Would you use someone else's EBM??

[Lolli]

I think Liz, and trillian, have both made very valid points there. IRL, I don't know any other mother who wouldn't think I was just plain weird if i offered her my EBM for her baby. Before we can get any kind of Utopian village structure happening, women need to be more educated about the absolute goodness of BM and the somewhat dodginess of formula. Most of the women i know haven't been presented with the kind of information most of us in this discussion have- and if they have, it has been associated with the guilt of not bf'ing 'perfectly' or their milk not being 'good enough', or it's simply been overwhelmed by the mammoth amount of information that new mothers are given, the stresses a newborn baby can place on a person (and that probably comes form our lack of a supportive female communtiy as well). The only reason I know what I do about bf'ing is the research that i've taken upon myself to do, and not everyone has the time or inclination to do that. The only way for any kind of village structire to happen is for our society to reach a point where breastfeeding in the norm and formula a very last resort. Most of the mothers I know IRL would never question giving their baby formula over EBM. If i needed EBM for my baby, the only place I would feel comfortable asking for it would be on BB

Also seconding Liz's point of- wouldn't 'toddler' bm still be easier to digest and more nutritious than formula, no matter what the age of the baby? Not being facetious (sp?), I'm quite curious about this one.

[Inanna]

In answer to the premmie breast milk/toddler breast milk. Barb Glare would be best to ask but I really think breast milk would still be a superior option than ABM.

If you don't know women in your physical community that feel the way you do - join a breastfeeding support group or a homebirth support group. You will find many likeminded women there.

I disagree that most people don't educate themselves - I think many do but because our society is set up as such that we live insular and separate lives we don't share this information as readily. The change has to start somehwere - so you could be the change!

I have lived in 2 communities since becoming a mother and have found a large and varied group of likeminded women in both. I went searching, I joined groups - it's the only way to make connection by intention first.

I must have misundersstood but I don't think Liz was suggesting she doesn't have likeminded women in her physical life? Just that she wouldn't know how to offer her milk to another without offending?

I am answering quickly as it's bath time... But willl be back later...

[butterfly_warrior]

He is thriving - your breasts are doing a great job as are you.

Actually, my breasts don't work at all. But I'm hopefull that they will next time if we can remove premie baby and SCN from the equation and have things a bit more relaxed and not need that God-forsaken pump!

BW

[Trillian]

I don't think the prem milk v the toddler milk would make much of a difference in the scheme of things would it? If it is going to a milk bank to be processed before use, then aren't separating it out are they? Otherwise you would need different categories of milk for each stage of infancy and toddlerhood.

[Liz]

That's what I would have thought too Trillian, that it all goes into a big vat and is processed hehe. Maybe not?

I asked the question because the milkbank specifically asked for prem milk.

[Janie]

I *think* the Mercy milk bank will only be accepting milk from mums with babies of a certain age ie. under 12 months. Don't quote me on that though

ETA I think the preference for prems would definitely be premmie BM, but I'm sure other BM is considered almost as good

[Lolli]

FC I wasn't actually complaining there, just making a point along the lines of what Liz had said- sharing EBM is just not something that would generally come up amongst your average group of women, even if they were in need (say, a mother with a premmie baby)- it is just not a subject people broach freely, either because of fear of offending someone or making them feel inadequate, or because of the general social taboo.

There is the continual message of 'Breast is best' that most women know, and most women know the advantages of breast feeding. However, even amongst the handful of women I know that are pro breastfeeding or long term bf'ers, they would still offer their baby a formula feed instead of someone else's milk, and definately instead of someone else's boob, in the case that they couldn't feed in the short term and couldn't express, or at the time of emergency. For most women I know, it wouldn't even occur to them to ask somebody else for milk, or to offer their own. Many mothers in my mother's group believed other mother's milk was inherently unsafe for babies and forumla would be the much preferred option. The concept of sharing milk is just not one that is at the forefront of people's minds, and the taboo associated with it might be enough to make a lot of mother's shun the idea deswpite the benefits to their baby.

