Reply With Quotethat's fine Tenar - lots of us think your decisions are wrong too, but we don't need to be so rude or snide about it....
So much for me staying out
now while I agree on my own with what you are saying......I think that you need to take a step back and allow others to make their own chioces without a judgmental or snide comment. Its almost as if your taking it personally. Take a step back and listen to why others think the opposite of you instead of yelling over the top of everyone.
Just because you think your right, doesnt mean the other person is wrong. We are all doing the best we can to nuture our children.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds.
that's fine Tenar - lots of us think your decisions are wrong too, but we don't need to be so rude or snide about it....
Last edited by Lulu; December 11th, 2009 at 07:31 AM.
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Well we are all entitled to our opinions and even to express them, aren't we? This is a forum that encourages discussion of different approaches to parenting. I am not aware that I have been rude (I am certainly forthright, though), and I am sorry if you are offended by my opinions. I am reading every response to this and other similar threads with great care, because I want to better understand why people make the choices they make.
At least I haven't resorted to calling anybody names...
And of course I consider this to be, in some ways, a personal discussion. It is certainly something that I take much more seriously now I am a mother. The reason is that people's decisions not to vaccinate their children increase the chances of my child becoming ill from something she is not yet old enough to have the vaccination for. Reaching and maintaining herd immunity is the point of the exercise.
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I think you need to understand that even if all children were vaccinated, they can be carriers of virus' and therefore your child would still get sick... even if all children were vaccinated.The reason is that people's decisions not to vaccinate their children increase the chances of my child becoming ill from something she is not yet old enough to have the vaccination for. Reaching and maintaining herd immunity is the point of the exercise.
My DD1 has autism, she was vaccinated through a delayed schedule and we had a special MMR vaccination. DD2 had one vaccination at 6 months and no more since. She does not have autism.
I know from my personal experiences that vaccination is not always "the cure". I also know how it feels to see lives lost due to the diseases that are vaccinated against. I work as a vet nurse, and see dogs and cats with diseases which can be vaccinated against. I also have seen the misuse of vaccination in the industry.
I don't think its anyones place to say if its "right" or "wrong". I really don't. So if your choice is to vaccinate, that is your informed decision. If someone elses choice is to not vaccinate, that is their informed choice.
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My heart goes out to anyone dealing with severe heath issues and of course to parents of children on the autism spectrum. I can only imagine how difficult it is and how you long for answers and solutions.
But, anecdotal evidence (as compared to rigorous scientific evidence) has been shown time and time again to be a very poor basis for decision making. And in fact, making decisions based on anecdotal evidence can be dangerous and do more harm than good.
I fully acknowledge that science doesn't have all the answers. Inanna your personal health issues and the cancer cluster at ABC Brisbane are stunning examples of that. But I would say that exceptions like those examples are actually very rare and for the most part science gets it right a vast majority of the time.
As some of you have said, it's all about risk assessment isn't it? What are the risks of giving a vaccination compared to not giving a vaccination. Unfortunately so much of the evidence that seems to persuade people not to vaccinate is anecdotal, not scientific and not peer reviewed. I think that people should be very careful of this sort of information and that it is not the best evidence for making decisions about risk.
I personally don't understand why people seem to have latched on to vaccination. There seems to be so many other more plausible culprits to me? Smoking, drinking, drug taking, eating food with pesticide residues and who know what kind of preservatives and additives, trans-fats. Not to mention the chemicals exuded from paints, carpets, plastics, etc, etc, etc.... The modern world really.
and that my dear is how everyone feels.
Thankyfully you havent had to worry about the joys of autism as many others have. I understand now why people do not immunise due to fear of having a spectrum child. Chicken pox, measles ect only stay a short while.....autism is a life long sentence.
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I have been watching this thread, and the discussion with interest.
I have a question, I hope no-one minds me asking just out of curiosity.
For those of you who believe there is a link between vaccinations & autism, is it the MMR vax that you believe is most to blame? Or all of them?
A lot of the talk has been about the chickenpox vax, but I have heard people blaming vaccinations for years before this vaccine was introduced. Do you believe that this particular vax poses a risk? What about the other diseases people vaccinate against?
ETA - I'm not holding an opinion here - I think a lot of you have made some great points - I'm just trying to keep up with you all& understand a bit more.
BellyBelly Member
Jasp - for us, I had immunised DD up until 12 months as, after reaserching I believed that it was the right decision for us. Shortly before DD was due for her MMR there was the case of the 8 yr old who feel into a catatonic autistic state in the US and was awarded millions in compensation. This got me thinking again and after discussing with our dr and consultation with the currently available articles our dr advised us that in our situation with a strong family history of autism he would not advise vaccination considering none of the articles currently saying there was no link have looked indepth to vaccination and family history.
