The smacking debate

[Smoke Jaguar]

And yes, I've noticed that there are only a few people who talk to children and even parents think I'm mad for engaging with children as well as adults! How do you learn how to hold a conversation properly otherwise?

Exactly! It's not like you can learn it from sitting in a pram disconnected from the taller world! I'm sure I'm condemned every day for treating my son like he has equal status
As for praise, when Kohn talks about praise I have to be sitting, because it reminds me of the praise and rewards I got as a kid. He strikes such a chord with me when he says rewards and punishments are the same thing. They are conditional and they are extrinsically based. Rewards and praise take attention away from the inherent benefits of doing the target behaviour. I remember my mum praising me for doing the ironing. It just happened to be something I used to like to do, for kicks, to see the flat, warm clothes at the end of the process. I hated the praise and found it so hard to take that I asked her to stop doing it. She looked at me like I'd spoken gobbledy gook and said "when you do something good I want to praise you", as it it were a given that was never questioned. I couldn't put my finger on my discomfort until I read Kohn's take on rewards, punishments and praise. To me, praise is like saying "wow, I really like what you're doing and the unspoken thing is that I'll keep liking you until you stop doing things that I like, so make sure the next thing is something I approve of". That's how it felt and that's how I feel about it still.
When DS does something I'm happy about, I sometimes find myself falling into my conditioning and say 'Good boy' and as soon as it's out of my mouth I realise, so I go on to say what I wanted to say and that's "Thank you for doing x". The reward is knowing that it was something he did that had a positive effect on someone, not my approval of him and vocal encouragement to keep seeking other ways to find approval. I dont' want him to be an approval junkie, just a deed junkie So, when he's done something I have really liked, I limit myself to 'thank you'. As such, he models these words when I do something useful for him (I HAVE been called a 'good boy' before! Between my slip ups and other people's use of the term, it's bound to happen!) that gives him happiness. I INSIST on extracting a thank you from DP when DS is around and I've done something nice for him. Not because I have hang ups about P's and Q's, but because I know people like to hear it and it will smooth his way, socially from here on in.
So, I understand the urge to praise, and now that I've had the chance to explore my deep seated discomfort with it I'm able to mostly overcome my own urges and concentrate on what he's doing, rather than having him think he's a worthier person for having done it.
The thing is, for there to be a 'good boy' there has to be a 'bad or naughty boy' - one day, before we know it, our kids will understand that there exists a dichotomy and 'bad boy' is a far more arbitrary thing than the opposite - in a kid's world, goal posts shift so much and adults must seem so fickle, because we have an understanding of context and 'place' that kids just don't have the life experience to inform them. I definitely had the 'naughty girl' complex, and it's taken me a lifetime to shed it. If I didn't hear praise for something I did, my ears got all creepy crawly just waiting to be 'caught out' - for some new reason why what I did was the wrong thing to do. So, there's no real 'good' or 'bad' in my house. There's a hearty 'You did it!', 'Yep, like that', 'Well done, team' (yeah, thanks Bob the Builder!) and even the latter is still a value judgment. It's a work in progress. And I love how DS will do things without looking at me for that subtle approval, he'll just do it and see how the cards fall. He is also great at praising himself! That kind of praise is ok, I figure

I mean, yes, sometimes DS gets a present for a specified good behaviour. But not every time. And most of the presents I buy him are "because I love you" or "for being your wonderful self" and not at all behaviour related.

