Thanks everyone for their thoughts. I really appreciate it. It's good to know I'm not loosing my mind.
I plan to bring this up through mediation b4 CSA. I'll fill you in on the outcome. In the meantime, like I've always done.. I never count on or budget the child support as the money is unreliable and not for me anyway.. it's for our daughters up-bringing.. the same up-bringing that we would have provided her if we were together.
To me, its about living up to moral obligations and committments.
The other possibility is too that as an example, my sister sent her three children from her first husband to a catholic school and the school itself would send two separate bills, one to her and one to the husband. All she did was tell them that he was paying half and here are his details and they then handled all the financial transactions...she never had to worry about chasing him down for money etc...that was their job and I tell you what he is much less likely to argue with the catholic school board debt collectors then he is his ex wife!!
How much have you discussed education since you split? Because i can see that saying your 1 year old should go to private catholic high school is NOT the same as saying "yeah next year i'll start paying the $$$$ for the school we talked about" and i would have taken his unwillingness to contribute to her primary education to be a sign that he was no longer interested in paying for her education.
My ex and i agreed when i was pregnant that once she was born we would both work, one full time and one part time, so that DD would never have to be in childcare and so that we would both be able to get out of the house and work and earn. Then we split up. Long story short; he works, if i wanted to work i'd HAVE to use childcare because he doesn't look for flexible jobs or provide care when he IS at home (he recently took a job in a different town so he doesn't even live in the same city as us for half the week anymore). I decided long ago that not using childcare was the most important bit TO ME, so i have to live on benefits and not work. Sure, i have talked to XP about this, about our agreement to both care for her and both be able to work but he just says "that was before". He sees her whenever he wants (every day when he's in the city) and has her overnight once a week. He was always completely terrible with money, i knew that when i got pregnant. He didn't get better with money when i was PG, he isn't going to now. Sure, it'd be great if DD could have a whole bunch of nice things (or even, some weeks, just more fruit and meat) because her dad was fronting up the cash, but he isn't able to. I'm lucky, he always pays his cs and he gives me what extra he can, but his 30 bucks a week isn't anything LIKE half of her expenses and she's only 2!
I suppose i think people don't always change. If they did we wouldn't have/be exes! I couldn't live with XP anymore, so i live apart from him. I take what he can offer. I had a child with him and DD and i both have to live with that. I guess for me it's most important that DD has a daddy who she can be confident loves her, and in XP, thank goodness, she has that. If i have to financially cover some of his "share" of costs so that he can remain in that role i will. My sister's dad (mum's XDH) never spoke to her after they split up until my mum died - 34 years - and it wasn't money she missed out on, it was love.
For that reason i would NEVER tell my child anything bad about their dad, if he ever hurts her feelings i'll talk to her about how she can let him know and stand up for herself, but i wouldn't get her involved in the financial side. To me, no matter what XP and i said or planned or agreed, that was then, this is now, and for now, money can't buy her love, and love is what she needs most.
Given his CS contribution it doesn't look like the X in this case IS earning a packet. In the UK non-resident parents pay 25% of their weekly earnings over 100GBP in CSA for a first child (the more kids they have the less money they pay per child), and that amount is reduced by 13% for every overnight they have the child. Only the richest of non-resident parents actually ends up paying 50% of a child's real-life expenses on that system. He couldn't choose not to pay anyway, the courts garnish wages in the UK if the father doesn't pay. He would have to drop out of DD's life altogether and move away and then never work to not pay (they find people through their national insurance number which comes onto the tax system whenever one works) and if he did that i'd consider it his loss.
I'm not saying she has no right to be angry about it, but i do think that 6 years of refusal to pay for Primary education is a pretty clear indication that he isn't going to pay for her education. And i think the decisions you make when you're a couple, as a couple, hold far less water once you break up. That's one reason i asked if he had talked about Catholic school recently. I'll be pretty mad if XP starts reminding me of potential financial commitments i made nearly a decade back when DD is 10. On the other hand i'll be pretty pi$$ed off if he decides a week after agreeing that he will that he'd actually rather not pay for something.
