and i think there is a need to be firm as well especially at the 4 yr old mark....as my kids are all great sleepers once they get to sleep.... sometimes it is the old fashioned 'im going to be naughty as i know it is nighttime etc etc' and it is hard work but im talking 8 30pm and i have been trying since 7 30pm.... and oh routine is get home from daycare/kinder play/tv dinner bath and bed with the toilet cuddles love you's and then there both out for the count BUT when the 4 yr old wants to play up he plays up and thats when the 'control crying/whinging/ grizzling' comes into play at my house !