I don't reward certain responses with pressies, the same as they don't get 'praise'. Studying psych and seeing the progression of the Behaviourists alarmed me somewhat when I first studied it at uni, and Kohn really critiques the hold this school of psych has in the US (not really much in Europe and even UK till more recent times). Skinner devised his theories of reinforcement of behaviours solely on animals. Now, I don't even really like the idea of behaviourism for my own animals, let alone my child! Kohn resonates so much with my doubts about values that were drilled into me, so I do refer to this book quite a bit since reading it. So, as such, I don't like to use rewards like pressies to elicit repeated actions. Hopefully, the actions I value from DS are ones that DO have intrinsic value that bear repeating for. Actions that are only worth doing with a carrot on a stick MUST be re-evaluated for their worth, in my own raising of my child. The silly little bugger gets 'treats' from time to time just cos I love him - no hoops for this brat :P So, like you, just for 'being himself'.
I think it's really rude of that lady to say your child is a monkey! Depending on how she said it (when I say it, it's a term of endearment and it's clear that I dont' mind a little monkeyness in the least!), she has no place for it. I remember being at the pool and a lady who had left her water bottle by the edge of the pool (bright orange, and DS, being the only child of his age to use the big pool there, went straight for it!) pronounced "he obviously gets away with everything" because he'd thrown her bottle into the water again. I mean, bite me, lady! From one action that he obviously was getting a kick out of, this tells her everything she needs to know about my son? Never mind that the kid is the only kid skilled and confident enough to be leaping in and out of the big pool when other kids get worried when they can't feel the bottom anymore? I bet she thought he needed a smack!
So, 'thank you' can often take the place of 'good boy' or 'good girl'. I love how they do this on Thomas and Bob the Builder - everyone is grateful when someone else does something nice, instead of approved of. It's just too easy for kids to get mixed up and not realise it's the ACTION that's been approved of and not their SELF, and then I don't want DS to conceive of himself as merely a vessel for actions by the same token. He is a being who can enact positivity in his world, and I would like him to realise when he's being counterproductive by being unsafe or creating more work for mummy, rather than conceiving himself as 'good' and 'worthy', by extension.
I wonder if this makes sense - it IS late here and I could easily write a dissertation on all my realisations and influences about raising my child!
I'm finding your questions, Bec and Ryn, very stimulating

[Smoke Jaguar]

Thought I'd mention, too, that experiments and studies show that rewards are not a good enough reason to keep doing something. Kids who were rewarded for a task stopped doing the task or finding it interesting a lot sooner than kids who were just given a task to do for its own sake (control groups). It helps explain why some jobs just don't pay enough after a while and people quit to move onto something more fulfilling and intrinsically rewarding. The studies also found that verbal praise was a real killer for continuing with a task or activity and this I can relate to very personally (refer ironing task!) because it takes away from the activity itself and places value on the person doing it. I mean, if I stop ironing, do I become less lovable? Less worthy of praise for being me? I'd like to think I was a great kid even if I wasn't doing the ironing, KWIM?
People are still going to relate to my child in this conditional fashion in his life and I have to deal with that. He has to deal with that. Hopefully, the way he's treated at home can fortify him against the conditionality out there and give him enough faith in himself. If there's one place he can be totally himself and adored for just that, it's gotta be at home.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

That's really interesting! I grew up with no praise, very little appreciation and certainly not being a good girl. I was clever, but that was it. And who wants to be clever? I wanted to be pretty! I also hated it when my mum said I had a good sense of humour. Why? Because I wanted to be pretty, just once! But me being pretty upset my sister, so she heard it and I didn't. I was quite a nasty thing for some time because I didn't want a "nice personality", I wanted to be pretty! Only ugly girls get told they have a nice personality, as if it's a back-up thing to have.

DS is good boy because that's how I want him to identify himself. He knows some things are naughty boy things to do and doesn't do them, because they're not good boy. But you're right, it's coercing him into praise and a certain model to please me. When he does something thoughtful I do thank him AND call him good, and explain what it is about his behaviour that I like.

BTW, if I buy a treat it is AFTER the event when DS has been exceptionally good boy - he has gone to PiL's home and eaten all his meal, not made a mess, said thank you for AT LEAST the food and basically been more of an adult than his grandfather is (not hard, admittedly). So he MAY get a present if we're doing the shopping on the way home anyway AND we can afford it. I'll try "thank you" on its own a bit more. Good idea.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I was a bad child for not doing the ironing properly - mum is a control freak who had to do it all by herself then whinge her junior-school children didn't think to vacuum the house for her. I wanted her to love me but couldn't even vacuum correctly when I did think to do it.

