Religion

[Heaven]

I checked this up in the bible and the way I understand it is that you can eat almost anything that you feel is appropriate... if you believe meat is ok then eat it, but if you don't then it would be a sin for you to eat it.

I think I know the bit you're talking about. I understand it as there are lots of ppl who never even get to see the bible, and bc they don't know about it they're not sinning or anything and that's ok. The bible also says somewhere I think that when Jesus comes again everyone will be made to go by the laws. And as Jesus lived by them I think that's what I'm meant to do. Just my opinion anyway.
It's funny how the bible can be interpreted differently by everyone that's why I like hearing everyone's view, I think that's how we learn. Thankyou for everyone who's posting!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

With food, I believe God told St Peter that it was not a sin to eat meant for what God has made Clean, let no man call Unclean (somewhere in Acts... need to read it again!). I also thought that when Jesus comes again he will take His people to a place where the laws aren't needed; everything will begin anew. But will have to check the reference for that one.

After having read DS's Beginner's Bible with him, I'm very upset that things like Passover aren't mentioned until the New Testament - Passover is a Big Thing. I've always enjoyed the "action" parts of the Bible (the laws etc not so much - but then Jesus came to change everything) and reading the histories really makes me appreciate that we don't have to suffer anywhere near as much to follow God - hats off to those who continue in worship in the face of persecution. I think without knowing the Old Testament there's no way to understand the New - and that's why people like Yael are super-great, because without Jews there is a lot in the OT which is very hard to understand.

While we don't follow everything in the Old Testament, there is a lot of sensible stuff in there. The festivals we have for Christianity follow OT tradition, so it's silly to ignore it - in my Church we don't and we are told a lot about Jewish traditions, which is fantastic.

BTW, I love the King James Bible - it actually makes things easier for me. I love the way language has evolved, and as the KJV uses a lot of old words it's easier to see where our words have diverged out and what is really meant - for example, a bondsman is not a servant, but not quite a slave... but we have no word that means "a man who is indebted to a person to such a degree that he enters the service of his household until the debt is repaid" - and that's a simple explaination. Yes, bondsmen were often sold, like slaves, but their selling value was the remainder of the debt and they weren't slaves to those who bought them. It's complicated and the KJV makes it easier for me!

[Bathsheba]

QUOTE: Ryn "in my Church we don't and we are told a lot about Jewish traditions, which is fantastic."

I agree. The priest at my Uniting Church also frequently acknowledges the laws, traditions and contributions of the Jewish people and faith. I'm always very interested.

[Caramello]

Hi Sarah,

Just on food laws -

For Christianity: Seventh Day Adventists (definitely) and (I think) Mormans follow the food laws (no crustaceans, no pork).

Also, the Muslim faith includes food laws (no crustaceans, no pork) and specific methods to prepare meat (ie Halal). I know this because I used to teach at schools that had a high number of Islamic students. However, Dachlostar would probably be a better reference on this than me.

Re: Reading the bible - I loved the section on Proverbs. Just don't do what I did when I was 12 years old and read 'Revelations' in the middle of the night. I got so freaked out when a dog started howling I had to call my Mum!!

[Pandora]

I thought some of the food laws were in the OT, I am sure I read about animals with cloven hooves...hang on, yep its Leviticus

And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Say to the people of Israel, These are the living things which you may eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the swine, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch; they are unclean to you.

My favourite part is the OT, especially the story of Jacob.

[Lulu]

Funny thing - I don't eat pork, and I remember deciding that after watching a jewish kids show on SBS or something. They were singing some song about the foods they eat and I remember thinking eeeew, I'm not gonna eat it either! It was only a couple of years ago....

Easter- Eostre is a pagan fertitlity goddess, and there are rituals/celebrations for rebirth and fertility of the earth. This was merged and became Easter which coincided with the resurrection story of Christ.
If you celebrated Eostre it would be at Spring time.

[Yael]

Rach - i also like the story of Jacob (Yaacov)..

All the laws about kosher animals, fowl, fish etc are found in leviticus.. its basically the book where all the laws are.

Maybe i should put up some photos of some stuff we do... I think we have one of our sukkah around here somewhere (its like a wooden hut, with palm fronds for a roof)... Or its coming up in like 12 weeks anyway, so maybe i'll take some pics then.

[Ellie]

Was just reading through everyone's posts and made me think...how wonderful it is to live in a country where we can openly discuss and question such issues as 'religion' ...I guess that's what's called a 'blessing'!

[Bathsheba]

So true Ellie

I think I'll be cracking open my copy of the Old Testament tonight before bed girls.... nighty nite

[Jennifer13]

This is a very interesting thread, and good on everyone for treating it with respect and not a chance to have a go at others' beliefs (but I knew we were all good at that on BB)!

