Controlled Crying is bad, mmkay?

[Doing my best]

Mind you I think my SIL encouraged bad sleep, because whenever her children would whimper she would tend to them. Hence waking them further, resulting in overtired children. Plus she would totally ignore tired cues. It's not about CIO, but it is about understanding your babies cries and cues. And this can go a long way in helping.

I think I did this with my DD.. I knew I didn't want her to cry, but I mistook every grunt/movement that she was awake and needed settling and in effect I was actually waking her.. And when I realised I felt like I had created her 'bad' sleep. But I also know, chances are I talked myself into feeling that way..

With DS, he didn't like being cuddled to sleep. I worked this out when I needed a toilet break while he was screaming, and put him in the bassinette. By the end of the toilet break he was asleep, so the next time he didn't go to sleep while feeding, and was not settling with a cuddle, I tried again, and it worked. I had learned different cries by then, and while he often cried when put into bed, they were a grizzle (more a protest) rather than a distress.. He would get more worked up if I picked him up. So learning the cries was a huge help 2nd time round..

[Jellyfish]

I personally don't get into whether something is inherently 'good' or 'bad' or even look to results to try and distinguish because it is circumstantial to an extent. I simply ask myself; 'would I want to be treated in this way?' and 'how do I feel treating my child this way?'. If I can answer 'yes' and 'comfortable' then I'm reassured I'm heading in the right direction no matter the outcome. If I had to answer 'no' and 'uncomfortable' then I would be taking a big risk and definitely needing the outcome to reassure me I was heading in the right direction. Basically, I'd want to have a 110% guarantee on the results if I'm so unsure about the process but when you're comfortable with the process then the results matter a lot less.

I'm heading into my fourth year of broken sleep (2 kids) but it has never really bothered me, even at the worst points I wouldn't have wanted to do anything differently - in the end, it took almost 3yrs for DD1 to start sleeping through (and another 6mo till she stopped feeding to sleep which only stopped when she decided to wean) but I have never considered her a 'bad' sleeper, I think it is an odd concept actually to label things like that - sure, she woke frequently for a lot longer than people seemed to suggest was reasonable but was easy to settle for the most part and never fought sleep, she wasn't cranky or unhappy and neither was I - I never did anything to move past waking in the night or feeding to sleep, it just happened with time, for us. DD2 is now 15mo and their age gap means I went from one straight into the other - doing the exact same things this time around (feeding to sleep, co-sleeping...) but she wakes much less frequently. Looking at DD1 now (4yrs next weekend), my ideals are reinforced - she goes to bed each night without a fuss, she has never said no to bedtime, never tried to leave her bedroom whilst settling to sleep (we do teeth, wee, book then goodnight, sleep tight and walk out), she takes herself to the toilet at night if needed, maybe once every month or so will wake and ask for a drink but she just seems to have a really positive sleep relationship.

Maybe it is a coincidence but since the process was comfortable for both of us then that doesn't matter - if I'd CCd and gotten results then I'm not sure it would have even strengthened my opinion of it because what if that was a coincidence? How do you ever know? And I wasn't comfortable during it then... yeah, how do I reconcile that sort of thing. It has been a life adjustment for me to stop focusing on results but to consider the process but one that has made me feel so much freer and happier and sure in my choices - you just can't guarantee results in so many things so the only certainty you have is going through the process. Hard to explain but makes sense to me.

I do agree that some of it can be baby's personality (strengths, weaknesses, likes, dislikes and such) but also the parents. Two of my strengths are definitely patience and stamina so this is something that really plays to my strengths. Who knows where I would be if I wasn't coping? That is why it is circumstantial - depending on your strengths it can be a lot easier, if you don't have to return to work urgently that can help and if you have outside support (eg a partner who enables a sleep in) then that increases your chances of coping again. There is just so many things that go into a decision you can't look at it in a vacuum.

So my advice (when asked lol) is never really specifically 'do this to get that' but yeah, the old 'do what you are comfortable with' - take the results out of it. If you're parenting towards a result then it will be so much more stressful because of the pressure that places on both of you, the expectation and really, you cannot control another person so a lot of it is out of our hands; you can inspire, guide, hope but in the end, you can't guarantee anything (talking beyond sleep issues here).

[~Gee_Whizzy~]

I think I did this with my DD.. I knew I didn't want her to cry, but I mistook every grunt/movement that she was awake and needed settling and in effect I was actually waking her.. And when I realised I felt like I had created her 'bad' sleep. But I also know, chances are I talked myself into feeling that way..

