Is that the one that was on tv recently? there was a series on ABC or SBS?
MIL kept telling me I should watch it.
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Has anyone else noticed the proliferation of anit-religion/anti-god books around lately? EG: The God Delusion? I think it's a real concern. I guess I'm all for free speech... but I hope people can continue seeing the bigger picture and acknowledge that if it wasn't for religion we would all be still living life according to the laws of the jungle. Animals don't embrace concepts such as compassion... ideas such as basic human decency (that everyone agrees is a good thing I think) are not man made (ie of nature) they had to come from somewhere... are the authors of anti-relgion books saying that because some terrible things have been done in the name of religion that we should abandon the whole concept? i just don't get it.
ETA: sorry I'm a bit off topic as most discussion is centred around celebrations... you can see i've been mulling over these issues for ages and bursting at the seams for a chance to post about it! LOL Thanks again Sarajane for opening up the thread
Last edited by Bathsheba; July 11th, 2007 at 02:07 PM.
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Is that the one that was on tv recently? there was a series on ABC or SBS?
MIL kept telling me I should watch it.
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SaraJane Jesus also introduced a new celebration which is now known in christian communities as "communion" or "the Lord's Supper". It's basically because when Jesus shared the Passover meal with his disciples for the last time (the night he was arrested), he told them he would be seized and killed and they should break bread together and drink red wine to remember his death and celebrate his resurrection until he comes again. So that's why most (if not all) christian churches incorporate this into their celebrations.
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Bath, I know, I don't like it either! I think it's scary, coz they don't just say their beliefs either, they're pretty vicious about it I think.
Misty- Yes I know about holy communion, and have also been reading about that and whether it's meant to be taken at every service, how often, etc. People are a bit divided. I know the catholic church has it a lot (not catholic so don't know much about it). But then it has also been argued that it's only meant for once a year at passover time, which I am becoming more and more inclined to believe as I continue learning. It's really quite interesting and there's lots of info out there in this stuff.
There is also info about this (festivals, lords supper, sabbath, etc) on the united church of god australia website. They've got some really useful stuff (not a part of that denomination so not trying to get u into it, lol, just found some useful articles on there).
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Niass, really? I didn't know many actually did. Well I don't think around where I live they do?? Or maybe they just don't have websites, lol, coz I've been searching around wondering why ppl don't do this bc it makes sense to me! I would like to find people who did, so I can too and learn how to celebrate with others as I am new to this. Although I would be a bit shy about going so don't know if I would.
Also, I am from an Anglican background and went to an anglican school and didn't celebrate any of the festivals.
Thanks for that, and nope not trying to evangelise anyone, lol. Just curious.
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Ok, in Jewish tradition this just doesn't work. We believe at Mt Sinai, G-d gave 2 things to Moses. The written bible (what you call 'old testament') and the oral tradition. They are both considered devine. The oral tradition was handed down from generation to generation, until a point in history where they felt it might not get passed on exactly, and was written down (in the form of the Jewish Mishnah, which got expanded to the Gemara). Basically the bible is more like the cliff notes, and the oral tradition explains it. So when it says 'do no work'... you look it up in the oral tradition you will see exactly what G-D intended to mean by that. If you spend time studying the bible (especially in original Hebrew), you will find that it is basically impossible to read and understand without the Oral tradition. In traiditonal Judiasm, you can't really have one without the other, eveything we believe and practise is from both...The bible just says rest and do no work so I guess its up to the individual to decide what that means for them whereas you have it all written down I think????
From the oral tradition (and the bible), it is where our 613 commandments come from, which dictate all the things we do and how we kive our life (dietry laws etc).
Also, if you read translations of the bible, not only are there so many errors in there (i.e. Red sea was originally Reed Sea, but in the 16th cent somebody dropped an 'e' when printing... Virgin as in Virgin Mary is actually the Hebrew word for 'young maiden'...), so if you do read a translation, you are really absorbing somebody's spin on it all. Bu the best one going with Hebrew and English is called "the Living Torah, by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan". It basically has the most accurate translations of words.
Oh, and i looked it up.
1) festival of trumpets, is Jewish New Year... There we blow Ram's Horns (if you google Rosh HaShana you will come up with pics of what i mean).. I've normally heard it referred to as festival of blowing, thats why i didn't automatically make the connection.
2) The last great day is actually Shemini Atzeres, which is celebrated basically joined onto the festival of Tabernacles (Fest of tabernacles goes for 6 days, and Shemini Atzeres starts that night, so we have no break basically). You don't eat in booths (we call these sukkah's, we build one outside once a year, and we eat (DH sleeps in it also), basically do most stuff in it. For Shemini Atzeres (most people just refer to it all as sukkos, as they run for 8 days consecutively), you don't have to do that, but you still have all the restrictions like sabbath on us.
