Why not vaccinate?

[Dedicated Doula Gillian]

Lulu - could we be then setting ourselves and future generations up to fail as we battle on to fight off diseases we naturally/normally wouldn't have got if we just hadn't vaccinated.
Like I've said before it's a tricky situation. We want to protect our children but do we really know ALL the risks. Wouldn't homeopathic rememdies be better as it doesn't get run through other "creatures" proteins/organs?

We can still then "immunise" naturally but without the risk of damaging our own DNA...
It will still acheive the same goal surely...? A "protected" / a nation with the immunity to all these diseases?

Unless there are other motives.
I feel all the options should be made more clearly and be more readily available to pregnant and new moms and as I've said let it be a personal choice and not one where people are fighting against each other but for the same outcome/cause... happy healthy children and future generations.

[Trillian]

Just about the whole 'you don't vacc but think vaccing 3rd world kids is OK issue' I admit that I did struggle with that. I even started a thread about it in the Ethical and Aware living forum because I buy Sunrice rice to support Australian rice farmers, but they have started putting on the packets that a percentage goes to UNICEF to help fund their vaccination program in the Pacific Islands. Now I came to the conclusion that these kids really do need to be vaccinated because by and large they are isolated from the rest of the world, so they wouldn't have a lot of 'mainstream' diseases like measles, chicken pox and the like but the world is becomming smaller and smaller in terms of tourism, so someone entering these counties, that for all intents and purposes is immune, could still be a carrier and the fallout of these illnesses being brought into these countries in this way is just unthinkable. It would be a total devastation not unlike when nations were settled centuries ago and brought with them their smallpox and typhoids etc and wiped out entire populations of native people. Sure it may not be on that scale as they do have access to some health care but for most it would mean the end.

So it's not hypocritical to want to protect people who have absolutely zero defenses against these illnesses because they are the ones who will die because for the simple reason that 1 they have no previously been exposed to it and 2 because the conditions that they live in mean that disease is already rampant so their immune systems are fighting 10 times harder than ours are every single day of their lives just so they are able to deal with the day to day living conditions.

And no one answered my question from a few pages ago. Does anyone who does vaccinated have their children or themselves tested to see if they do have immunity or not? Because it is not failsafe to believe that having a vaccination alone will give you coverage. like was mentioned earlier, vaccinations only have a 60% success rate (I think?) so how do you know that your children are not in the 40% who it didn't work for? You cannot assume that because your child is vaccinated that they can not possibly be potential carriers of disease.

[Inanna]

Trill the assumption is just made that the titres are high enough to provide immunity. I don't think docs would test for immunity simply due to the cost!
I would like to know the rate of successful immunisation though. As every single child I know that has had Chicken Pox has been imunised! In my daughters class at school out of 21 children only 5 are immunised. 3 of those 5 had CP a few months ago - none of the unimunised ones did!

So maybe the CP vax isn't very successful at sero conversion?

[Just Me]

I agree vaccinations aren't failsafe. I have made my mind up about what I want to do and I think the issues have been discussed over and over again in this thread so I am not going to go into all that.

I think what I am getting from all of this and an important message for EVERYONE (vaccinated or not) is that if your kids are sick, keep them at home. Probably not the purpose of the original post but a very valid message for everyone. I think this is probably more community minded than vaccinating or not.

Interesting discussion which has made me think but at the end of the day, I am still very happy with the decision that I have made

[Inanna]

Very very wise TG. I agree that we would all be healthier if everyone kept themselves and their kids isolated when they have a runny nose, sore belly etc etc etc.

[Trillian]

Well I guess that's the issue then Deb, everyone should just treat themselves as if they are unvaccinated because they can't really prove otherwise can they? And that if/when they did get one of these illnesses then they should just stay home because surely that would be more of a social responsibility than by merely having the vaccination in the first place? And how would you know that you not getting an illness is because of the vaccination or because you have a kick-ass immune system in the first place? I know my immune system works 10 times harder than other peoples because I have psoriasis, which is an autoimmune disease and it wasn't until I started doing a bit of research into it that I realised that this is why I never get sick. It wasn't till I started immunosuppressants to treat the psoriasis that I got the flu twice in a month plus various other gastro bugs as well as hayfever being a total PITA this year for me. And speaking with other psoriasis sufferers on a site I frequent they all don't get sick either except for when taking immunosupressants.