Most women don't seem to educate themsleves any further then the concept of 'Breast is best, but formual is safe and trustworthy and the next best thing'. I'm not putting the blame on mums here- most of them aren't offered the information about how bad formula can be compared to BM, most of them aren't offered a communtiy where bf'ing is accepted, refered and shared. The attitude of our society towards formula feeding is not one that promotes questioning of the product, and the concept of bf'ing is a very private one to one most people, iykwim. I'm just saying that for us to have a society that sees BM as a donatable resource and a neccessity, something that can be shared between babies in a time of need, there needs to be a massive shift in the thinking of most people, and the way we think as a society about the concept of nourishing our babies.

[briggsy's girl]

i think some difficulty also comes from your own circle of friends - due to DH's age, most of our circle of friends are significantly older and well past BF age - none of them could help us even if they wanted to. yes, i know one person locally who has a bubba she is BF (thanks to meeting on BB!) but i haven't actually "met" her, and would find it very difficult to ask for help in those circumstances. having said that, there are members on BB who, if they had a baby now and needed help with EBM or feeding their baby, i'd travel halfway across the country to be there for them! i would love to be able to help by providing milk to a milk bank if i could, but i don't think there is anything locally

FWIW - my SIL had a premmie (4 weeks) that she was expressing for and had copious amounts of milk (bubba number 3 - her boobies knew how to do their thing!) - a middie asked her "off the record" if she'd be prepared for them to use some of her excess EBM for a set of twins born a couple of weeks early - their mum wanted to BF but her milk just wasn't in. SIL jumped at the chance. she also said if i got sick or anything and needed help with EBM she would look at options to relactate - but it would have to be something we were in dire need of...

[onthefly]

That's sweet of your sister BG!

Thanks for the great discussion all! So many good points, particularly on how much we take for granted about the safety of abm (let alone so many other things we consume).
I would donate ebm and use it. I would also feed another child or let someone else feed my ds in an emergency situation. Beyond that I think I'd feel a bit uncomfortable about it, just cause actually breastfeeding is an intimate act between me and my baby.
So yeah, if anyone out my way needs milk - I am a clean nonsmoker....mind you, I don't actually have a pump.

[Epacris]

I LOVE this thread, such a fabulous discussion. No, it's more than a discussion, it's an exploration into all the deepest corners of this concept.

FWIW I would donate and accept milk from a milk bank. I would donate and accept unauthorised raw EBM. I would suckle another's baby and allow my baby to suckle another mother. Of course, all depending on the circumstances.

But yes, IRL these issues and situations have just never come up in polite conversation. The ever present, easily accessible formula option is just all too pervading.

I propose a terminology change: what we know as "milk" shall be known as "extracted udder fluid of bovine origin" and "expressed breast milk" shall be known as "human milk". If we can all use these new terms I'm sure it will go a long way to changing the mindset of what society thinks about milks of all kinds.

[Liz]

I propose a terminology change: what we know as "milk" shall be known as "extracted udder fluid of bovine origin" and "expressed breast milk" shall be known as "human milk". If we can all use these new terms I'm sure it will go a long way to changing the mindset of what society thinks about milks of all kinds.

Hehe.. good idea! Cow's milk shouldn't be so normal.. human milk should be!

[Inanna]

Epacaris - I loved the bovine milk... Very quirky!

Firstly BW I now do remember your breast milkstory - I am sorry in all honesty I often and I don't know why this is... Get you mixed up wth BG and this is what happened. My sincere apologies if I upset you in any way.

LR - my experience has been different. Breastfeeding and birth have always been huge topics in playgroups, homebirth meets and ABA meetings. So, it's certainly been an issue (sharing human milk) that's been discussed.

BG I understand that friends may not be feeding - but joining a group like ABA or even just a first mothers group the discussion can be broached. Education and change happens with us first.