I thought the studies showed that children who were given random and sporadic praise for a task were the better off? Constant praise resulted in demand for praise and no praise resulted in disheartenment.

[paradise lost]

See this is where it gets foggy for me Maya, with the "thanks!" versus "good boy/girl!". I strongly feel from looking at DD that she (and only she, until i have another kid i won't know how they will be) senses approval WAY beyond specific words. In general i tend to thanks her for good behaviour, but i sense that to her, that's praise. I don't think she differentiates between "thanks" and "good girl" (which i do say occasionally) because when she's done something useful/helpful she will say "DD helped Mama! Sooo PROUD!" and strut about pleased as punch with herself She's very energetic and finds something to do herself if i don't keep her busy, so i tell her thanks about 100 times a day. On the other hand if she's getting under my feet and i'm frazzled i will say on occasion "DD that's NOT helping, can you do xxx instead please!?". I have never said SHE's naughty, but i have told her a behaviour or action is naughty/dangerous/hurtful. In our house "naughty" is the mildest of criticism, "dangerous" is the most serious and "makes mama/DP sad" (reserved for when she hits or wrecks our stuff) is the probably the one we move on from slowest. If i tell her she's doing something a bit naughty she comes and waits for me to give her something better to do. If i tell her something is dangerous she (usually) stops right away and that's the end of it. If she's hitting or something she is told that it hurts and asked to stop and if she doesn't she's warned she'll be put outside the room and we demonstrate "gently hands" and say "nice to mama/DP" and if she continues with the hitting i stick her out in the hall to think it over for a bit. If it goes that far (rare) i pop my head out and ask, after a moment or two (never more than about 90seconds unless she's raging outside the door, then i go out and ask her to please sit and calm down with deep breathing (which i do with her). Once she's calm i ask if she's ready to come back and join in and she says yes and i ask her to apologise to the victim for the hitting and then we all cuddle and move on.

TBH i can't remember whether i was told i was a "good girl" or not. My mum was terminally ill by the time i was 14 so i did masses around the house and she and Dad were always really grateful for my efforts, even when they weren't up to their standards. I think the ongoing "crisis" of her illness made us very like that though, grateful and caring more than we would have been in a "normal" situation. I can remember that i was constantly told i was beautiful, strong, intelligent and funny. My sister occasionally says she felt sorry for me because or their "expectations" but their delivery must have felt better than it looked because actually i just grew up knowing i AM all those things Modest too....lol.

I don't really reward DD as such with "things". When she uses the potty she sometimes asks for her Tigger (a tigger eggcup full of raisins) which she gets, but other than that i can't think what i reward for. If she wants a magazine and we can afford it (never more than one every 3-4 weeks) she can have one. I don't buy her sweets or treats but i always share my own if i'm having something yummy. I do often say "you're my good kid" but not in response to her doing something, just in passing, in the same way as i'll say "i love you".

Bx

[Smoke Jaguar]

I mean, yes, sometimes DS gets a present for a specified good behaviour. But not every time. And most of the presents I buy him are "because I love you" or "for being your wonderful self" and not at all behaviour related.

Me, too! Also not behaviour related, just when we're sitting having Babu and I'm gushing at him mercilessly I tell him he's 'awesome' all the time.
DS has come to see chips while shopping as part of the shopping process, not a reward for being cooperative - my mum got him used to chips while shopping and I give them to him cos he likes them and because it's a preemptive measure (like anticipating my horse is going to skip sideways at the chooks on one end of the arena, so I start half-halting many paces before hand...he doens't even notice what I'm achieving!). I've never told him that it's because he helped me with shopping, or for 'being good'. Ideally, it would have been something a lot healthier, but the main reason I have gone along with this habit is because I am an absolute sucker for salt and vinegar chips myself and he has to share them!
Wow, RH, I'm finding it hard to place myself as a parent who can't say that both her kids are pretty/beautiful! Your reactions make sense, when your parents' opinions are gold and they are the ones you trust about how the world is categorised. Like Bec, I was told I was everything - most beautiful, most clever, most artistic, most musical. My sister and I both were. That was my mum's reaction to never being told these things as a kid, and I admit I think it was a good strategy. Later on I incorporated my own ideas and experiences of beauty and intelligence into this and put it in perspective, but as a kid who needs perspective? I will never forget Marilyn Monroe's insistence that every girl needs to be told she's the most beautiful girl in the world, whether she is or not. I would say especially if she doesn't conform to the beauty ideal!

then i go out and ask her to please sit and calm down with deep breathing (which i do with her).