[Inanna]

I came up against this when I had Immy. I had a friend (THE friend!!) who immunised all her kids for evrything there was an immunisation for. She would come around and say: DS has a cold but it's only a cold it won't hurt"! She was so certain that her kids wouldn't have anything too serious (her measure of serious) as they were immunised. Now, a cold was enough to put Immy in hospital and in fact is what caused her respiratory arrest.

She is one of those that her kids have runny noses and they are at school, holding other peoples babies etc etc. They all got CP. They all got Measles. They all get everything that is going around...

[Lolli]

Lulu hun I definitely don't think you,or anyone else who has posted here, is stupid. We've all weighed up the risks and done our research (hopefully beyond the first page of Google) and make the desicion we think is best, with all our mitigating personal factors thrown in. There can't really be a right or wrong here, because there are so many variables- like daycare, workplaces, history of autism. As long as people have made their desicion off their won backs, rather than blindly jabbing kids because the gp says so, I don't think we can ask for any more than that

And definitley agreeing with JM- sick kids (or adults) shouldn'tbe out in public, spreading germs. I think the perception of vaccination meaning your kids are bulletproof needs to change- that's what I was saying earlier about using 'vaccination' rather than 'immunisation'. It seems that with all the medical 'cures' we have floating around these days, people forget that the first defences are simple things- staying home if you're sick, covering your mouth when you cough, washing your hands frequently, etc, etc...

[krysalyss]

I have been lurking for a while but I had to reply to the 3rd world comment

I come from the POV of a someone who does not fully vaccinate - myself or my DS. If I don't choose vaccinations for my child then why would I support vaccinations for 3rd world children? Because I support their right to have a choice of using vaccinations. I support their right to have access to the same medicines (preventative or treatment) that we have here. That is why I support vaccination programs in less developed countries. I also support their right to have access to vaccines and still choose not to use them.

[~mamaspice~]

I think vaccination is an individual decision and personally I'm pro. To me, the risk of an adverse reaction to a vaccine is less than the risks associated with my child getting one of the dreaded diseases. I must admit I was a little unsure about the MMR but when I researched it I found it can be a trigger to children who are already susseptable to autism, but the autism can also be triggered if that child gets a virus or if the mother has had a virus during pregnancy.
The clincher on being pro vax for me was someone I know birthing a perfectly healthy baby who never made it home from hospital because he contracted pertusis (whooping cough) obviously by an unvaccinated care giver or family member whilst in hospital and the poor little man never made it out the front door of the hospital. This was not many years ago either.

And as for sick kids staying home, my story above clearly indicates that so should sick adults. But so many people in this day and age just don't stop, take a few pain killers and soldier on. Thus spreading disease and putting our children and ourselves at risk. In saying this though, most people are contageous during the incubation period when they do not even know they have a virus/disease so the damage can already be done. It's usually too late by the time the temp or the runny nose appears. Just another reason why Vaccination is peace of mind for me. But like I said JMO.

[amber]

Can i throw a spanner in the works here...
Now i have NO facts on what I'm about to say but it's something that has been bugging me...
We all know about the swineflu and birdflu issues which have been in the news recently and over the years...
Could we be opening ourselves up to animal diseases because we are now injecting ourselves with vacines that have been processed using animal proteins/parts...

Is our DNA/RNA being damaged/mutating/splicing and joining with the DNA/RNA of animals used in the vaccines and hence putting us at risk to these "new" viruses from animals?

Just food for thought?

Just as an aside, the transfer of disease from animals to humans has been around for a really long time, the Bubonic plague was actually transferred from rats to humans way back then so it's not a new thing.
The influenza viruses at the moment (swine and bird flu etc) are just normal strains of influenza (but have a few different virulence factors which makes them more dangerous) that have mutated and then transferred back to us

I have to say, I am pro vax but if I had been through or seen any of the things some of the ladies have I am almost positive I would not vaccinate.
And that is despite my medical science education!