I just re read through the thread, I shouldn't post whilst I'm so tired....
I had the impression the ex had a big wage, but yeah, the child support doesn't indicate that necessarily.
It might be time to write a NEW child support plan and it sounds like you will have the opportunity to do that soon.
My 2 cents worth (my perspective is that of someone who has worked in the area of family disputes for a number of years) is as follows:
1. I don't think you are unreasonable in feeling frustrated with this situation. Morally your ex is behaving poorly to say the least. It would be frustrating to see him rehouse with another partner and also be very disappointing for you to see him choose to spend less time with your daughter by electing to live further away.
2. The CSA is not interested so much in morality.
CSA is interested in evidence and the law. In general terms, if you can present evidence to the CSA regarding your joint agreement to educate your daughter privately at secondary level it is likely that the CSA will determine that he should make a joint contribution to the fees. The best sort of evidence comes in the form of signed enrolment forms, waiting list forms and that sort of thing. If you enrolled her pre separation approach the school and ask for a copy of the form you both signed.
If you have to rely upon your recollection of conversations etc on the topic present as much information as possible. EG. "We were sitting around the kitchen table around the time of DD's first birthday". This sort of detail can give credibility to your recollection when there are competing stories. If you have witnesses to the discussion a statement from them would possibility help.
Breaking down your request in terms of a weekly cost is very persuasive too - you are right $38 a week does not sound as bad as $2000 per year. Make sure when you make the application you consider the other ancilliary costs of private schooling her even if they are once off or irregular expenses, eg uniforms book levies.
Evidence to CSA about their expenses is hard to find, but rack your brains, does he buy very lavish gifts? Go on holidays often? Have other expensive hobbies? Presenting as much detail in a dispassionate way can help.
3. CSA may also make a determination in your favour re extra curriculars and medical expenses. It is worth submitting those expenses and asking for a reassessment on future expenses too. The key may well be whether or not you had an agreement about the necessity of these expenses.
4. On a separate note however, I very strongly feel that it is not fair to your little one to involve her in this dispute especially given her age. I do not believe that at this age your daughter, like most children of this age range and even above, is truly likely to have the emotional maturity to deal with the layers of the dispute nor make the choice about her education pathways.
Your frustration with her father is a separate issue. It is your issue. Not hers.
She still is entitled to make her own way in her relationship with her father, whatever his downfalls. As she gets older she will wisen up to his downfalls all on her own.
My observation is that once one party involves a child in a dispute like this the proverbial gloves come off and the children do get stuck in the middle about all sorts of things, minor and major.
IMO it will be far more beneficial for her and you for you to abstain from discussing these things with her. If she asks you as an adult you can tell her. She will most likely respect you more for not involving her as a child and will frankly have a far greater chance of developing into a well rounded individual.
Unfortunately in my job I have seen a lot of young children and teenagers spending time in the psychologists' office or worse due primarily to their being caught up in their parent's post separation disputes, rather than due to their distress about their separation itself.
People would be suprised about how much this happens and how bad the fallout can be in the long term.
Obviously every situation is different. Everybody is different. What might happen to one will no doubt not happen to the other. Everybody has to do what gets them through and what allows them to sleep at night! Obviously your ex is a heavy sleeper by nature!!
Have you thought of approaching the school to see whether they may contribute to a bursary of some kind for her on the basis of your financial position? Appalling from an moral perspective I know. But maybe a possibility?
Overall, whilst it sounds trite, you are doing a great job as a mummy to your daughter. It is natural to want her dad to share your ideals about what you think is best for her. You are entitled at the very least to have a vent from time to time when he lets you down.
Relying on forums like this to vent and reality check is a really good thing to do!
Sorry that you are in this situation - but keep your chin up and good luck with it all!
Hey -
Adding another persepective, The stepmother caring for her stepsons full time!
We do get c/s from their mother, i think its like $30 a forntight, haha, as you can imagine that pays for ALL the boys needs hahah! (jokin here) But we don't expect her to pay anything else, they are our kids, we choose the school and what they wear, and I feel (haven't really spoken to DF about this in fully so this is my opinion) but they are our responsibility and we should foot any bills that occur.
