For those who can't/couldn't breast-feed.....

[dragonphoenix]

Hi all.

I've been inspired to think about this question after reading something that was posted over at Facebook, the quote about coke/pepsi.....

I understand that there are mums out there who can't/couldn't bf, and I asked this question as a comment.
So to all those mums:
On what basis did you come to the conclusion that you were unable to bf, that you "had no choice"? Was it diagnosed by a Dr/Midwife/Lactation Consultant (trained & qualified)?
On what basis was that diagnosis/decision made?

Please understand that I am asking this question merely to understand the situation, and I am not trying to make some cheap snipe at formula-fed babes and their mums, or implying that you are somehow inferior or uncaring.

As I posted on FB, Chinese Medicine (CM) has recognised the phenomenon of "inability to breast-feed" as a known pathology. This condition is written about both in gynaecological texts and paediatric texts that stretch over the whole history of CM (somewhere close to 2000 years). As a known 'pathology', it therefore also had treatments that included herbal medicines, massage, acupuncture & moxibustion, and dietary therapy (and I believe there may also be some Qigong exercises focussing on this also).

I am curious to hear from those mums who COULDN"T bf - answering the above questions, and also "did you try CM approaches to the problem before going straight to formula or other methods; if so did they work, what were they, etc? If not, why not? Were you aware that CM could help you in that situation? If the same situation came up, would you try CM?

Also, to all those professionals (Midwives, qualified lactation consultants, Drs): do you know how CM can help in these situations? What is the research/evidence out there about the INABILITY to bf? What is the current consensus? What methods/treatments are commonly employed? etc....

I would like to hear from those mums who had the situation come about that they "had no choice" but to use Formula (read= could not breast feed), and I would like to hear from professionals in the field.

I am willing to share what I know about this stuff, but please remember that the core principle in CM is treat the individual, not the condition, so there is never a 'one-size-fits-all' treatment for these things.

Cheers!

[~clover~]

I did try to breast feed my girls. But after 6 weeks of pain with DD1 it was all too much. I was only 18 & didn't know how to get the support to keep going. I wanted to, but none of my friends or family knew anything about it, so couldn't help me. I asked my MCHN about the pain, apparently attatchment was perfect. No other suggestions. No offer of the advice of a LC or the ABA. Nothing. DD2 was 4 weeks & after thrush & cracks I just figured I was useless & gave up. Again not knowing where to go for support.
With DS I told my MCHN I would not give up. She rang the LC for me & that, at 6 weeks, was my tuning point.
I do feel ripped off that I was never offered any extra support, or even phone numbers at the start.

[Stevie]

For me i got mastitis around 1-2 weeks bfing, i took some meds (and coincidence maybe?) i developed a supply issue in my left breast, and my right breast was making 90% of the milk (a guess really lol) (also i did go to a LC when DD was about 2and a half months but i think it was too far gone and maybe someone where deep inside me i was done with the stress and a small part of me wanted to stop? i dont kow) over time i was not making enough milk and i had to supplement with formula, which is just a vicious cycle coz over time my milk was less and less (and i tried many many ways to increasemy suplly) at a bout 4 months i started thinking maybe our bfing journey was coming to an end, i also was sarted work when DD was 6 months so at 4.5 months i weaned her onto formula. it was one of the hardest decisions i had to make. i still regret it but i tried to darn hard and i ask anyone to tell me i didnt!! But i learnt alot and now i know what not to do and what to do!! Hopefully next time round i will be much more prepared. No one told me breast feeding is hard work.

[Rach75]

i replied on fb but here's what i said again

peter with my first son, I had heaps of colustrum the night before he was
born, but nothing at all not a drop after, we tried for 4 days pumping attaching everything the hopsital could think of I had not one drop, he was
FF in SC then these feeds were dropped and after 2 days of nothing but
trying me he was getting sick...with my 2nd son I did ... See Moreeverything I could
think of I had milk if I expressed the problem was I developed severe odema, and needed to go on medication which was not good for b/f mums I had to
decide if my health was more important than b/f and yes it was if my health problems prevented me caring for a 3 year old and a newborn then that had to
be the priority....also alternative therapys would be great unfortunalty I
live in a small country mining town in QLD, the nearest specialists are 2
hrs away...I was unable to find a altenative therepasit when TTC that was closer than 4-5hrs away...so sometimes there aren't any other alternatives

[Tinks]

I couldn't BF because I didn't produce any milk. My baby didn't sleep and screamed for days, the MW kept telling me to persevere and that by the 3-4th day my milk would come in. It didn't. I made the decision to FF after the midwife gave my starving son a bottle of formula and he stopped crying instantly and slept! I went home from hospital with a stack of formula and a perfect baby.

