they left in droves. Even the disciples struggled to understand it. Here is what happened (and I love what Simon Peter says)...

John 6 (NIV)
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

I guess what I am saying is that it is ok to search, question, seek, not have full comprehension, when we are safely within our faith.

Personally, I have drifted to and fro in my interpretation of creationism from Genesis. I have done much research into day-age theory, theistic evolution, old earth creationism etc. I will never be certain of exactly how God created. I believe He did create... whether or not He used evolution to do so is another matter! He could have fast-forwarded the evolutionistic process to occur in 6 days, He could have slowed down the days, He could have done it literally as described, He could have set the evolutionary process running and interjected to induce speciation. He is God, He could have done anything. But while I will never be certain (beyond agreeing that the description in Genesis is an honest representation of what He did do) I will be certain of my faith and salvation.

Sorry if I have gone way off topic.

[~Saram~]

What a great thread - I love seeing this dialogue between Christians and Muslims as we share so many of the same scriptures, beliefs and values and it is awesome to see such a great religious debate happening overlapping both faiths.

As for evolution - ditto what has already been said by Brontide and others about evolution beig the scientific explaination of Gods creation and time being irrelevent to God or in a different context to the human understanding of time. Honestly I don't know how anyone can honestly study evolution and not have a deepened faith in regards to the miracle of Gods creation.

pre-determination - I too believe that there is a plan for everyone and that God has seen what is to come (psalm 139:16 "All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be". ) I also feel that each of us has a journey to go on to become who we are meant to be or to effect another one and that in the "big picture" our life or the experiences in our life are just a cascade leading to greater changes in the world. If you consider something that happens in your life that you might struggle with and overcome, share that with another, who shares it with another which gives them the strength to overcome a similar obstacle and then become Prime Minister IYKWIM.

[butterfly_warrior]

Just because God knows what is going to happen and when we are going to die doesn't necessarily mean He plans it for us.

And I think that's about all I can say on the topic of predestination/free will at this point in time (too tired, too sick to communicate clearly). Sometimes it feels like it's a bit of a cop out, but God is just way too big for our puny little human brains to comprehend fully.

BW

[Maruschke]

BW I understand feeling like people use it as a cop-out. I think both free will and determinism can co-exists, without man blaming God (hey God, you determined this, so I'm not going to take responsibility for my decisions ).

Some scriptures come to mind...

Jesus as the "Author"

Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Predestination (election)

Ephesians 13Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will? 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Equally, I could find scripture that says that we must choose... (but X needs a feed and I need to get ready for BB meet-up so I will come back later today).

[Turkish Delight]

If it is pre-determined and planned for us then the choices we are making are not our own are they?
Does it matter what choices we make if the end result is pre-determined?

IMO, i believe that God has given us the tools (the brain) to make the most of what have in life. We can use this life to the bestest and go down God's path or take the worst path and have a real miserable, bad life. Yes, if God has decided that i will die at 63yo, then the way i choose to live that 63 years is in my hands. God will give me tests along the way but will allow me to choose how i handle them. Yes, we all come to crossroads and think "what the hell do i do now, i'm in such a bad rut" but i believe that these are all situations which God has placed us in to test our capabilities.

Princess Xanthe - BW I understand feeling like people use it as a cop-out. I think both free will and determinism can co-exists, without man blaming God (hey God, you determined this, so I'm not going to take responsibility for my decisions

i really think that if people do blame God when things have gone is a real cop out. There have been many times where i've gotten angry at God for some things, but then when i calm down i try and reason with myself as to how i got in that situation and work out some solution. God has really given us the tools to cope and deal with nearly all situations. What He is capable of is truly amazing.

Salvation - Allah is very forgiving. I am a muslim and i believe in the Koran, but there are some things which i often question, which does not mean that i am disbeliever. I guess it is not wrong to find out the answers to the questions which you seek. Now, Bron with her wealthy knowledge at which i am truly amazed at is reaping many, many, many good deeds in her favour as she is teaching me and us about Islam. Sharing her knowledge. I believe this would be the same for Christianity too. In a sense, we are spreading the word of God, whether it be for Christianity or Islam or some other religion who believe in God. There is a Turkish saying that it is not wrong/bad to seek the answers to the questions that you have but it is wrong/bad if you do not seek them IYKWIM.