We will not be vaccinating against anything else either until research proves one way or the other.
I believe the chicken pox vax was brought up as it is mentioned in the press release that chicken pox is another vax that has the same additives and is given around the same time and could be a contributing factor given the scanario in the article of a "perfect storm" complex where it is the culmination of a genetic predisposition, proteins in the body of the individual, an imbalance between two amino acids and the addition of the additives in the vaccine that may trigger a reaction in some people that results in the development of autistic traits.
BellyBelly Life Subscriber
Mummato2 - That exhaustive list of 'references' you posts should, on the bulk, be treated with extreme caution. I randomly selected a few just to see the credentials, and in you list there are many articles that are not written by experts in their field.
One on the list is posted on a blog.
Another is written by a 'health editor'... that's code for journalist - definitely not to be confused with medical scientist.
One (may be more, I only looked a few) was written by a person specialising in 'Life & Social Sciences'. Although this contains the word 'science', it's not. not by a long shot. It's psychology. Very very very different degree to science &/or medicine
Many on the list are over 10 years old - which in the relms of science start to become 'uncitable' due to age. Where they are recent, they are usually reviews of literature of which, most of that original literature is over 10 years old.
There is a very big difference in a scientific study using raw data & a literary review (sometimes called study). The latter is not pure science, but draws conclusions from other peoples conclusions. Like a professional game of chinese whispers.
Let me state this: chose what you want in terms of vaccinations. It's your choice. I won't tell you that your decision is wrong just because it is different. But be educated about it. Don't read sensationalist garbage & expect to have the best information.
the following is one from the list that actully contains an appropriate number of references for the size of the paper (+140), but you also must consider that this particular only studied 45 hamsters - which is a fairly small population. Something else that is good is that it has 6 pages of dicussion. Never believe any article that summarises in one paragraph - as some did from that posted list.
http://www.sarnet.org/lib/ATT01062.pdf
That's enough from me.
Epacaris my love I will kindly and respectfully loudly dispute that the examples I gave are very rare... They simply are not. We don't know. I would be foolish and erroneous to say unequivocally that vaccinations can trigger ASD in susceptible children. However, I have seen enough to know that it is a distinct possibility.I fully acknowledge that science doesn't have all the answers. Inanna your personal health issues and the cancer cluster at ABC Brisbane are stunning examples of that. But I would say that exceptions like those examples are actually very rare and for the most part science gets it right a vast majority of the time.
I have seen a child regress into an unresponsive state within 20mins of vax. I have seen that with my eyes. No reason could be given. I know that child now is severely autistic. I saw that.
I have seen my friends child convulse from febrile convulsions & regress. She also is autistic.
I have seen other less severe reactions.
No doctor worth his degree is going to state that vaccination is not risk free. Thankfully for most children the reactions are not life altering. However, for some it appears they may be.
To use my cancer cluster at the ABC comment. Those people were told that there was no evidence, just a fluke, people get cancer. If towers caused cancer we'd all have it... yadda yadda. However, all of those that have cancer - that isn't any comfort. I believe those people who are working tirelessly to solve this mystery will uncover a truth. Do you think ABC want that to happen? Not likely as it will cost millions in compensation.
In fact I believe the compensation payouts are in negotiation. Scratch the surface and you will find countless cases where these "flukes" happen time and again...
Of course colloquial evidence isn't weighty - bu it would be very foolish for anyone to discount it.
When Imogen was to leave the RBWH I was really put through the grill for not immunising her. I was told quite truthfully if she was to contract pertussis she would almost definitely die. I chose not to immunise her. Now when she arrived at the private hospital where she was to complete her stay in special care she had routine bloods. She had a condition where she just didn't have the reserves to fight anything - more so than would be expected. The alarm bells were rung - was she immunised? NO! Thank the heavens as she likely would have become critically ill had she been. I actually cried for 3 hours after that. Shaking, crying - if I had consented to what my intuition told me I shouldn't what would have happened to my beautiful baby?
Science is wonderful but to hand our bodies and our children over to it as if on a platter is dangerous. Why? Because we are human beings. We have much more than chemicals. We have integral differences each of us. We are each unique. We have triggers that maybe the next one doesn't. That is why a perfectly "safe" injection of penicillin is fine for you - for me I have an anaphylaxis and end up on life support. (true story)...