My whole point is that we need to build Villages that don't think feeding a baby human milk from a donor is wierd. Remember in our mothers "day" having a baby in a tub of water would have likely incurred a stint in a psychiatric facility (at least for mine - my mother is almost 70 - I forget I am an "old bird"). We have to remember that a large proportionof our mothers did not feed at the breast as it was "too sexual"... My husbands's mother with all the very best intentions in the world on a doctors suggestion fed him vitamized steak at 6 weeks old!

We cannot afford - especially at this crucial time in human evolution to just say why we can't. For it's yin and yang. For every can't there is a can.

Being courageous in our beliefs but always kind and compassionate in our stand is imperative. The amount of women feeding their babies human milk (thanks Epacaris!) at 6 months is shockingly low... MantaRay and Barb may know the recent stats - if I rattle out what I believe it to be I may embarass myself further!
There is outrageously negligent support for breastfeeding mothers - in fact for mothers post birth. We are expected to birth our babies under fluroescent lights, often drugged - or in an OT. We are told to 'get up an at em". We go home and continue on struggling to fit this new person into our homes. Our bodies are sore, our hormones raging - the demands are huge. It is an impossible situation and it's shocking that so many of us get through it without a major crisis... We don't many don't get through it without giving up on BF. NOT because we are not great mothers but because we need nurturingin that first 6-12 weeks. We need to think about breasts and baby - we need a VILLAGE.

How many of you had meals arrive on your doorstep after the births of your babies? If you didn't it's not because no body cared - it's because our lives are too busy to build comunity and because we now have a generation of people that are so overloaded we can only focus on what's going on in our yard.

The change happens when we know a new baby has been born - we take a meal. We don't have baby showers we have Blessing Ways - the formation of a group of women who will watch over the mother and her child in the post partum period.

If we don't change the way our society functions our daughters and sons are going to be in a sorry state.

I have that community - not because I am any more special - but because I work at it. My kids know that when a baby is born we arrive with food. Not flowers (tho these may be optional!) Whenever someone is sick - we arrange a food roster, mowing roster, school drop offs. We need to epand our thinking.

It is awkward to say "do you want some of my milk" - say it 3 time and it's not awkward any more. That tin of formula is the best solution in the middle of a dark night when a mother is so tired her body shakes, her nipples are so cracked that the baby chucks up blood streaks and her body still hurts from her birthing. That tin looms large because we have been told it's healthy, sterile and "screened". Many women buy formula and bottles prior to birthing their babies "just in case". The marketers are doing their job well. The newborn cries a lot, fusses at the breast, has difficulty attatching - the CHN suggests a bottle - or your MIL does or your sister or friend. We are talking marketing that plays at our heart strings - because we will do ANYTHING for this new little person.

This thread is far more than EBM and would you donate. It's about how we can support mothers so that they have the best possible chance of feeding their babies at their breast or break down the barriers and feed them someone elses.

For goodness sake we suck in on average 1.5 litres of bovine milk or it's products on average daily... The bodily fluid of a rather smelly beast. We baulk at feeding our children the milk of another human... Think about it.

We cannot continue living insular lives. This thread attests that hter are many women with likeminded views in the relatively small community of BB. There ARE women in your towns and suburbs who have these values - they just have to be found.

[briggsy's girl]

ahhhh the BW/BG mix up curse strikes again! hehehe - good thing neither of us gets offended by it Deb - far too many ways that we're similar that we're STILL working out! unfortunately for BW her attempts to BF Sam were unsuccessful even though she tried for weeks to establish a supply - it just wasn't working. Hugs BW - you're one of the chickies i'd have travelled to help if the timing of our bubba births were reversed!