I too love talking about the different religions and sharing the similarities or disimilarities. I am not very knowledgeable about Islam but know a little. I am also awed at some of you such as Candice, who can quote from the Bible.

i believe that Christianity and Islam have very similar teachings. We both share the same the God. There is A God and that if you choose to follow Jesus or Muhammad (pbuh) it is just a path to God.

Geez. I had another question to ask... but i forgot

if you guys have any Q's please ask. The more the merrier..

[Turkish Delight]

I have another question. Well it's not really a question as such...well it is...

I wonder how Adam and Eve knew about DTD? How did they know that "that" goes "there" ????

And what they thought when Eve's bump appeared and when she went into labour and the baby's cord etc...

[Maruschke]

I have another question. Well it's not really a question as such...well it is...

I wonder how Adam and Eve knew about DTD? How did they know that "that" goes "there" ????

And what they thought when Eve's bump appeared and when she went into labour and the baby's cord etc...

It must have been a bit when a baby came out. And... no episiotomy, no pain relief... no one to help her how to breastfeed or even to know to put the baby to the boob. Perhaps they relied on instinct? I think it is kinda instinctual to know what to do when it comes to DTD .

[Heaven]

I just assume God gave them some kind of instructions about all that.

Genesis 1:

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

I suppose he elaborated a bit, lol. Or maybe just created them with the knowledge seeing as they were created as adults already, not babies iykwim?

[butterfly_warrior]

There's the thing... pain in childbirth didn't come until after the fall. I am unclear as to whether children were born before or after the fall, and can't really check at the moment (wiggle worm on lap and bible in the other room)

BW

[Phteven]

Muslims don't belive that pain in childbirth is punishment for Eve's mistakes. Why would all women be punished for the mistake of one? We also reject the concept of original sin.

[butterfly_warrior]

How does your creation/fall story differ from the Christian one, brontide?

I was going by Genesis 3:16 -

To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

I guess it does say increase pains in childbearing, not that it was completely pain-free before hand!

I'm not entirely convinced that everything in Genesis is completely chronological - just because Cain and Abel aren't mentioned until chapter 4 and the fall happens in chapter 3, I don't think necessarily means they were born after the fall. I vaguely recall reading something about that, but I've got no idea where to start looking for a definitive answer.

BW

[widdly]

im loving this conversation.

I am still learing about the Bible, but so far I believe in Creationism but dont discount evolution. I believe both are probably true its just that we will probably never really know exactly what happened.

I am finding it extremely =interesting to learn that Muslim and Christian are so similar!

One the subject of Adam and Eve knowing what to do DTD, pregnancy, childbirth. I think it would have been instinctual, just like animals, they just know what to do.

I am still reading Genesis atm, interesting to think that Cain and Abel may have been born before the fall...

[Girl-23]

The theory of evolution sounds more logical than being created from mud as per the Koran. I most certainly believe in the power of God/Allah (however you want to read it).

You believe in Evolution and Allah? Or both? Do you believe in one more than the other?

[Girl-23]

I believe in the Holy Quran. The theory of evolution has no support in Islam. Allah the Almighty created, Adam, the first man from scratch. He was not evolved from any other creation of Allah. Allah created humans and animals from the Earth's dust: 'From the (earth) did We Create you, and into it Shall We return you, And from it shall We Bring you out once again (The Noble Quran, 20:55)'. Allah informed the Angel's he was creating a man from mud moulded, breathed soul into him and they all then prostrated before Adam.

Do you believe that God has pre-determined when we will die before/as we are born or do we control as to when we are going to die?

Indeed, Allah is the best planner. Allah plans when we are born and death. However, the will of man does exist. Here is an interesting article I found that explains it perfectly.

Jabr and Qadr in Islam (Free Will vs. Predetermination) - Windows Live

The will of man does exist, and yet the will of Allah is all-encompassing. How do we explain the co-existence of both wills simultaneously? Man's limited free will exists because Allah has allowed it, and it is limited in the sense that man's will is subject to God's. You may 'will' to sprout wings and fly, but good luck buddy. Allah wills for His creations what He wants, and since His supersedes yours, you may never get off the ground.

Or more realistically, you may 'will' to take your car from point A to point B, and you may do everything in your abilities (your abilities also being allowed to you by the will of God) but God willed that someone else should crash into you somewhere in the middle and you never make it to your destination.

There's a difference between your will and God's. You're only judged on what you do, not what happens to you. It's the difference between poking yourself in the eye with a fork deliberately or having a fork fly at you in a freak accident. No one will call you self-destructive in the second case, because it's not like it was your fault or will.