It is an outrage Tenar for you to announce that I who have studied this subject extensively for 16 years, who has had a child react badly and has ASD - that I made the "wrong" choice.
Just as outrageous would it be to call you "wrong" for immunising. Of course you are not wrong you have made the choice that you believe is right for you. I made that choice too for my first child & it ended in hospital with strict instructions not to immunise her anymore... Interesting that "science" exempted my oldest daughter...
My son I am sure would be ASD had he been triggered. He has the hallmarks without the antisocial behaviour that his older sister displayed... I wasn't going to hand any of my other children over to the science that some love and trust so deeply. I couldn't after my experience with his sister. And so his sisters following him also.
Now, I took a chance with their health. However, for me the chance to immunise was greater.
I am not "wrong" Tenar. Nor am I an ill informed or uneducated woman. I am a very intelligent woman who is often times very conflicted about my decisions. I sometimes cringe when I read some anti vax stuff - it can get very military... Then I read the pro vax & frankly its no less so.
I will not be involved in vaccination programmes in small babies as I have no faith that what I would be giving is not going to cause long term problems.
I also know that when our vax levels reach below 30% we are at risk of large outbreaks.
Do you think Gardasil is safe??? What about the reactions to this vax that have occured? Do we know the long term issues??? The answer is no we don't. I couldn't give it to my daughter - as we just don't know.
Science has deemed safe many drugs and vaccines that have proven to be unsafe or cause terrible reactions.
Having worked in health care - man I wouldn't hand over my health or my child without asking lots of questions.
Because I know the answers are not there. When my liver ruptured and I was bleeding internally - that wasn't "supposed" to happen... My results showed I had no clotting disorder so the anticoagulants were ceased. I clotted and had a cardiac arrest - twice.
Science is a miracle - it is fabulous and I love it. But I am more than a chemical reaction - I am more than a proven theory. I am unique so what science says is right for me may kill you...
As for the claims of being "wrong" for choosing to not vaccinate. If you are the judge of that then I am wrong. But my love you would walk a very long way to find a Mother who has cried the tears of confusion, pain, conflict and worry than I... (over this issue)
It might be a "good" thing to remember that families and individuals don't choose not to vaccinate because they are ignorant. They choose to not vaccinate because they have concerns, intuition,family histories...
Don't make the burden of these choices any heavier by labelling those that feel, think & have differing knowledge than you as wrong.
We are all struggling to be the best parents we can & to make great decisions for our kids.
Last edited by Inanna; December 11th, 2009 at 11:19 AM.
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Inanna, I truly feel your emotions in every word you write and thank you for sharing so much of your family's story with us. I also fully and completely recognise (and so do good health professionals) the magical intuition of mothers, they just *know* when something is right and when something is wrong with or for their children.
Yes, I know Science is not perfect, there will always be risk, but I truly believe it's the best we've got. I think making decisions based on anecdotal evidence doesn't offer us any more protection from that danger at all.
I understand what you are saying - and as always you state your opinion kindly and gently.
I agree that science is wonderful & you are right tis the best we have right now. However, whilst theey are certainly in the minority there are some practitioners of western medicine who also are cautious. Because they have personally experienced the issues that some of us have with vaccination.
I also concede that for the general populus probably immunisation will have no harmful affects. However, the issue I have is that you don't know who the general is and who the miniority is until it's done.
I am no quack - & I don't make big decisions lightly so it's been a difficult journey for me!
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:yeahthat:
Absolutely these probably are also causative factors to many of the ailments that children face. One of them perhaps being ASD,
The reason why vaccination has been linked is to the large behavioural shift that occurs with some children who then go on to have an ASD diagnosis. Because large numbers of parents cried out with suspicion. This was quickly quashed by the scientists...
For every study that appears to discount the link the suspicion is still there! Why? Perhaps because there is an unfound link. Perhaps because people want an answer... However, we as a society, as a community would be gravely amiss just to say: "no way"!
Because that type of reaction discounts the thousands who have had adverse reactions to vaccination and then been diagnosed with ASD. The thousands who had marked behavioural changes post vaccination.
The assault of that injection on a newborns immune system must be massive. Injecting into that new little body a synthetic form of an illness - it's risky business... Yes, it is risky business not to also. That is an absolute truth.
Depending on how you've been bitten, what you've studied & the experiences you have you will see this differently.
Back to the environmental factors though quoted by Epacris... It could be this - this could be the reason. However, that does not make sense of the large number of children/babies who have severe and immediate reaction to vaccination who develop ASD...