Deb - you mentioned having formula on hand "just in case" - and it's something i know i contemplated before Emerald was born - but i wasn't going to have it in my house cos it would be too easy to let stress/emotions or whatever get the better of me. my "plan" had been to have a couple of the individual sachets at mum's place (20k's away) in case we needed it - it would have to be desperation that would drive me to going that far to get it. but i decided against the safety net factor. i figure i can lay in bed with my girl all night and just let her feed if need be. it's emotionally draining and physically not great when she's so worked up she won't attach properly (she did this last night) and the idea of the "convenience" of handing her to daddy to feed was definitely on my mind, but i had no choice - we had no alternative and i just had to suck it up! we did eventually get her to feed properly and sleep but it was a very trying night! had there been formula in the house i may have caved but i've fought every step of the way to do the BF thing for my girl and i'm glad i didn't have that option

i'm slowly working on building a village of similarly minded people - i know there were five little girls born here in town within a few weeks, so i'm hoping we can get a mothers group happening. it's just very difficult for me to move out of my existing (and very supportive) village which consists of older people or those my age who've had no trouble having children so their kids are older, into a new group of people. i know i have to do it - for Emerald as much as for me - it's just making that move! for a shy person, it's damned hard to break out of what you know ...

[MantaRay]

The issue with "premmie" milk is to do with the fact that premmie milk is higher in the nutrients that premmies need, and lower in some other things which can actually be not so good for premmies. Therefore premmie bm is absolutely the safest thing for premmies, and the best thing for their growth and development. Any other bm is the next best thing, and ABM is the least desirable option, but obviously better than no milk at all.

As I understand it, the milk bank on the Gold Coast (when it has enough funds to operate!) accepts milk from mums who's babies are up to 12 months of age. I imagine this "cut-off" has been decided upon with good reasons (although I'm not familiar with them).

As only premmies are receiving bank milk at this point, I would say all the milk would be mixed, so all milk given out would contain at least some premmie EBM. But again, I'm only guessing.

[Heaven]

Yeah MR I read on their website that the milk is mixed from a number or donors.

[~ Mylitta ~]

I don't think the prem milk v the toddler milk would make much of a difference in the scheme of things would it? If it is going to a milk bank to be processed before use, then aren't separating it out are they? Otherwise you would need different categories of milk for each stage of infancy and toddlerhood.

When I spoke to the lady from the Mercy Breastmilk Bank she mentioned that I might not be needed right at the beginning when they start accepting donors because Kyson is already 6 weeks old. She said they are going to make it a priority to accept milk from NICU and SCN mothers who have premie babies. So my assumption would be that they don't mix the milk from mothers of babies of different ages. The pamphlet mentions that the milk from a number of donors gets mixed together, but again I'd assume that all the milk that gets combined would be from mother's who have babies of similar ages.

[Trillian]

Thanks for that. I guess it's a big ask to go around 'recruiting' if you will, mothers with babes in NICU or SCN, and ask for their milk when they could already be struggling with it, or simply aren't interested or even able to do it, as how many prem mums would it take to get a decent supply to cater for all the prem bubs who can't get enough from their own mums? But then I suppose once they realise just how vitally important it is for prem bubs to get prem milk, they might change their minds. And does the 'prem milk' you make go on for how long? When does it become 'regular' milk (for lack of a better word LOL) does it change ever so slightly when you reach your edd so it is nourishing a term baby?

[Inanna]

That's good to have that info - thanks...

Actually prem mothers often have loads of milk & this will make the target easier. When a baby is prem - the mothers milk comes in as it normally would post birth - obviously it's more tenuous as arrificial stimulation obviously is not as fruitful as feeding your baby. I had close on 20 litres of milk frozen when I left NICU/SCN. There were many women with loads as well - remembering that your milk comes in with all the stimulation to feed a term baby. A NICU baby needs about 1ml per 3 hours at 800grams (approx) so you can see that the extra milk when lactation is successful is huge.

I too was asked on the sly about my milk - however it never got given and all of my milk was discarded. Because there was no milk bank and my tiny girl wasn't drinking any where near what I was producing.

It is stressful expressing when you have a NICU baby - often you are ill (I was in HDU for a week post birth), you don't have physical contact with your baby (I did not see Imogen until she was a week old), or if you do it's hands through the port holes of an incubator.
So all of these conditions set up some women - I would think especially first time Mamas to have huge difficulties with the breast milk production. For those who are successful there is a huge amount left over. I was expressing at 10 days in one feed what she needed for 3 days... So you can see how the Premmie milk over production can happen and therefore how a milk bank supplying only Prem milk would work...