I love how you go out with her and show her how to regulate her emotions I wish DP would do this when he banished DS to a chair...gonna tell him today! It's right up the alley of 'doing with' instead of 'doing to', which is genuine 'discipline', isn't it?

[paradise lost]

My reason for doing the breathing IS to rectify something my parents missed actually. When i was small (under 5) i felt my emotions like a torrent i was bobbing about in, and i often got totally lost in them. I became hysterical from laughing as much from crying and i have terrible memories of my mother holding my arms and shouting "CALM DOWN!" into my face and inside me, unable to get out due to the sobbing and upset, i was thinking "HOW!? Tell me HOW!" so i knew when i saw that DD could get the same way, i wanted to give her not only instructions but tools.

Bx

[Smoke Jaguar]

i was thinking "HOW!? Tell me HOW!"

Precisely! I really love this approach. I see so many parents banishing kids to corners and rooms (or in DS's case, a chair) and left there to sort themselves out, it's heartbreaking. Even in horse herds, the mare squares off the offender, then, waiting for contrition, averts the gaze and turns her body away to allow the offender back in - she doesn't banish the offender where they can't be seen, and easily preyed upon. It's so mean. Empathy and compassion are essential to raising nice kids who do things for other people without return or expectation of return.
I had another great outing with DS today - he dragged me into a local cafe because he remembered having coffee, toast, bacon and eggs there once, and we were like chums, getting comments and nice looks from patrons as he poured me juice, poured him juice...and then went to the retaining wall (the wrong side of it), called me over and jumped! Lucky, I'm all too familiar with his MO and was ready for it! That just buoys me in my confidence with the job I'm doing, that he implicitly trusts that I understand him, and WANT to understand him

[onthefly]

To me, a "thank you for doing xx, I appreciated that" is just more intrinsically truthful than a "good boy", which, as pointed out, is a value judgment.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I've just realised how much I use "good boy" with DS - not only is it hard to cut out, but he does think his name is "good boy". As in "What's Lieblinggoodboy up to?" "Good goy trains!"

I'm not blind to his faults, but it's hard to not praise him letting me have a lie-in by playing nicely in his bed until he wanted me to open the curtains so he could see the bin van. I want him to have confidence in his behaviour and talents. And "thank you, Mammy appreciates it when Liebling lets her have a shower" is no different really from "Good boy let Mammy have a shower, thank you, that was nice" really.

I was just remembering last night the time I was ironing for Mum (age about 11, second time in my life), she blinked and I scorched an iron mark onto the leather label on the back of Dad's jeans. I was in tears for ages, petrified of the reaction. Dad thought I was mad but Mum never let me iron for years after that because I didn't know how to do it properly. I was a disappointment. I was scared Dad would hit me for it too, but he's not so anal as Mum.

If that were DS, I'd just laugh and tell him that's why I don't bother ironing (honestly, I never iron. I have about 5 things that need ironing and I get DH to do them when he irons work things. Bit of a hang-up, I think). But it's a lesson learnt for next time he wants to iron his clothes.

And I want DS to, as a child, associate himself with being good, polite, kind, thoughtful, musical, artistic, clever, strong... so I'll give him quantitative praise for that. "What a good boy for saying thank you!" "Thank you for doing that for me, I appreciate it, it is very good of you." "I love hearing you sing, you're good at it." I want to give him confidence. I didn't have that as a child and even though it is a bit value judgement, I still praise things I don't like.