I didn't get and milk 2nd time around either but 3rd time I got a small amount in 1 breast but by that time I was already FF her so didn't 'bother' trying to BF.

[butterfly_warrior]

I didn't get any medical diagnosis, but I suspect there is an underlying problem that is as yet undiagnosed. My breasts did not increase in size at all during my pregnancy, and I never had any colostrum leaks before birth.

I gave birth prematurely at 36 weeks - to a baby that couldn't suck (low blood sugars, and very weak suck reflex), couldn't attach... I was in hospital with him for 10 days. During that time I pumped constantly - and after 10 days at each session on the pump I would be lucky to get barely 2mL of colostrum each time. Day 10 and it was still just colostrum and my milk had not come in.

We came home - and I continued to pump, but it all became too much for me. When there was someone else to make up the bottles and clean everything for me, I could cope, but when I had to do everything - not happening.

I lasted a few more days and then gave it away and went with full-time formula feeding.

When my son was 8 weeks old I had to start taking a medication to hopefully keep my arthritis under control and allow me to care for my son in other ways. It's a dangerous medication - one that cannot even be handled by pregnant or breastfeeding women, so even if I had been able to, I would have needed to stop.

When there's no milk, how do you feed? We tried medications to increase my supply, but they just didn't do enough quickly enough to make any difference.

BW

[ss_storm]

I actually felt a bit offended by that post on FB...maybe FF isn't ideal, but you know I'd rather feed my DD formula than have her starve! No need to make mums that FF any worse about that decision.

DD just never got the hang of latching on and sucking properly, we got little to no support from the hospital in helping me to try and BF her. A couple of the midwives were great, but it wasn't consistent. Living rurally there wasn't much opportunity to see a lactation specialist, and at the time I was much happier using formula than persisting with a screaming hungry baby trying to get her to latch on and feed. It was stressing me out and DD was distressed, so was much better for both of us to go down the FF route than trying to struggle on alone attempting to BF. I did try and express for a few weeks but realised I couldn't go on doing it as it was all just getting too overwhelming trying to get used to being a mum and looking after a newborn as well as trying to BF/express and I wasn't getting much milk out anyway.

So for us I'm happy we went down the FF path, I think it created a closer bond than fighting each other trying to BF just for the sake of BF.

[~breeze~]

With DD not milk came out... Drs figured my milk ducts must have been damaged during my breast reduction 2 yrs earlier.
With DS I had NO support. I was told to feed him after he was born, the midwife left the room, came back & asked how I went. I told her he wouldnt attatch & I couldnt feed DD when she was born maybe this would be the same. She said probably & stuck him on formula. I got home, day 5 I noticed I was leaking from my nipples. Super excited I tried to attatch DS, he wouldnt attatch. I got a breast pump & got out a fair amount of collustrum. Gave that to him in the bottle. I tried to BF for about 6 weeks but ended up with an infection one of my nipples which I needed AB's for. My XH was very much against me BFing (long selfish story on his part) So I gave in.
If I ever have a 3rd baby I WILL be BFing

[~clover~]

I did repost the status, but I did make it clear under it why I did. I know people who couldn't BF for medical reasons. My aunt couldn't as she had to get straight back on her epilepsy medication after both children, a friend couldn't coz she had to have a blood transfusion after birth & was told her recovery would be too hard if her body was working to BF as well. So neither of them attempted, but had reasons.
I reposted it because I know too many people who think it's not right, or didn't consider it, coz they just aren't interested in trying it out. My reason for reposting was because some people really don't get the benifits of it. They don't know how good it can be for them & their babies if they do succeed. Some of the younger mothers think that formula is better. I have friends who think they'll be avoiding BFing, coz the baby will sleep better on formula. IMO thats a pretty silly reason to go against BFing.
I do not judge anyone who didn't, or couldn't BF. I was one of them. I just think so many people need so much more education on the subject. Even now with all the info out there.