I was brought up a Christian, but not in a mainstream church. We didn't celebrate the 'pagan' Christian festivals, but still commemorated Christ's death, for eg. My parents were JWs.

I've now ditched a lot of the practices I grew up with (I've since become an Anglican, I guess I wanted to be well and truly mainstream!), but the information and knowledge I picked up during my childhood stays with me.

DP grew up in household full of atheists (they still are and can't believe we got our daughter christened and DP comes to church with me regularly - I love getting up my MILs nose!). So he has no idea about anything related to any religion beyond what's hung around the shopping centres! We've had some great discussions with our minister that have taught him a lot (and reminded me of a fair few things as well).

My conclusion is, since Jewish people don't incorporate the New Testament they follow the traditions of the Old Testament. Christians, however, believe that once Jesus came, he fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament, meaning it was no longer necessary to follow all of the instructions with relation to sacrifices, sabbath, etc (it's a lot more complicated than that, but you get the idea). The principles of the Old Testament are still held as relevant, but most are carried over to Christ's teachings anyway. So they only commemorate the important events that occurred in the New Testament that related to Jesus' life (even though they've now got the dates all topsy-turvy and were never actually directed to do so by Jesus. They just were trying to convert the pagans and didn't want to take their public holidays away from them. Fair enough, something we should definitely understand!).

No other religions use the Bible as their basis for beliefs, although there are a lot of similarities in the teachings between religions in my opinion.

As to why different Christian religions celebrate things at different times, I'd have to get my minister over here! He explained to us what happened when the Catholic church split into the different factions that became a lot of the now distinct Christian religions, many centuries ago. A lot of their practices and beliefs are based on when and why they split off from the main church. That's the best I can do at this time of the night!

I think even if you don't profess a particular belief, since so much of our society is run on these premises it is definitely worth looking into, even if only for educational purposes. And I think it should be taught in schools, but not just our religion!

PS I'm sorry if I repeated stuff some of you have said already, I think I missed a page when I was reading!!

[Astrid]

One thing I've always wondered... if the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus took place at passover, and both are based on the lunar calendar - why are they not at the same time? And again, why do orthodox christians celebrate easter at a different time to the rest of us?

BW

I have a great little book called "Calendar" by David Ewing Duncan, it explains the history of the Calendar, how it developed etc and it does have an explanation about the differing dates of Easter. It has been awhile since I read it, but it had something to do with the change from the Julian (?) to the Gregorian calendar. I think Orthodox Christians chose not to follow the new calendar

Basically the need to follow religious celebrations fuelled the refinement and changes to the calendar over the centuries.

[Lea13]

I have to say that I am LOVING this thread. I love the respect and sharing of information in what can be a very sensitive topic. I find all of it so fascinating and interesting and I admire everyone's knowledge in this area. I was christened but not raised in a 'religious' environment. I've always classified religion as something I didn't need or wasn't interested in. I think now I might try and get my hands on a bible and expand my horizons a tad. Thanks girls

[Jennifer13]

I have a great little book called "Calendar" by David Ewing Duncan, it explains the history of the Calendar, how it developed etc and it does have an explanation about the differing dates of Easter. It has been awhile since I read it, but it had something to do with the change from the Julian (?) to the Gregorian calendar. I think Orthodox Christians chose not to follow the new calendar

I'm going to write this down. I wonder if our minister has it? It'd be the kind of thing he would have if he knew about it. Thanks Astrid!

[Astrid]

It is actually a very good book for understanding the history of Christianity. I am just a bit of a history buff, that is why I have it.

[Ellie]

If anyone's looking for an 'easy to read' New Testament...I was given a book called 'The Message' which is a 'contempory' New Testament...very easy to read and make sense of. I agree that this thread has been so respectful and sensitive to each others beliefs

[butterfly_warrior]

In our bible study, everyone has a different version of the bible, nearly. We often get a bit of a giggle about some of the phrases in The Message, but it certainly does give an easy to understand sense of what's going on. It's certainly not to everyone's taste, though.

I use a New Living Translation - simple, easy language, but without going what sometimes feels a step too far with The Message. I think all the translations have their place though, and we often have a lot of discussion about the differences in each.

BW

[paradise lost]

Wow, what a GREAT thread! I was both absorbed reading and anxious to get to the end so i could join in. LOL.

I did a degree in Celtic Civilisation which included a lot of studies of both pre-Christian and Christian Europe. Before the (Roman) Christians came to Western Europe and Britain most peoples were pagan. They worshipped the seasons, the major astral bodies (sun, moon) and the cycles of nature. The eqinoxes were the major festival times and many ancient monuments have special connections with these (for instance on mainland Orkney there is a Viking burial called maes howe, on winter solstice, the shortest day, the sun sets in line with the entrance, lighting up the inside of the mound, to lead the dead, in the season of death, east into the light).