"Thank you for helping me by taking things off the airer and putting them on the chair for me. That's very kind and thoughtful of you. Oh dear, they're still wet (because they came out the machine five minutes ago). Let's wait until they're dry before taking them off, shall we?" It's an extra job for me, but he is praised because the intent was there and was good.

[paradise lost]

Oh i've got that thing where in your head a concept is very clear but in trying to word it it turns to mud....

I think i can't see that "good" and "thanks" are that different to a small child because both are equally subjective. There are plenty of things DD does for me that i'd thank her for that i KNOW my MIL for example would tell her off for attempting. She's not doing anything differently at all, but one of us would praise and the other admonish. People value and appreciate different things, how do we teach kids to cope with this?

I think young children ALL seek approval because we are social animals. That means we need to stay mostly out of trouble within our groups to survive. I know my DD will do and say things to me, DP and XP she wouldn't DREAM of risking with someone else because she's more secure in our love and behaviour patterns. But we're the safety pen where she gets to try out all the various social niceties (and not!) before the big bad world judgement.

I do think that by the time a person is maybe an older teen they can tell and appreciate the difference between arbitrary approval and grateful thanks, and i don't particularly like the use of "good boy/girl" to the OMISSION of proper thanks when deserved because "good/bad" seems a very binary and total judgement (i.e. it's easier to understand gran doesn't appreciate something that mama DOES appreciate than in gran's house you're a bad person and in mama's you're a good person), but i just have this feeling that for DD anyway, ATM approval from me is valuable for her and it makes little difference whether it's passing kiss and "You're my good kid" just because or a big thankyou cuddle because she put all her toys away.

I think Ryn said up above that sporadic praise seems in studies to have the most desireable outcomes..? I can see that being the case - without thanks every task MIGHT well become motivated by the need to hear that one is "good" or "bad" but surely without that random praise and compliments a child might begin to feel THEY are only worth what they can do for others? It's a bit chicken and egg. I suppose i want DD to know that she's great just being herself, and that part of that is because she's so helpful, but also because she's cheerful, funny, affectionate, smart and beautiful and because i just ADORE her even when she's just sitting watching Night Garden doing nothing. I often tell her what good hugs she gives me, how much i like having her around, how her smile makes me smile too and how infectious her giggle is. You will frequently hear me say to her, after she has begun hitting mid-tantrum, that i love her no matter how hard she hits, even when the hitting makes me sad. Once she said, in my arms after calming down and quietly stroking my cheek better after slapping it several times, "mama doesn't LIKE a hitting, but mama LOVES a DD". I hope we can keep our current level of understanding.

Bx

[Nelle]

He mumbled "sorry" at her and she said, through her tears "Ok, s'a accident man"

Ohh Hoobs, she just sounds so wonderful. What a sweetie.

As for discipline, I really think the key is the motivation/emotion behind it. If you discipline (smack, talk, whatever) in anger, then I don't think it will go too well. You'll just teach your child to avoid making mum or dad angry.
But I think if you have teaching in mind, and are thinking 'how can I best teach my child this lesson?' - then you are in a good place to act.

For us, that means a lot of explaining to Riv, but he is little and stubborn and doesn't learn lessons well. He thinks danger is hilarious, and I would rather upset him than see him seriously hurt (the less ouchy lessons we let him learn on his own). What works for us is the tap on hand to get attention (a fraction of the roughness we use when we're rough-housing with him), a stern explanation. He looks upset, we hug him (a rule here is that any un-fun discipline is always followed by a hug), and go on our way. Rinse and repeat.

I thought I wouldn't really be a 'smacker', but his safety and character is foremost in my concerns. If I am furious with him (rarely, so far), I will put him in his room with a drink bottle and a snack (he's locked in with a safety gate), and go do something else for a short time (maybe call dh to debrief) til I've calmed.