[BellyBelly]

ss_storm, I posted this in someone elses FB thread when someone said it made her feel like shiz.

Mel didn't make you feel like ****... no-one can 'make' you feel anything. It is a hard position to be in but it's all about how we as an individual process and feel about it. One person using formula may be content in knowing they are nourishing their baby when nothing can. And others may be harboring feelings of guilt, resentment, failure... which is what makes us angry and/or lash out at others, when it is our own headspace than made us do it. *hugs* for all the mums out there. We're put into tricky positions all the time and we all deserve huge hugs and love x

Remember before you get angry/offended at others, to think where those feelings of anger come from. Anger is secondary to another feeling - always. Like you could yell and scream at your child for touching a stove. They didn't make you angry. You're angry because you're scared they will hurt themselves, or angry because you feel like they don't listen to you when you tell them over and over again not to touch it.

[Glamourcide]

DD1's birth was traumatic - she was induced and born after four hours of absolute agony, and then I bled very nearly to death within minutes of delivering the placenta. I lost so much blood I needed three transfusions and my body just shut down in an attempt to heal. I was running on no sleep, the baby screamed constantly as I had no milk, I was still bleeding profusely and extended family thought it was fine for them to just roll up and bring all their friends and spend hours passing the baby back and forth... my stress levels were through the roof.
DD1 was on the breast constantly for two out of every three hours... I was still getting no sleep. In between feeding, and during feeding, she would just scream and scream. Midwife said her attachment was 'perfect', but it was so incredibly painful I knew something had to be wrong.

Two days later, my nipples were just about falling off me - bleeding, chapped, every time DD1 came near my chest I burst into tears and shrank away from her, knowing I was about to be in immense pain again. There was still no milk. I was still bleeding, sleepless, and a midwife had the nerve to harass me because my daughter crying at 4am because she was starving was 'disturbing the other babies' in the ward. I begged her to give DD formula, she refused. I kept trying to BF. I kept failing. The next midwife gave her a bottle and took her to the nursery for the night so I could sleep, and she said DD guzzled two lots of formula and slept perfectly through the night.

On our way home from hospital, I stopped at Priceline and bought a breast pump, nipple shields, bottles and sachets of formula, intending to just get through this difficult period and then resume breastfeeding when my milk came in. It just never did. I was expressing for 30mins each side every 2.5 hours, and barely getting a drip to mix with formula to give to DD. I persisted for 6 whole weeks, and never got more than 10 or 20ml per express... I was losing even more sleep because when I SHOULD have been sleeping, I was expressing and trying to establish a supply. Nobody supported me - 'just give her formula if it's easier'. My mother (with whom DH and I were living at the time) would interrupt my attempts at BFing using a shield because someone had come over to see the new baby and mum refused to 'lose face' by telling them to call first or come back later (I was far too embarrassed to attempt BFing in front of anyone but DH until I got the hang of it - which I never did).
I had no post-natal care, the midwives who performed DD's checkups never bothered to ask, just told me to keep expressing and changed the subject. I felt they'd already judged me as not caring enough or trying hard enough.

At 6 weeks, I had a near-breakdown due to the lack of sleep and not coping well with the trauma of birth and adjusting to caring for a newborn. I fed DD1 a bottle of formula and she slept through for the first time since she'd been born. It was a sign - no more BFing. It wasn't working.