[Lulu]

But the clincher for me was someone I know birthing a perfectly healthy baby who never made it home from hospital because he contracted pertusis (whooping cough) obviously by an unvaccinated care giver or family member whilst in hospital and the poor little man never made it out the front door of the hospital. This was not many years ago either.

Mara, as been said and agreed on often vaccination does not mean you cannot catch whooping cough. There is no reason to believe this person was unvaccinated, in fact it may well have been the case they WERE vacc'd and felt they were safe.
Despite very high vacc statuses in particular countries there are still epidemics of same.

[Lolli]

Actually, that's been bothering me for a while Lulu. there is currently an epidemic of whooping cough (in NSW? or Australia wide? can't remember). It's being informally blamed on 'so many people not vaccinating'. But are vaccinations level are at about 90%, and I imagine the number of people who have got their booster shots has increased, due to a campaign of awareness for parents and granparents.

And yet we still have an epidemic, that's been going on for at least a year now, possibly 18 months if my memory serves me correctly I'm sure I'm missing something here, because that just doesn't add up. Another one of my reservations about vaccinations (yep, for someone who vaccinates, I have a stack of fears and unanswered questions).

[~Saram~]

I do know the sprays used on bananas to control pests have formaldehyde and so therefore commercial bananans have a higher concentration.

Yes i noticed a lot of the links in banana and formaldahyde were about the spraying of a pesticide and use preserving the leaves for making textiles and I agree that formldahyde is a byproduct of cycles in most living things but to say that a banana has that much in it - seems a stretch? I mean a banana is not a big fruit??? So just wondering where it was originally touted. I did find what I thought was the first instance where a "scientist" spoke to media in rebutal of the vax cause autism claim of Jim Carey and wife where the "scientist" stated that a banana had 1/20th what was in the vaccines to age 6 but I have also come across many instances where scientitst and lay people use interesting and twisted little facts such as these to make a point.

I also found links to formaldahyde in ethonol ripened fruit and this make more sense to me as formaldahyde is part of the menthanol cycle so perhaps this is where the stats were coming from??? The reason I am wondering is my son and my nephew are both on the austic spectrum and both his mum and I have seperately realised that our boys eating bananas, particularly overripe banans contributes greatly to their autistic traits. I assumes this was due to an amine sensitivity (see fed up by sue dengate on food additives and naturally occuring food chemicals) but perhaps there is more to it???

Either way I am all for chemical free living and organic vegies all the way!!!

On the case of quarantining - OMG yes - lets spead that message!!! recently here we had a measles outbreak (interesting aside 98% vac rate in my town and we had one of the worst measles outbreaks in Australia) Anyway DD not immunised we avoided going out JIC. Did go to the shopping centre to buy food as one must do and here is a family (mum and dad and DD) with DD in a shopping trolley covered in measles rash, eyes blood shot looking like death warmed up. I walked in took one look at her and ran screaming for the car! Made me soooo mad! yes it is my choice not to vaccinate but as many have said just because one is vaccnated does not mean you have 100% coverage, particulalry during an outbreak where they may be strain differences - not to mention the poor little darling needed to be at home resting!

[~mamaspice~]

Mara, as been said and agreed on often vaccination does not mean you cannot catch whooping cough. There is no reason to believe this person was unvaccinated, in fact it may well have been the case they WERE vacc'd and felt they were safe.
Despite very high vacc statuses in particular countries there are still epidemics of same.

I have read that pertusis immunisation or natural infection does not guarantee immunity - particularly after 5 years. I guess that's why health care workers need to have periodic immunology BT's to check immunity status.

[Lolli]

Saram I had a mum at the playground the other day showing off her daughters rash on her belly, asking people if they thought they knew what it was *shudders*. Irresponsible.