When the Romans came they didn't take over with hostility, they brought new technology, new methods of living and farming, and a new religion. In order that the people could understand the Christian festivals more easily the Roman monks introduced the festivals as overlays of the pre-existing pagan calendar. The reason Easter is not celebrated on the same day everywhere is, as was said above, because of the move to the new gregorian calendar. Before this move Easter was calculated exactly, by the stars, to the day of the year which was the original day of resurrection (which began as passover). This was done in Rome and calendars of 60-80 year cycles were sent out throughout the Empire to allow clerics to celebrate on the correct day. However, the empire grew large and Rome became concerned that some were receieving incorrect information and the Church was degrading and felt that Easter should be celebrated on a Sunday, so the answer was to fix a day on the new calendar the first Sunday after the first full moon folowing the Spring Equinox - which is when most of the Christian world now celebrates Easter, which was done around 325AD i think. The Celtic church didn't catch up for some time! In the late 660's AD a meeting known as the Synod of Whitby took place and the date of Easter was discussed. It was there decided to move to the new fixed date and one of the defenders of the old calendar was so disgusted he took himself to an island off the west coast of Ireland and lived out his days with his back, literally, to the celtic christian world.

As an aside it might interest some to know that it has been estimated that only around one sixth of the writings of the New Testament is in print. Many many parts have been reomoved from the original work for political or social (or editing - some of it is poorly written in the extreme apparently!) easons and is all kept safely in the vatican. So many things which we feel are absent in the new Testament could well have been in there at some point. For instance on of the reasons the Gospels don't quite tally regarding the birth and early life of Jesus is because, in the original work, TWO jesus's were born! This is a strange story now and please know i am in no way questioning belief, this is what i have read and heard and there is some evidence, which i will get to i promise!

The story goes that 2 Jesus's were born, both to young virgins called Mary, in the same year and circumstances. The earthy or human side of Christ, as he would become, was visited at birth by 3 shepherds. The kingly or divine side of Christ as he would become, was visited by 3 kings. The boys grew in tandem, living their lives as told by each of the gospels. Age 12 BOTH Jesus's entered the temple to preach. Only one boy (now a man, having begun his career as a teacher and prophet) came out. It's unclear as to whether one disappeared or the two sides combined. Jesus went on, as one can read, to teach and in his 30's he was baptised by John and became Christ. It was then (it is said) that the power of God was brought into being within him. I don't know how true this version of Christ's background is, but i DO know that several of the old Renaissance masterpieces are seen to depict Christ and John the Baptist playing together as babies, sometimes with their mothers, sometimes alone. When x-rayed these pieces of art have revealed that the iconic furs and long-cross of John, from which we identify him were painted on AFTER the piece was "finished" (with a substance they painted on to protect the paint), in some cases, they estimate, a long time (decades or more) afterwards. This is also why one baby is often very robust looking and the other more graceful - the earthly or human and divine or higher natures revealed in physical type, visually. So whether or not it is true it appears that this story was accepted at some point in the past as the true story. One of the main problems now is that the Reformation led to the destruction of such alot of the old works that the evidence is scant.

I am fascinated by religion, belief and culture. It is such a powerful part of people's lives. I too worry about the current trend for rubbishing belief but i think it is because of this - we live in a world of excess (the western world that is, poorer countries are as devoted as ever), the response to excess is nihilism, the rejection and destruction of all because we're overwhelmed by what we have. So we destroy what there is without seeking to replace it. It is tragic and i think some of humanity is becoming lost, so it is very inspiring to read so many of us have faiths we are fulfilled by.

It seems even animals display religious tendencies - chimpanzees have been noted to do a loosely choreographed sort of display or dance when it begins to rain in the dryer areas, often BEFORE they even drink, AND, more interestingly, sometimes they do this "dance" when it is very dry and they anicipate rain. This is obviously not the same sort of thing as organised worship, but it does display some abstract awareness of events in nature beyond acceptance of fact (which i suppose would be making no comment either way, whatever the weather did) and perhaps even a sense of their place within such events?

I am not part of a defined religion. I believe everyone has the right to their own faith which should not be attacked or questioned. I do not condone extremism from ANY party, and i do not believe my beliefs should be pushed on anyone.

I guess i am like you Bath, whenever i have prayed, in times of crisis or need, i never ask for somethng not to happen, i only ask for the strength to bear whatever it is. So far i have never been denied.

Again, what a WONDERFUL opportunity to talk to you all about this. Thankyou.

Bec

[Astrid]

I did a degree in Celtic Civilisation which included a lot of studies of both pre-Christian and Christian Europe.

Bec

Getting of topic, but I am so jealous now. Very interesting post - thank you Bec