It all went uphill from there and I've never looked back. I probably *could* have succeeded had I had more support, more resources, a professional who cared enough to actually find out WHY I wasn't producing milk (I'm assuming it was stress, my body in healing mode from the birth rather than putting energy into producing milk) and help me overcome it... but I really don't mind any more. When DD2 was born after a spontaneous natural labour, my milk came in straight away and we successfully BF'd for nearly 6 months without even trying - it just worked. So I know now that I CAN BF, given the right circumstances. The odds were just not in my favour first time around and I don't mind, I've made my peace with it

FWIW re CM etc, well, it's very hard living in a regional area with no resources (I didn't even have access to Community Health nurses as the building was closed for renovations and so middies were not providing ANY services during those months, not even the typical home visits etc). DH and I don't have health cover, and very little money to spare on 'luxuries' like medical care (we see a bulk-billing doctor and now that I've lost my HCC privileges - due to being approx $4 over the threshold! - we don't usually bother to get prescriptions filled unless we're going to be much worse off without medication, kwim?) so Chinese medicine was both 'unnecessary' and unavailable to us at the time. We wouldn't have known to even look for it, really - we had no support from anybody, no resources to get information or advice


ETA: re the Pepsi v Coke analogy... well, if we were on a desert island and starving, I'd feed them KFC before letting them go hungry!!

[Kel001]

My milk never came in with DD, and we were in hospital for a week trying to establish feeding and milk supply - I tried to feed her for another 2 weeks after we got home from hospital, and she would cry and be hungry all the time. The midwife at the mum's group I attended said that I wasn't producing milk because I didn't really want to feed my baby and that I needed to attach DD all the time to encourage my milk production and stop being selfish, so I did. I sat home, rarely left the house and had DD attached all the time except when she slept (which was rare as she was hungry all the time!). By nipples were red raw and I cried nearly all the time from pain, exhaustion and hopelessness. I tried to express and after a dose of mastitis reduced the 15ml I was getting from my left breast to nil, and my right breast could only just produce 20ml a day I went back to by OBGYN and he said that I wasn't producing enough for DD, she was losing weight rapidly and that I should put her on formula as it was the best option for all of us. I intially started supplement feeding and kept trying to BF to see if anything would impove, but my breaking point came a few days after my visit to the OBGYN when one of the midwives at the new mum's group I attended made me sit and feed DD for 30mins solid after I told her about my visit to my OBGYN. She said he didn't know what he was talking about, that a man doesn't know anything about breast feeding, sat me down, attached DD and wouldn't let me give her a bottle even though she was screaming because she was hungry and I had nothing for her. Again, she told me that I wasn't producing milk because my heart wasn't in it, and I was being selfish by depriving my daughter and was looking for excuses and convenient ways to avoid having to BF. This went on for 30 minutes before I packed up and left while the midwife went to the toilet and I could 'escape'.

Needless to say the emotional wreck that called my DH was no longer his wife - it was an emotionally destroyed woman who was made to feel and think she was the biggest failure and worst mother in history. DH called the midwife to give her a serve and to date I have never gone back and never spoken to the midwife again. And I refused to let DD go to the baby clinic, all her checks, immunisations and everything have been done by our family GP and the private paediatrician since that day.

My experience is one I would never wish on anyone, but I am still an advocate for breastfeeding, and I hope to breastfeed successfully when we have another child. This doesn't change the fact that formula saved my sanity and my daughter's life, and she is the happiest toddler I could ever have imagined, and the change in her as a baby when she started formula was amazing and it was wonderful to have a happy baby who didn't cry constantly simply because she was starving and slept soundly with a full tummy. And I still had eye contact and gently stroked her face and held her close while she was bottle feeding, just as I did when I was trying to BF and DD and I are as bonded as you could imagine, despite the midwife telling me that DD wouldn't bond with me if I didn't BF.

I did what I had to do for our daughter's health and I have no regrets, and I would do it all again in a heartbeat if necessary.

[RhiChiChi]

Firstly, I just want to say to come of the mums that had such a difficult time trying to bf/establish bf & little or no support a huge *hug*

In response to your questions, my answers follow:

On what basis did you come to the conclusion that you were unable to bf, that you "had no choice"? Was it diagnosed by a Dr/Midwife/Lactation Consultant (trained & qualified)?
On what basis was that diagnosis/decision made?