With DS, he didn't like being cuddled to sleep. I worked this out when I needed a toilet break while he was screaming, and put him in the bassinette. By the end of the toilet break he was asleep, so the next time he didn't go to sleep while feeding, and was not settling with a cuddle, I tried again, and it worked. I had learned different cries by then, and while he often cried when put into bed, they were a grizzle (more a protest) rather than a distress.. He would get more worked up if I picked him up. So learning the cries was a huge help 2nd time round..

This is what I learned with DD2, who was a reflux baby, which lead me to believe she needed to be upright with me all the time! Turned out she was happy to have the bassinette mattress elevated and not be attached to me.

DD1 (4) is still my "dodgy" sleeper. DH has to sit with her for min 15 mins each night - I stopped doing it when DD2 was born, as it really was just too much and in the end it came down to my sanity being just as important as the needs of DD1 being met - hence why DH took over. I feel with her, that being a first time Mum, I was overtly conscious of every squeak, grunt and peep out of her...hence why *I* feel she "learned" (for want of a better phrase) that to get my attention she just had to make some sort of noise. I've read so many times (in general, that is) that babes are very smart and we don't give them enough credit. However, it seems to be, that when it comes to sleeping/settling/CC etc, it's more about them just needing to be held/rocked/patted etc to sleep, not being incredibly smart and "knowing" what to do to get their desired outcome? Or does that only apply when they are older, and there are actual thought processes in place? I will add, that I'm not being facetious or "flamey", just genuinely interested in that idea?

[onthefly]

Grizzling or whatever when settling to sleep is not crying, though, and allowing your baby space to go through this process, is not CC or CIO. Crying means they're upset, distressed, angry, scared, tired, hungry, or whatever, and need help to soothe themselves. That is what it means to me, anyway.
My DS never did this. He was upset. If he cried, he needed me. My DD did, and yes it took a bit of time to realise this, but we did figure it out. I have a few issues with the warning not to attend to every sound because you might be teaching your child to seek you out (my mum banged on about this when I had DS!). The first is the presumption that the mother can't figure out what her child needs with a bit of time and trial and error. Second is the implication that an attentive mother will create a 'problem' sleeper. Third is the idea that it is a bad thing if your child figures out how to communicate their needs effectively to you. This is a good thing, no?

[Mum2twoBoys]

I think the thing I tried to tell myself was that yes they didn't have cognition like an adult. Therefore they weren't calling out purely to annoy you or to get something (ie spoiling). Merely that they have a need that they are unable to meet by themselves. And this is where being a parent comes into play.

I know not really about CIO, but it is about understanding your child isn't trying to get anything they desire. But what they need. Big difference.

Eta I never meant by my comment that attending to your child's every whimper, causes them to be reliant on you. More that you might interupt their way to settle themselves into sleep. If that makes sense.

[onthefly]

Yeah, maybe, I don't really know. I think that unfortunately a lot of mums just end up feeling like they must have done something wrong since their baby doesn't do the right thing. It's hard not to feel that way when people say things like: Oh, you just do x and then they sleep. (I'm just talking generally here)
An alternative interpretation is that previously the baby was not very good at getting their message across, but the mum teaches them by responding and then they get better at communicating their needs.

Ultimately we can never actually know how things might have been if we did things differently.

[trishalishous]

I personally don't get into whether something is inherently 'good' or 'bad' or even look to results to try and distinguish because it is circumstantial to an extent. I simply ask myself; 'would I want to be treated in this way?' and 'how do I feel treating my child this way?'. If I can answer 'yes' and 'comfortable' then I'm reassured I'm heading in the right direction no matter the outcome. If I had to answer 'no' and 'uncomfortable' then I would be taking a big risk and definitely needing the outcome to reassure me I was heading in the right direction. Basically, I'd want to have a 110% guarantee on the results if I'm so unsure about the process but when you're comfortable with the process then the results matter a lot less.

I'm heading into my fourth year of broken sleep (2 kids) but it has never really bothered me, even at the worst points I wouldn't have wanted to do anything differently - in the end, it took almost 3yrs for DD1 to start sleeping through (and another 6mo till she stopped feeding to sleep which only stopped when she decided to wean) but I have never considered her a 'bad' sleeper, I think it is an odd concept actually to label things like that - sure, she woke frequently for a lot longer than people seemed to suggest was reasonable but was easy to settle for the most part and never fought sleep, she wasn't cranky or unhappy and neither was I - I never did anything to move past waking in the night or feeding to sleep, it just happened with time, for us. DD2 is now 15mo and their age gap means I went from one straight into the other - doing the exact same things this time around (feeding to sleep, co-sleeping...) but she wakes much less frequently. Looking at DD1 now (4yrs next weekend), my ideals are reinforced - she goes to bed each night without a fuss, she has never said no to bedtime, never tried to leave her bedroom whilst settling to sleep (we do teeth, wee, book then goodnight, sleep tight and walk out), she takes herself to the toilet at night if needed, maybe once every month or so will wake and ask for a drink but she just seems to have a really positive sleep relationship.

