Controlled Crying is bad, mmkay?

[Artechim]

I have often wondered how different life would be if I had just drawn a line in the sand at say 6-8 months and did a CIO routine. I have spent the last 5 years sleep deprived and it has nearly cost me my marriage and has made life just suck at times. In 2012 I think I got 3 hours of straight sleep about 5 or 6 times. It is no way to live.

Current thinking on brain development suggests that if a child is constantly neglected during the first three years when the brain is most rapidly developing, it will alter brain chemistry. However, crying for say 5 nights out of the first three years is a very small proportion of their needs not being met and while not nice to think of them lying there screaming it is highly unlikely to have an ongoing effect in their development.

It is all good to speculate how bad CC is when you have a good or even a bad sleeper. But when you have an absolutely horrid sleeper that wakes every hour or two for over a year (and three kids in a row that did it!) then you know how low you can sink when you aren't getting the basic requirements of sleep.

In hindsight, I think I should have done a controlled crying system. It would have made the time I spent with my kids when they were little more enjoyable for us all if I wasn't tired and on the edge most of the time.

[Teeki]

Lol HotI, it only took DD one go to open her door too!

n2l, there is the worry that DD will continue to be a 'poor' sleeper after 4. But right now she continues to improve - last week, all week she only woke at 4am, that was it all night. And as she gets older she understands more, she's beginning to know when she's tired and gets herself ready for bed, and she's beginning to understand when mummy and daddy say she needs to stay in bed and go to sleep.

So if by the time she's four and older her only 'problem' is a wake up in the night where she brings herself to our room, I'll be pretty happy! We have a spare mattress she can come and sleep on without bothering us.

All that said though, I'm not in HotIs situation with a child and baby. I might be writing a completely different post if I had two not so good sleepers at once. In that article a comment was from s desperate mother, and I agree that desperation and sleep deprivation can lead a parent to do things they wouldn't otherwise consider.

[Heaven]

I am not a fan of CC at all. I don't think at any age I would let my child cry to sleep. When they were little I fed or rocked them to sleep for every sleep. Neither of them were great sleepers. DD1 was worse, waking every 45 mins for months on end. That was truly horrible.

The turning point for me, when I decided to 'do' something, was when I thought they understood me. When I could explain to them what I wanted. And when they could talk and tell me what was wrong. Then I felt I was able to change things and start getting them to sleep better because I could explain to them. So I night weaned both at around 16 months. They did protest about that but we just cuddled them to sleep instead and it wasn't long before they were both mostly sleeping through. I also taught them to put themselves to sleep for day naps. It was around 2 years for DD1 and a bit earlier for DD2. I just explained to them, and layed with them to get them to sleep and gradually stayed there less and less. They did get upset at times but it was ok because they were at an age we could talk about it. I still feed DD2 to sleep half the time because she is still learning. If she's too tired she has trouble and will tell me 'I'm upset, I need some booby'.

We have always stayed with them to go to sleep at night. We like that time with them at the end of the day and will only change that if it becomes a problem. DD1 was recently taking longer and longer to get to sleep at night and mucking around so we have now started just staying with her for a bit and then leaving and she goes to sleep by herself much quicker.

So for me, it has always just become obvious when the time was right that I could change things, and we've tried to do it in a way that no trust is lost and the kids feel safe and understand what's happening, even if they don't like it at first. It has worked for us. I think you can definitely make changes and still do it in a gentle way if that's what you want

[LuluHB]

It is all good to speculate how bad CC is when you have a good or even a bad sleeper. But when you have an absolutely horrid sleeper that wakes every hour or two for over a year (and three kids in a row that did it!) then you know how low you can sink when you aren't getting the basic requirements of sleep.

In hindsight, I think I should have done a controlled crying system. It would have made the time I spent with my kids when they were little more enjoyable for us all if I wasn't tired and on the edge most of the time.

I agree with this completely. Until you've had to function daily with severe sleep deprivation, you've no idea how hard it really is and I think CCing (and I mean controlled, not just abandon them as was advocated to me) can be by far the lesser of two "evils". Caring for a baby and/or other children while being sleep deprived can be a far more dangerous scenario than leaving them to cry a bit. For me the very hard part is getting the balance between doing what is the most beneficial for the entire family and what I can live with in the way of DD3's crying.