I didn't really come to a conclusion that I was 'unable' to bf or that I had 'no choice'. I found bf extremely difficult & frustrating. I am a very emotionally closed person & I don't think it was until day 7 or 8 after having my DD that I actually cried b/c of how tired and distressed I was over trying to establish bf. It was my full intention to bf until DD was approx. 12 months old (or longer or shorter depending on personal circumstances) and I read alot on forums (like BB) and went to the hospitals lactation class - which IMO was not that beneficial in hindsight - too clinical and pretending to BF a doll does not lead to successful bf / bf estalishment. My gf even bought me a bf pillow & I watched my friends bf their children (my mum did not bf for long periods of time) I found attachment difficult & DD constantly falling asleep on my breast whilst only feeding for a short period of time (ie: minutes) but perservering at all hours in the morning/day/night to feed for over an hour at times so DD would settle to sleep - which she did not. The midwives suggested comp feeding with formula & the change was immediate with my DD - she looked content and slept. So, the routine was I would bf, top up with formula if she needed it (which she did) and then express to encourage my supply. This wasn't commenced until about day 5/6 after DD was born and what I did express appeared to be still colostrum & approx. 2 ml. I also ended up with mastitis in hospital, which was surprising considering I was bf & expressing. The final crunch came when a midwife sat with me one morning (approx. breakfast time) and suggested I stay in hospital longer (I was already on day 8) and continuing what I was doing or put DD onto forumla. I broke down in tears. I decided I did not have the strength (emotionally) to bf, express & comp feed so made the decision after chatting to DH to put her on formula. I was also referred to a counsellor for suspected PND - I was diagnosed with anxiety over bf establishment.

"did you try CM approaches to the problem before going straight to formula or other methods; if so did they work, what were they, etc? If not, why not? Were you aware that CM could help you in that situation? If the same situation came up, would you try CM

As answered above, I tried a combination of bf, expressing & comp feeding prior to putting DD exclusively on formula. No other methods were tried or even considered. I was not aware that CM could help. If the same situation came up, I would try alternative methods but probably not CM.

[alioops]

DD1 and DD3 never had trouble bfing. DD2 suffers from Primary Lactose Intolerance and was reacting to breastmilk. She was put on a prescription formula early on and only then began to thrive.

[entreat]

sure - you can't make some feel something, but through thoughtless (or deliberately ignorant) words & actions, you definitely set the path to a particular response. Like alluding to (or stating) that a mother is inferior or her parenting techniques are damaging because her choice is different to yours. There's not many people that could shrug that off.

Be gentle with people from that other side of the fence... your grass may be so tall & green, you can't see their story & hardships.

But as I won't know what I can and can't achieve with BF for another few weeks, I guess I'm unqualified to contribute. I will bow out right here (until next month!).

[BellyBelly]

Entreat, i dont think i did that at all, nor did i mean to. However that may be your interpretation. As i posted on FB there are some mothers who just cannot bf, and there are emotional issues like sexual abuse to consider. Just like some women need c/s some need to use this too. You misinterpret my views on this. Always has been my opinion, always post it too, to make it clear. But with bf rates as low as they are, we cant all be biologically programmed not to be able to. Sure this post is going to cause people with awful stories to react. Some still struggling with guilt or feeling inadequate due to their decision may not post. I know there are people out there though who could say they got caught up in bad info, self diagnosis etc. Ive done it. Its life, i'm happy and healthy & so are my kids.

[Just Me]

I BF DD1 until she was 4 months old. I thought we were doing really well but she had started screaming every time I went to feed her and became very larthargic. Anyway, being my first baby, I took her to weigh her every month. I weighed her at about 4 months thinking that she would be pushing the 6kg mark (she was just over 5kg when I weighed her at around 3 months). I was shocked that she was barely weighing in at 4kg. When she was born she weighed 3.8kg. At 4 months she was down to 300g over her birth weight.

I immediately went in to see the lactation consultant (there was one at the centre where I weighed my baby and she happened to be free). I had seen the lactation consultant once before when DD1 was 6w old to ensure everything was going okay because I was stressing about attachment. The lactation consultant gave me some things to try to stimulate my milk supply. DD1 continued to scream through every feed and I saw the lactation consultant again 5 days later and DD1 had lost another 100g. We talked about more things I could try and I went away and did them. When I weighed DD1 again she had lost another 50g. I didn't bother going back to the LC again, I switched to formula. DH was quite vocal about switching over to formula because he was really worried. I don't blame him. I didn't realise at the time but I look at photos now and she was tiny. DD1 gained 500g on her first week of formula. It was amazing!

