just an little "unnecessary intervention" vent

[briggsy's girl]

Lulu - i'm not taking this overly personally - i've simply made a point of being someone to say (in more than JUST this thread) that we need to be careful how things are worded to ensure that people googling (and yes, these threads show up in google) are getting a balanced argument. and it seems i am the only one prepared to step up and say something against the grain


Trillian - if you read my posts, i have acknowledged that saying induction due to a large baby at 30 weeks is a crock. i did though also take into account that we don't KNOW the circumstances surrounding the persons first birth or her discussions with her care providers that lead to that decision. My SIL had a VERY traumatic second birth in which her son got stuck in the birth canal and, during emergency c/s they had to have two Ob's work on her - one to push him out of the birth canal and one to remove him through the c/s incision. her third child was a planned c/s. partially due to the size of her babies (number 3 was, by LMP, 4 weeks early, by scan 3 weeks), partially due to the fact that the damage done by number 2. number 3 was 7pound plus and came as a result of spontaneous labour starting and c/s being performed. there are circumstances where it IS appropriate to schedule a c/s in advance! as Rory acknowledged after she spoke to her hubby, she simply doesn't know the whole story.

i am just trying to be the ONE person brave enough to stand against the anti-intervention tone of this thread in case someone is reading that simply hasn't had enough chance to research for themselves.

yes, you should be advised about what is happening at every point - but some responsibility has to fall on you to educate yourself. this is not having a dig at anyone it's just a fact. there is thread after thread about the lack of funding for midwifery led care and yet an expectation is put on an already overly stretched resource to "fully educate" people at the end of their pregnancy about something they have had months to inform themselves about.

i will now step out of this thread as it appears offering any counter argument isn't appreciated - even when the OP has HERSELF acknowledged that they didn't know the full story behind the comment that triggered her vent. it isn't only me that is thinking this (if it was, i wouldn't have received more than one lot of rep points thanking me for stepping in) - i'm just the person who has been brave enough to say something.

for any first timers reading this thread - please, educate YOURSELF on your options. don't just take the word of any medical professional - on ANYTHING. you wouldn't allow someone to perform unnecessary surgery on any other part of you without knowing why and understanding so please take the time to educate yourself on your birth options. if you're not getting the answers you need from your care provider, push them to give you the answers. in no other facet of your life do you hand yourself over with no question to the consequences, why should birth be any different? if something doesn't make sense ASK ASK ASK. Ask the same question 10 times if you need to. get a second opinion if you need to. but always remember - the decision to follow their suggestions is entirely YOURS - don't allow yourself to feel judged by others if you choose to do something they may not agree with

[Lulu]

This was a vent thread about crappy advice. No obs bashing at all, in fact everyone has pointed that fact out.

Crappy advice has been given, it's ok to vent about that isn't it? I'm not sure what is 'brave' about offering a counter to a point that doesn't exist, in a venting thread. It's about as brave as going into the c/s support thread and banging on about the dangers of the theatre.

[Trillian]

I took the orginal vent as one of just a long line of misinformation kwim? And just more of a frustration at hearing the same old worn out myths over and over again. Not everyone does research the net or join a web forum to educate themselves. Many people will rely on the experiences of family and friends when making their own decisions about it and you just know that when you hear something like that said, that someone is going to take that as gospel simply because the person saying it was told that by a Dr .

[Roryrory]

yes, being told at 30 weeks that you'll need to be induced because you're likely to have a large baby again is a crock - however, we don't KNOW what the context of the conversation was. we dont KNOW how traumatic the initial birth was for the mother. was don't KNOW why the decision to induce early was made. yes, it's sad. but we don't KNOW and can't judge.

BG I agree with you here a little - my initial vent was very generalised and I tried to point out in a later post that there are often extenuating circumstances that need to be taken into account. But....

I took the orginal vent as one of just a long line of misinformation kwim? And just more of a frustration at hearing the same old worn out myths over and over again.

Trillian you hit the nail on the head. I was more having a general winge about how almost every pregnant woman or woman who has birthed who I talk to seems to say similar things. Like "I tore last time so this time I have having a c/s" or "my sister and mum had c/sections so I expect one myself" or "Last time I was administered an epidural right away because my baby was posterior". You have got to wonder how many women who have "extenuating circumstances" are in that situation because of a lack of info/awareness, rather than truly unusual or unavoidable medical complications.

So I guess my two cents after the last two pages of posts is - how many traumatic births where the women and babies are saved by intervention were actually precipitated by unwarranted intervention in the first place? Sadly, because so many women who endure birth trauma seem to only find solace in assurances from their doctors that they "would have both died" but for the intervention itself, I doubt we will ever truly know the answer to this question. Because if we look for the answer we risk going to places where many women dare not look (and by this I don't mean that we should be looking to blame women themselves!)

(And BG while I know you have bowed out of this post I do applaud your having put forward a different POV)

[Tegam]

So I guess my two cents after the last two pages of posts is - how many traumatic births where the women and babies are saved by intervention were actually precipitated by unwarranted intervention in the first place? Sadly, because so many women who endure birth trauma seem to only find solace in assurances from their doctors that they "would have both died" but for the intervention itself, I doubt we will ever truly know the answer to this question. Because if we look for the answer we risk going to places where many women dare not look (and by this I don't mean that we should be looking to blame women themselves!)

well said!



but does the answer lie in the fact that whilst intervention has sky rocketed in the past 20 years child and maternal death has stayed the same? if all this intervention was needed then wouldnt the rates have dropped????

[Patooties]

I will admit to having given BG rep points with regards to her posts. It's not that i wasn't brave enough to say anything, more that BG is able to voice her opinion, and one that I agree with, more eloquently than I. Thanks BG. I understood exactly where you are coming from.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I had VERY medicinalised care for DS - something that I didn't want, but DH pushed all the way. I didn't get a say because he DID decide what was going to happen to me - then wussed out when he saw what those evil people did to me. Not his fault. Oh no. He just didn't want me to give birth.

I had constant measurements - too big baby and too small bump. Told off for both.

I was even told off for being "too relaxed" - pregnancy is, of course, a state of stress and we all NEED to give ourselves pre-eclampsia: I'm sure the midwives would have raised my blood pressure if they could. Good thing I knew enough to ignore them.

Pregnancy, 99% of the time, is not an illness. There are times you need the doctor but in most pregnancies you could go from conception to birth all by yourself, without dates, without bullies, without being told what to do.

BG, you do have a pregnancy-related illness that is not in any way your fault. And you're doing the right thing discussing with your carers (you seem to be getting care, wonders never cease) what is going to happen that is the best thing for you and the baby. But I'll be honest, I got no discussion whatsoever.

As for "growing balls the second time around." What are you thinking? That I just lie there and say "chop me up without permission please?" That I didn't fight tooth and nail? Just shut up before I get really upset about that. Just because I now have a REASON not to tell DH about any pregnancy or labour doesn't mean I did the wrong thing by letting him know about Liebling. He needed a chance to fail, don't anyone dare tell me that I should ignore my child's father on a whim and not concrete evidence.