Pholi - yes, I have done the same thing with all my kids. Sure, you experiment a bit because they are all individuals and respond to different things, but as a general rule my approach to sleep is the same for them all. They have all been cuddled to sleep. None have been left to cry. What I find changes is that one may like to be held a different way to another, one settles better with me walking around the house cuddling whereas another I need to stay still in a chair in her room. That sort of thing. Fundamentally the same though

[~Gee_Whizzy~]

From *my* limited experience with two very different children it was about being able to tell the difference between an 'I'm grizzly and want to have a whinge/protest cry' to a full blown 'I really need a cuddle/kiss/pat etc Mum because I'm not coping cry'. And for *me* there is a very vast difference between CC and CIO and I understand and accept, that for a gentle parent philosophy, there is no diffrentiation.

I also wonder, how many of us grew up in the era where leaving a bub to cio was the 'norm' and if we were, do we feel damaged by it? Both my parents have passed, so i'm unable to ask but it is something I do think about
I guess as with each generation, we know better, therefore, we try to do better

[onthefly]

My DS just didn't want to sleep for the first 2 years. We tried all sorts of things before giving up. And then he just got it.
DD slept like a dream for the first 4-6 weeks. There's a thread around here somewhere with me pulling my hair out at 4 months wondering what to do differently... then I gave up again. On the whole, she's better now, but actually not as good as DS was at this age!

I don't think I did anything substantially different at the beginning or later on. As they've gotten older I have established boundaries for myself. They cry sometimes, yes.

I think expectations are important. Our cultural reference is the child sleeping alone. In another culture where families all sleep together as a matter of course, much of the anxiety of children wanting their parents in the night would be avoided, for eg.
I feel CC or CIO is a compromise I'm unwilling to make.

[lady_neon]

I also wonder, how many of us grew up in the era where leaving a bub to cio was the 'norm' and if we were, do we feel damaged by it? Both my parents have passed, so i'm unable to ask but it is something I do think about
I guess as with each generation, we know better, therefore, we try to do better

Many of my reasons for no CIO or CC stem from my dad. He grew up in a very 'unloving' home. His words. He believes he is irreparably damaged from neglect, never being hugged or once told he was loved, and glad that his dad passed away. And so because of everything that happened in his childhood, he chose the complete opposite for my siblings and I. One of the key ideas being never to let us cry, and spoiling us beyond belief (you know the old don't pick up the baby, you'll spoil her). He wholeheartedly agrees with current research suggesting that mental illness could be linked to very early years of neglect. Anyway, I realise his childhood was quite extreme and I'm not suggesting that anyone that chooses CIO or CC are neglectful or abusive.

[~Gee_Whizzy~]

Many of my reasons for no CIO or CC stem from my dad. He grew up in a very 'unloving' home. His words. He believes he is irreparably damaged from neglect, never being hugged or once told he was loved, and glad that his dad passed away. And so because of everything that happened in his childhood, he chose the complete opposite for my siblings and I. One of the key ideas being never to let us cry, and spoiling us beyond belief (you know the old don't pick up the baby, you'll spoil her). He wholeheartedly agrees with current research suggesting that mental illness could be linked to very early years of neglect. Anyway, I realise his childhood was quite extreme and I'm not suggesting that anyone that chooses CIO or CC are neglectful or abusive.

very sad for your Dad - I guess growing up in that kind of environment would drive someone to definitely try the alternative. thank you for sharing

ETA: I should clarify that i also meant as in when we were tiny babies , not an age of remembrance? - I do remember both parents being very affectionate when we were little (ie 4+ years old) but *I* don't remember or know what it was like when i was tiny baby...

[HotI]

Gee Whizzy, this is something i have thought of too. My folks were very affectionate to all of us as kids, no violence in the house, daily we were told we were loved, lots of hugs and kisses. My Mum also left us in the cot to go to sleep (and to cry). i don't know the specifics but it would fall into the cc field. i don't have any memory of this, don't know that i am damaged from it at all and was actually really surprised when Mum told me.

[~Gee_Whizzy~]

Gee Whizzy, this is something i have thought of too. My folks were very affectionate to all of us as kids, no violence in the house, daily we were told we were loved, lots of hugs and kisses. My Mum also left us in the cot to go to sleep (and to cry). i don't know the specifics but it would fall into the cc field. i don't have any memory of this, don't know that i am damaged from it at all and was actually really surprised when Mum told me.

I thought I was odd in thinking about it, so I'm glad I'm not the only one - I would hazard a guess, that I too, was left to cry given the era and it was 'normal' i guess? However, I don't *think* I'm damaged, but heck, I know it's not something I will ever be able to find out. I'm sure there is someone reading this thinking, just because you don't remember it, doesn't mean it isn't bad or life altering, which I do agree with. For me, I guess I'm the type of person who likes to see something "proven" before taking it as gospel and I mean proven into adulthood, not just infancy, of which there are lots of studies to prove that CC or CIO IS bad for bubs with increased cortisol levels detrimental to developing brains etc.