3) I got the passover thing wrong. Basically what is refered to as The festival of Passover isn't celebrated anymore (we only do that when we have a temple.. long story), and what we celebrate for 8 days is actually the festival of unleaved bread. To make it more difficult, the festival of unleavened bread is called Passover (Pesach), even though it isn't really.
Hope i didn't confuse to many people.. its hard to explain when typing!
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This is what I meant, you just said it better, lol. When I saidOk, in Jewish tradition this just doesn't work. We believe at Mt Sinai, G-d gave 2 things to Moses. The written bible (what you call 'old testament') and the oral tradition. They are both considered devine. The oral tradition was handed down from generation to generation, until a point in history where they felt it might not get passed on exactly, and was written down (in the form of the Jewish Mishnah, which got expanded to the Gemara). Basically the bible is more like the cliff notes, and the oral tradition explains it. So when it says 'do no work'... you look it up in the oral tradition you will see exactly what G-D intended to mean by that. If you spend time studying the bible (especially in original Hebrew), you will find that it is basically impossible to read and understand without the Oral tradition. In traiditonal Judiasm, you can't really have one without the other, eveything we believe and practise is from both...
I meant for christians. Coz we just use the bible and don't have the oral tradition as you do I think that different christians do it differently, like some may be more or less strict whereas for you it is clearly stated in the oral tradition so you know what is and what isn't allowed.The bible just says rest and do no work so I guess its up to the individual to decide what that means for them whereas you have it all written down I think????
Thankyou for all the information!!! You really know your stuff!! I think it's really interesting.
With Passover for Christians we have the passover meal (the same way jesus did with the footwashing, and last supper instead of lamb) and then the feast of unleavened bread. I really find the similarities and differences interesting to learn about so thankyou for all the info!
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Thanks Niass!
Yeah I was sceptical about stuff too hence all the researching, lol, want to find out what I believe for myself from reading rather than having a priest, parents, etc tell me iykwim.
Have only just started to celebrate these festivals this year so don't really know much yet!! But its fun so far, and feels more meaningful to me so I take that as I'm on the right path! lol.
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I think I come from a different angle... I don't know much about "organised' Christianity eg traditions and festivals etc... and I don't think it would mean much to me until I kinda knew why they are celebrated... and learning "why" is taking me a looooong time. Anyhow I guess I'd like to know the "bare bones" of what it means to believe in God.... or as C.S Lewis puts it: what it means to be a "mere" Christian. I consider celebrations to be of secondary importance... I don't need to "have fun" swap gifts and eat special foods to have faith, I don't need to be 'lured' into it that way... but that's just me
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Bath, I totally understand.
ikwym. I felt that way too. As I said I have started to only celebrate the festivals this year. But so far I have found they are not about presents, food, etc and more about spirituality and god. So I feel like they have more meaning to me than giving ppl chocolate eggs and santa bringing presents, which doesn't really seem to relate. So I'm really glad I started looking into it while reading the bible, it's been good to learn about it.I don't need to "have fun" swap gifts and eat special foods to have faith, I don't need to be 'lured' into it that way
I agree, it takes so long to learn about it, it can be so complicated, I feel like there is still so much for me to learn and I won't ever have enough time, lol.
I think I found some good stuff about what it means to be a christian somewhere in my travels if I can find something, I'll send u the link if you want??
Although I do believe the best way is just to read the bible, after all it has everything you need to know about it so you prob don't need someone else's view off the internet. Lol, I say this even tho I read heaps of stuff on the internet.
Last edited by Heaven; July 11th, 2007 at 03:20 PM.
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Yes, the concept of Lent seems to be a good one... it really balances the ever increasing trend of our Western society to have everything now. It's something that few people seem to value: "going without"... we all seem to prefer cheering people on to getting the things they want a.s.a.p... we rarely congratulate anyone for waiting do we?