Just to answer Trillian's question, I actually asked my gp about testing ds's immuntiy to rubella before vaccinating him, seeing as he'd already had it. he looked at my like I was hysterical and asked if I really wanted to subject my one year old to a blood test as well as a needle (good point, considering the MMR is an all in one). It's never occurred to me ask to see if he is immune to the things he was vaccinated against. I keep very firmly in mind that, vaccinated or not, you still need to be very careful. TBH, I don't vaccinate in the hope that my child won't catch the illness at all, because I know that is not the way it works, just in the hope that if they do catch it it will be a much milder dose than if they were not vaccinated. I think it's because in those years working at the hospital, I saw a lot of kids who were suffering dreadfully from the effects of chicken pox, measles, whooping cough. And only one that had had a severe reaction to an immunisation. Obviously that's only from my perspective- I wasn't medical staff, and had no knowledge of who had what or how severely (or if they were vaccinated ) apart from what i heard off the kids and parents, so don't think I'm offering this as something scientific or factual. But it did effect me enough to want to vaccinate, in the same way that the personal experiences of others may have efffected them enough to not want to vaccinate (iykwim, that was a bit of a ramble!)

[Just Me]

LR - I could be wrong ... so anybody who knows more please feel free to correct me (I won't be offended ) ... but I thought the whooping cough outbreak wasn't to do with kids not being immunised - more to do with adults believing that they were immune because they had the vax as kids. Recent studies have shown the vaccine is not effective all through adulthood and needs to be repeated in adults in order for them to be covered. This is not solid fact, I read it somewhere and I thought that is why they are trying to encourage adults to be vaccinated again. DH and I got the free vaccine after DD2 was born and have encouraged all our family to fork out the $40 and go and be vaccinated.

Saram - Was there a measles outbreak here? Glad I missed out on that one! I didn't even know! I know that we had one of the largest outbreaks of swine flu in the country. I got it while I was pg and so did DH and the kids. We didn't go anywhere for weeks because I didn't want to be exposed to it. I went for a clinic checkup at the hospital and got it from someone in the waiting room. Ironically on the same appointment the ob told me not to go anywhere if I could help it because I was particularly at risk of contracting it.

We have had a horrible season for catching EVERYTHING going around and have literally been sick every second week with something new. Everytime we have gotten sick I can point to someone who was at the one social occassion that we managed to make it to between illnesses, that had exactly the same symptoms. I really don't get why people take their sick kids out - especially around other kids! For families with only one kid, it might not be that bad, but by the time all my kids get it and recover, it can be 3 weeks of us not going anywhere. It has been a very lonely 7 months and probably could be avoided if people are socially responsible and STAY HOME when they are sick!

Sorry - just a bit off the topic!

[~mamaspice~]

LR - I could be wrong ... so anybody who knows more please feel free to correct me (I won't be offended ) ... but I thought the whooping cough outbreak wasn't to do with kids not being immunised - more to do with adults believing that they were immune because they had the vax as kids. Recent studies have shown the vaccine is not effective all through adulthood and needs to be repeated in adults in order for them to be covered. This is not solid fact, I read it somewhere and I thought that is why they are trying to encourage adults to be vaccinated again. DH and I got the free vaccine after DD2 was born and have encouraged all our family to fork out the $40 and go and be vaccinated.

Saram - Was there a measles outbreak here? Glad I missed out on that one! I didn't even know! I know that we had one of the largest outbreaks of swine flu in the country. I got it while I was pg and so did DH and the kids. We didn't go anywhere for weeks because I didn't want to be exposed to it. I went for a clinic checkup at the hospital and got it from someone in the waiting room. Ironically on the same appointment the ob told me not to go anywhere if I could help it because I was particularly at risk of contracting it.

We have had a horrible season for catching EVERYTHING going around and have literally been sick every second week with something new. Everytime we have gotten sick I can point to someone who was at the one social occassion that we managed to make it to between illnesses, that had exactly the same symptoms. I really don't get why people take their sick kids out - especially around other kids! For families with only one kid, it might not be that bad, but by the time all my kids get it and recover, it can be 3 weeks of us not going anywhere. It has been a very lonely 7 months and probably could be avoided if people are socially responsible and STAY HOME when they are sick!

Sorry - just a bit off the topic!

JustMe, I've read that the whooping cough Vax doesnt guarantee immunity after 5 years so if a person wanted to make sure they stayed immune they'd have to get revaccinated or have a BT to check their immunology status. Thats prob why the Govt. is promoting new parents being revaccinated because even if they were vacinated previously as a child it could not be ineffective