[lady_neon]

Knew what you meant Gee Whizzy, I just got off an a tangent and I think I missed my own point LOL

I don't believe CIO or CC is a guarantee the kids gonna be messed up, I do believe though it is linked to mental illness and brain development so its not a risk I want to take. Plus there is a lot of anecdotal evidence of CIO/CC babies that now have terrible, messed up relationships with their parents along with depression and anxiety, and the rocked to sleep/spoiled babies are seemingly a-ok in my life. Evidence enough for me.

[~Gee_Whizzy~]

Knew what you meant Gee Whizzy, I just got off an a tangent and I think I missed my own point LOL

I don't believe CIO or CC is a guarantee the kids gonna be messed up, I do believe though it is linked to mental illness and brain development so its not a risk I want to take. Plus there is a lot of anecdotal evidence of CIO/CC babies that now have terrible, messed up relationships with their parents along with depression and anxiety, and the rocked to sleep/spoiled babies are seemingly a-ok in my life. Evidence enough for me.

that's ok, glad I'm not the only one that goes off on a tangent.....especially in my own mind - I know what i want to say, just have trouble articulating it sometimes!

[Teeki]

I've wondered about the long term effects too. I don't know for certain, but I gather from past comments that the reason that I 'slept through' from 6 weeks is that I stopped being tended to. I was in my own room and there were no monitors back then which probably didn't help.

I had big problems falling asleep until I had DD - now I practically pass out every chance I get - but when I was a kid I'd be up all hours of the night reading by torch light or talking to myself, and as an adult I'd get seriously frustrated at still being awake in bed at 2am. I was also a very clingy kid, and didn't like to do things on my own. That changed when I was about 15, I started becoming more independent. Honestly, my Mum didn't handle that well and we still have a somewhat strained relationship.

So, I don't know if you could say it's because I was left to cry, or because when I was practically grown up Mum wanted to continue mothering/babying me. It has made me wonder though.

[nothing2lose]

I refuse to believe that the sole determinant, or even the main determinant, of a person's mental and emotional state, along with the state of their relationship with their parents, is whether or not their parents practised CC or not.

Life is not that simplistic.

[~Gee_Whizzy~]

I refuse to believe that the sole determinant, or even the main determinant, of a person's mental and emotional state, along with the state of their relationship with their parents, is whether or not their parents practised CC or not.

Life is not that simplistic.

I agree n2l. I too don't believe it is the sole reason for mental illness - genetics, environment etc would all be contributing factors. I do, however, think that there would be ppl who believe(rightly or wrongly!)it is in infancy, that it begins?

[lady_neon]

I certainly do not believe CIO/CC is the sole reason for mental health problems, no way! But I believe it *can be* a contributing factor, for sure.

There are way too many instances of depression, bipolar, anxiety and suicide attempts in both DH and my families for us to potentially add another risk factor.

ETA sorry I wasn't clear about this earlier and have caused any offence.

Also, please note when referring to family relationships and connections to CIO/CC I did say that it is anecdotal evidence in *my* life.

[Artechim]

This is what I was trying to say before. It is accepted that the first three years are vital for the development of the brain and maltreatment/neglect has a serious impact on that. But if you left a well loved and well cared for child to CIO every night for two weeks, that is only a very small percentage of their infancy (total crying hours/total time in 3 years). Yes they will have elevated cortisol levels during the crying period but would not be enough to cause damage to the hippocampus if their needs are being met 99+% of the time. It is long term stress e.g. prolonged serious neglect that has been implicated in learning/memory difficulties and depression later in life.

[Teeki]

I certainly don't believe that a child who experiences CC/CIO in infancy but is otherwise raised in a loving family can say that is the sole reason for any mental health/relationship issues, but I believe it could be one factor.

I also wonder if some parents who do CC/CIO on a very young infant as a matter of course, are they more likely to do other things that will result in a more dysfunctional adult? I'm really not saying the majority of parents who do CC/CIO are like this - mine certainly weren't and from what I've read neither is anyone on this forum who's tried it. But I wonder in the studies, if the parents of the children studied also withheld love in other ways too, or did other things to cause issues, but the sleep method was the only thing questioned?

I hope that makes sense and doesn't offend anyone, I'm trying to get my thoughts out in the right way.