And I think that's the key with ANY sort of discipline. To know your limits, and have the self-control to act within them. As we've observed, depending on what 'speaks' to your child (kind of referring to the 5 love languages Cailin previously mentioned), any thing you do in anger can crush them.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I haven't seen a human study on sporadic praise, or seen one referenced (maybe just can't remember), the only one on sporadic rewards I've seen is on rats and pressing a button that randomly gives food and they keep trying it. This is opposed to where they learn when food comes out if it's arranged to come out at regular intervals or in a pattern, then stop pressing after a while when that regularity becomes nil food. Sporadic praise in humans could get very confusing indeed, and kids would continue to do a task in the hope of that random praise, not because of the task itself, I would hypothesise.
I don't know that DS seeks approval, I think he seeks encouragement and social cues more than approval for everything he does with me. I would like to think he knows he has my implicit approval of himself for being himself. My own motto in life is to be myself and be true to who I am, so that colours my hopes for DS!
Here's a quote from Elizabeth Pantley's thoughts on Discipline:

Discipline really isn't about tantrums or writing on the walls. It's abotu helping your child to make the right choices in life. Discipline doesn't start with the frist tantrum; it begins the first day you hold your baby in your arms. Every interaction you have with your baby teaches her something, and it's the cumulative effect of all of your life lessons that will come together as the basis for the person that she will become.

(Pantley, 2003, p.191 - Gentle Baby Care)
I guess this sums up what I aim for with DS.
I think we're getting closer to the 'thank you/good kid' conflation issue with Bec's mention of later life. I was thinking about this today (gotta love a time zone difference!) and thinking that yes, the two are quite arbitrary for now. It's later on, once DS has the pattern and observes the custom of saying thank you, that he will consolidate his grasp of the gratitude concept with his customary utterances, which are, for now, learned responses.
Right now, I want DS to know he's a good person, regardless of what he does or doesn't do. He's too young to be a bad person. I don't believe there are many genuinely 'bad' persons out there. People can do the wrong thing, it doesn't make them 'bad'. The thing with Behaviourism is that we take motives, morals, inspiration, imagination and creativity right out of the equation, by some magic, when we define humans as masses of flesh housing a bunch of learned and reinforced responses to stimuli. I give humans far more credit than this, and rewards, punishments and praise seem far too akin to Behaviourism tenets than I'm comfortable with.
DS can be GOOD at something, for sure - it just doesn't make him a 'good' person, in itself. People can be great at sport, or be beautiful or good at what they do and it doesn't really indicate how nice they are as people. Too much emphasis on good skills or verbal assurances of 'goodness' sort of skew the focus of importance, and that would be the little person's 'place' and purpose in the world - instead of their 'betterness'. In this way, I do hold some admiration for collectivist societies. Individualism is up for so much corruption and contortion. Both worlds have their ills, I guess and it's up to us to strike a balance.
Anyway, as far as discipline and challenging behaviour, I find a good way to develop empathy and to relate directly to a child is to train yourself to think "what's going on for this child that they're doing/saying this?". It's ok to come down a few notches to figure it out, because kids are just NOT capable of temporarily entering an adult consciousness to understand just what we want from them and when. We ARE able to go back to basics from our more experienced views and expectations. Choosing to exercise this ability can make a difference to the way you relate to your child and the kinds of tools you have in your parenting kit.
ETA: Trust me, if DS did half the things he does here in a 'smackers' home (whether it's tapping as Nelle describes or more convincing smacks), he would be one smacked out child! He really is your 'classic' candidate for smacking. Sure, he might even stop doing those things...when you're around, or because he's afraid of the punishment rather than having learned the lesson etc. I HAVE to give him more credit than resorting to smacking. He was spraying the TV yesterday with a water bottle I gave him for the hot weather, and it was repetitive and involved more supervision to keep him from spraying the TV some more, but it didn't occur to me once until just now that many others would have smacked him. It's so far off my parenting path that it would actually require some planning and thinking ahead to use smacking as a resource! It doesn't come naturally to me, thankfully. I wish my mum had been as patient and resourceful with me as I am with DS. I'm still getting a good kid out of it, just not one who doesn't feel he has a safe place to fall, like I was.