Maybe it is a coincidence but since the process was comfortable for both of us then that doesn't matter - if I'd CCd and gotten results then I'm not sure it would have even strengthened my opinion of it because what if that was a coincidence? How do you ever know? And I wasn't comfortable during it then... yeah, how do I reconcile that sort of thing. It has been a life adjustment for me to stop focusing on results but to consider the process but one that has made me feel so much freer and happier and sure in my choices - you just can't guarantee results in so many things so the only certainty you have is going through the process. Hard to explain but makes sense to me.

I do agree that some of it can be baby's personality (strengths, weaknesses, likes, dislikes and such) but also the parents. Two of my strengths are definitely patience and stamina so this is something that really plays to my strengths. Who knows where I would be if I wasn't coping? That is why it is circumstantial - depending on your strengths it can be a lot easier, if you don't have to return to work urgently that can help and if you have outside support (eg a partner who enables a sleep in) then that increases your chances of coping again. There is just so many things that go into a decision you can't look at it in a vacuum.

So my advice (when asked lol) is never really specifically 'do this to get that' but yeah, the old 'do what you are comfortable with' - take the results out of it. If you're parenting towards a result then it will be so much more stressful because of the pressure that places on both of you, the expectation and really, you cannot control another person so a lot of it is out of our hands; you can inspire, guide, hope but in the end, you can't guarantee anything (talking beyond sleep issues here).

so true. This is what I try to do as well

[~Gee_Whizzy~]

With DD1 i was extremly attentive, some may say overly so, depending where your ethos lies. It is only with the benefit of hindsight and another (very different )child, that i can look back, objectively so, at things i *may* have done differently with her. Do i regret anything I did do? Absolutely not. I did what i'd read was "right" not necessarily what was instinctive to me, itms.

I also never said that a Mum should ignore or not attend to their child, but for *my own* experience I do wonder if i'd let DD1 attempt to 'self settle' (in particular her grizzly/prostest whinge NOT full blown crying)would it have made difference? It's something i'll never know so figure it's not really worth worrying about 'what if'

[HotI]

I personally don't get into whether something is inherently 'good' or 'bad' or even look to results to try and distinguish because it is circumstantial to an extent. I simply ask myself; 'would I want to be treated in this way?' and 'how do I feel treating my child this way?'. If I can answer 'yes' and 'comfortable' then I'm reassured I'm heading in the right direction no matter the outcome. If I had to answer 'no' and 'uncomfortable' then I would be taking a big risk and definitely needing the outcome to reassure me I was heading in the right direction. Basically, I'd want to have a 110% guarantee on the results if I'm so unsure about the process but when you're comfortable with the process then the results matter a lot less.

This is largely how i have looked at it so far. I wouldn't like to cry myself to sleep so why would i do that to my child. I have friends whose kids get put to bed awake and they cry alone and then go to sleep, and this is really hard for me to listen to and i don't think i could do that to my own kids every single day, but that is what works for them. i have never really gone into what techniques theyy are using with them. its kinda agree to disagree thing.

However, i also do things to my kids that they are not happy with, because i know it is necessary to do for now or the future. DD doesn't like wearing her seatbelt. I have to make sure she does. Some days i have to physically restrain her to put it on. I don't like doing it, i she doesn't like me doing it but soon after we have made up and are singing the wheels on the bus again. I explain about the things we have to do to keep safe, and she is getting it but some days she still doesn't want to wear her belt. I have never had an accident with her in the car, having her unrestrained or with her arms out for a short period is probably not

I'm not to justify CC. I have never used it, and the time has passed when it would be effective anyway. I just wonder whether it is one of the things that a shortterm intervention (if it helps) would have had benefits in some areas that outweighed the negatives of having a family sleep deprived for years.

sure, she woke frequently for a lot longer than people seemed to suggest was reasonable but was easy to settle for the most part and never fought sleep, she wasn't cranky or unhappy and neither was I - I never did anything to move past waking in the night or feeding to sleep, it just happened with time, for us.

i think my kids have a lesser requirement for sleep, but they also fight it. Time has been the biggest factor here for DD too, and when i am struggling with DS i hold on to that. I know he will get there, i just hope that i can survive in the meantime.