I have looked long and hard at reasons to help me be more successful bfing my other babies and I think there were a number of reasons that it didn't work the first time and my milk dried up - especially since I have such great supply after birth and I never supplemented DD1's feeds. She had never had formula until the day I stopped BFing her. I went cold turkey and had no issues with engorgement or leaking so I am pretty certain I had nothing there and DD1 was starving.

The first reason I think my milk dried up was because I hated feeding in public but I am a very social person. I hated having to hide away to feed my baby, but I was very self conscious of feeding in front of others. If I was out, anywhere, once I stopped being able to express, I would feed until DD1 pulled off and assume that she was done. If she kicked up a real stink, I would bregrudgingly feed her more but I really just didn't want to be stuck on my own feeding away from all the fun. I have learned to feed in public and let it take as long as it needs to.

Even as tiny babies, all my kids have only ever fed for 15 mins tops to fill up because I have good and fast flow especially in the early days. My kids tend to drown in my milk and pull off leaving it spraying all over the place. Now it doesn't phase me because I expect it and it's okay. When DD1 was a baby, it would freak me out and added to me not enjoying the bfing experience. I know what to rexpect this time and prepared myself mentally for bfing.

I was paranoid about correct attachment. I read all that info about attachment but nothing had prepared me for feeding with big boobs. I can't hold my baby in a cradling position to feed her, I have to support my boobs with my hand or a rolled up washer and lay my baby on a pillow. It didn't look like I thought it would. They tell you that most of the areola should be in the baby's mouth. My areola was quite large so I was forever unattaching my baby because it didn't 'look right'. No-one told me to just worry about how it feels. They tell you how it should look and sound and I thought I was doing it wrong all the time when it was actually okay so I was interrupting my let down because I was always fussing because I didn't want to injure my nipples and make feeding more difficult.

I was discharged from hospital with DD1 12 hours after she was born, which was fine but the only times I had bf in hospital were in birth suite when the midwife attached her for me and again in maternity when the midwife attached her. I went home with a baby that I had never feed unassisted so I struggled through the first night until the home visiting midwife (who was also the midwife who delivered DD1) came to visit. She taught me how to attach DD1 but shocked me a bit with telling me that she didn't think I enjoyed bfing very much and asked me if I would prefer to switch to formula. I was a bit shocked that she would so quickly make that conclusion based on feeding that happened in birth suite while I was hooked up to all sorts of drips and had a canulla hanging out of my arm. It probably didn't give me a good mental start to bfing either. I hadn't expected the midwife to encourage me so strongly not to feed. That was why I ended up seeing the lactation consultant.

I am bfing DD2 still. She is 8 months old next week and it is the most successful bfing journey I have had. We are going strong and I am so proud of myself and her for what we have acheived together. I never made it this far with my other two and only this time discovered that I seem to hit the same hurdles with each baby at about the same times but it has all been smooth sailing from about 5 months onwards. I have had to make a really conscious effort to make it work for us but I am thrilled that it has paid off this time. I think my issues could have been prevented with better education about bfing, how it works and how it feels.

[cheekymonkey]

I have insufficient glandular tissue which means I suffer with a low supply that I was unable to correct with all the normal methods. I also had undiagnosed graves disease witch is an overactive thyroid. My story has been posted in the feeding difficulty debrief section but basically, given I had to comp feed with formula I had severe breast refusal I was unable to continue to do both. I was able to express 2 small feeds to bottle feed my son but he was so unsettled due to reflux that I was unable to sit on the pump 7 times a day just to get 240mls. I would be very interested in hearing how Chinease Medicine may improve my situation next time as I am extreamly passionate about breastfeeding and would give anything to have a succesful feeding journey next time around. I also saw severall LC's and the GP who all told me it just wasn't working and perhaps trying to "force" him to feed was detrimental to him and me. It is one of those problems that is rare and difficult to diagnose. None of them picked up on it but I have since spoken to another LC who feels this was the case for me due to certain characteristics I have comboned with the issues I encountered whilst breastfeeding. I feel that some people do in fact have a choice whether to FF but I feel that I absouloutly did not have a choice, the simple fact is my son was malnourised and would have died if I didn't comp feed him.