SJ: I doubt there would be much to be found online that would interest me as I prefer a very plain no-frills version of faith. Like Niass I have a fair degree of scepticism still and I really struggle with the Hard Sell of organised religion. I own a lot of good books that I'd like to find the time to re-read... at this time of my life I think I just need to keep it simple... observe and learn from people I admire and apply what I beleive in to my daily existance. ATM I am finding that my children are teaching me so much about humility and patience (for example). I just need to be able to work through applying what I already know to my life... once I can do that more easily I'll continue on to read more about the history of Christianity etc. Thanks for the offer though
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Also interested to know if anyone has heard of the food laws in the bible and if anyone else abides by them? I read about them in the bible and then looked up on the internet why God may have made them. Omg, if you like your bacon don't look it up, lol. There were actually some scientific reasons why you shouldn't eat the 'unclean' animals. Anyway, turned me off for good!!!! I also think it's pretty amazing that God gave these laws to the Israelites before science or anything had even discovered why you shouldn't eat any of these things. They would have been wondering what he was on about I bet. But now studies have actually shown benefits for actually living by them. Anyway, just wondering what you thought.
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I agree. Kinda like the feast of unleavened bread. For 7 days you don't have any leaven in your home, kinda symbolises leaving sin out of your life and not having something you normally have, and you realise how hard it is to go without!! Especially when it's around the time of easter and your Nan makes lots of yummy treats you can't have!!! lolit really balances the ever increasing trend of our Western society to have everything now. It's something that few people seem to value: "going without"... we all seem to prefer cheering people on to getting the things they want a.s.a.p... we rarely congratulate anyone for waiting do we?
True, I just had a look anyway, and can't find anything that fits in.I doubt there would be much to be found online that would interest me as I prefer a very plain no-frills version of faith.
It's great how your kids are teaching you so much, lots of ppl say that, they are facinating little things!
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We keep all the dietry laws (no meat and milk together, so we have 2 sets of dishes for everything (and another whole 2 sets for passover), 2 dishwashers.. we wait 6 hours after eating meat products before we have milk), so unkosher animals (no pork, shellfish, bugs on veggies etc)
Um, everything we eat is under rabinical supervision to ensure it is kosher (and its labelled if it has a meat or milk derivative on it)... basically every single food we eat has this, except fresh veggies (which are washed an checked thoroughly -every lettuce leaf etc- for bugs). Our milk, pasta, bread etc is supervised (has a stamp on the packet etc)
The food laws are more complex than this, but this is the basics.
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I won't even begin to explain how we keep passover..
We start about 4 weeks before the festival cleaning every single inch of the house so there are no crumbs (think kids toys, pockets, everything), we pack away all our dishes and bring out new ones.. Um, we use up all our food which has leavened products in it (just about everything, i kid you not), re-kosher the kitchen, cover ever surface etc etc.
Bath - our festivals aren't really liek the Christian ones in terms of presents/foods. When we say festivals it means there are restrictions like the sabbath on us, we spend most of the day in synagoge, none of them involve presents (although on one of them you give presents to others and poor people)... They are to do with you and G-D, all about prayer and developing your relationship. We do have a festival meal, but its not like an all out thing.
Our holiest day is Yom Kippur (day of atonement), where you fast for 25 hours, not bath etc, pray basically the whole day (there is a break for maybe 1.5hrs during the day..) it's all about removing yourself from the physical.
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I checked this up in the bible and the way I understand it is that you can eat almost anything that you feel is appropriate... if you believe meat is ok then eat it, but if you don't then it would be a sin for you to eat it.
I never thought about what I ate as a child until I was made to help out during the slaughter of some sheep on our farm. I watched a ewe die after her neck was slit when I was about 13yo and at that point I felt that to eat mammals was wrong. I was able to watch chickens being beheaded and I helped pluck them and it didn't worry me.... just the death of a mammal. I was "made" to eat mammals until the day i left home at 17. I haven't eaten a mammal since. I have been tempted on very cold days at the footy though mind you! (to eat a hot pie) but I feel that it would be a sin for me personally to do this. I also feel ok about eating fish... i can fish and scale them etc no worries. Given that pigs are mammals then I also would never eat them either. However I have worked in commercial kitchen and i have absolutely no problem cooking and serving meat for others... *shrug* this is all intuitive.
ETA: Thanks so much for taking the time to explain your faith to us Yael!
Last edited by Bathsheba; July 11th, 2007 at 03:53 PM.
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Yeah, I don't do the milk and meat thing, I think that's just Jewish??? Am I right??
Basically do just what's written in the Bible:
No pork, bugs (lol, not that I'd want to), shellfish, no blood or fat, etc etc.
But it's actually interesting what the research says regarding this, esp pork.
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Yael, your passover is definately more complicated, lol. And there's probably much more to it than you've even said!!
But I agree with you the festivals you celebrate (which some christians do to including myself now) are about God rather than presents etc. I think it makes it more meaningful and special from my limited experience so far. Although there are a lot of restrictions etc you feel a sense of accomplishment and I think it's pretty special. Anyway just my opinion, I've enjoyed my experience so far.
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