History is full of examples of these links being made in folk literature to various illnesses etc & finally science being able to understand why.
A paediatrician I spoke to recently about this said: "I would be a fool to say there is no link between immunisation and autisim" he went on to say somthing to the effect of: there are too many reports, too many people claiming a link - what we do know is that more children are not affected.
That to me says it. However, how the hell do you know if you're child is going to be affected until it is... You don't. I didn't. So I chose no for my others. It still creates unrest for me as I also see the benefits of immunisation.
I just couldn't with all conscious call those who do wrong and those who do right. It is not that simple.
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I just vote for more investment in research! research that works towards creating vaccines that carry as little risk as possible and research that then questions that research! that's what it's all about imo!
There is a need for hard raw data collection as well as research that questions it. Quantitative/qualitative research approaches are also about interpretation of results. To infer that it is 'fact' simply because it is 'raw data' is flawed. That is why we also need 'literature reviews' and theoretical approaches to any study (and no, it is NOT a version of 'professional chinese whispers', which is just offensive btw).
And even after the whole Lancet-gate () fiasco where Wakefield et al had to make retractions and the like of their conclusions, there still remains, even in peer-reviewed medical journals caution in applying any blanket statement that the MMR has/has no link to autism.
For example, in 2002, the Journal of Clinical Pathology published an article that described this difficult issue (in response to Wakefield's latest publication). The authors stated: "that reliable epidemiologists are content that there is no significant association between MMR and either autism or bowel inflammatory conditions. However, epidemiology is a pretty blunt tool and the studies done do not rule out the possibility that there may be “at risk” groups where a real link between MMR and autism/bowel inflammatory conditions exists." (Morris A and Aldulaimi D 2002. 'New evidence for a viral pathogenic mechanism for new variant inflammatory bowel disease and development disorder?', Journal of Clinical Pathology Vol. 55(2):83.
I think, IMHO that if I had a familial link to autism or the like it would be the 'yeah but' that would have me questioning, and in most cases for people where there's doubt there's no doubt.
In our case, our daughter is vaccinated with a delay schedule on the MMR. We did this based on our own summations and that has given us peace of mind. So at the age of 4, like the rest of her peers that are getting their boosters, she will have her first. And trust me, just because we made that decision doesnt mean that we have stopped reading or maintaining an interest in current vaccination trends as a whole. I want the best for my child, like we all do and I am beating a path that feels right for us.
Last edited by Cassius2; December 11th, 2009 at 01:08 PM.
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Thank you Saram.
I think that sums it up , it's what I am seeing in this thread, there are some very well considered opinions here & I can see the POV of most of you & where you are coming from.
yep... I'm with you on that one.
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This is an emotive subject - one close to the hearts of those debating from either side of the fence (or hovering on it).
I think it's timely to remind everyone that whilst we welcome differing opinions, it is always not acceptable to disparage another parent's choices.
This can be an informative discussion - please ensure you think before you post, and don't criticise what someone else has chosen in the best interests of their child. We all want what's best for our kids, and interactions like this can help us decide what is best.
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I've just read this thread... it's very interesting and just want to thank everyone for their contributions. I really find it fascinating to hear so may diverse ideas.
Speaking for myself maybe I am a bit of a fence sitter. I generally have faith in medical science... although I don't tend to follow advice without questioning it and using my intuition as Inanna importantly mentioned.
I see a parallel argument to the vax/autism debate and why I have choosen to avoid red meat proteins. I am always being told that eating red meat is good for you... "we are meant to eat it" etc. I agree that it doesn't seem to harm the majority of the popluation. But increasingly i am hearing of people who have recently been diagnosed with an inability to process some animal proteins and intuitively i feel that i might be on that spectrum. Mention it to my GP and I am laughed out the door. But i know my own body. To justify my decision i have mentioned ethics... which at least tends to stops people rallying against me... it's more plausible IYKWIM than trying to explain that when I ate red meat I didn't feel right. It was hard as a 15yo to put into words how I was feeling.
I have respect for science and medicine... the topics fascinate me. But I know that if I had failed to listen to my intuitive voice on many occassions my life would be the poorer for it.
Special mention to Paradise's post too... I also agree that for some people on the autism spectrum it must be hard to hear how tradgic it is to be "them".... in a similar way that Down sufferers often struggle to hear reports of women terminating Down pregnancies (no judgement on my behalf BTW).it's a very sensitive issue indeed. I just thought Paradise's point was being a bit over looked.
Thanyou everyone for your empassioned posts... this is the type of discussion that makes BB so valuable.
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