I do understand that it is hard. But if DD was just yours and DH's child you would have to pay for everything?!?! so getting the C/S i see it as an added bonus.
If you get what i mean?
I don't think you should tell your DD what is going on with ex, any parental/financial disputes are between you two (or four - the adults) she will know as she gets older who pays for what...
I know when my parents split dad didnt pay for anything, it was my mum and step dad and they didnt complain once, nor did they ever say anything bad about dad. Which was great because it allowed me to make up my own mind about him and sore him for who he really was if you get what i mean?
I'm 2nd oldest of 5, mum and dad divorced when i was 15, youngest was 5. Oldest was out of home. 2 next stayed with mum (and then stepdad) and 2 young ones stayed with dad.
Dad constantly complained how mum ripped him off, cheated blah blah blah. Only that my sister and i knew what had happened we made up our own mind. The 2 littlies had to wait for that day
11 years later 4 out of 5 children speak to dad but don't have a great relationship with him. At the end of the day while my mum didn't whinge about paying for us, driving us places, feeding/clothing/schooling all these other things that add up (and c/s is a mere drop in the ocean realistically) the 2 younger ones chose to move in with mum and step dad.
While my step dad worked and made a living mum was an at home mum for us kids. So maybe he paid more than his 'fair share' but he certainly has received a lot more love and respect and a real relationship from his (step)kids, He even walked my sister down the aisle at her wedding!
I do believe kids grow up to look at things through their own eyes and see things for what they are. I know the $$ is a tough issue at the time but I think when your kids are adults and you're not still paying for them, it's not who paid most % that counts.
Having said that i certainly don't think you're being unreasonable, I just believe you will 'win' in the end no matter what!
Good luck
An update. We've been flicking some not so nice emails between ex and myself. BUt is has agreed to pay whatevere CSA defines PLUS 50% of her secondary education.
I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch. Not until I see it in the court order, I wont believe it.
YAY! I'm so glad he's in agreement - he must realise he DID say he would do this. I agree with the PP above who said to get the school to bill him direct! Cut yourself out of the equation, and let him get angry at someone else for a change.
I know.. I actually said that to him anyway. Hehehe. I said that when the time comes the bill will go to him directly, and that any debt collecting issues will be done with them or their debt collecting agency. Cheeky I know.. But.. prooved a point!
When we lived in the same town as ex we would share stepson (we had him 60% she had him 40%)
My hubby has not paid child support to ex partner I will explain why. Ex called us one day and asked for $300 to buy new clothes and shoes for stepson, so we gave her money. When stepson came back from his mums, we saw stepson he did not have new clothes or shoes. Ex had spent the money on herself for new clothes, smokes etc, sorry yes she did buy stepson clothes but from the second hand shop. So from that day we never gave her money again. And funny enough that same day stepson wanted to stay with us all the time, so for 5 years he was living with us full time until we moved to QLD (ex didn?t offer any support to us when stepson was living with us full time).
Even to this day the ex partner does not see a cent. YES we do provide financial support to his son, we pay ? school fees, he is on our health fund even tho he is in a different state (he is not on ex health fund) we purchased his first car, we pay for the rego and insurance and when he had the crash and needed things fixed up it was us that helped him with money, pay for travel and buy him clothes etc. My stepson knows that if he ever needs money to call me and I will put the money in his account. We are just so lucky that stepson is old enough that we can put the money in his bank. We know that the money is going directly to him and not to his mothers needs.
Ex thinks that we are ar****les for not giving her money as well. Now that stepson is 18 if we were really ar****les we would stop supporting him but we are not like that.
A Child does not asked to be born the parents chose to bring a child into this world, it is then up to the parents to take care of that child for the rest of their life. Only when the parents die does the responsibility for that child end.
Last edited by mumma_lion; August 27th, 2008 at 01:01 PM.
You are what a step mum should be. There are so many dodgy mothers out there doing what your step-son's mother is doing. Which is why the odd times I needed a hand when I was single, I asked my ex to buy her clothes or shoes, not give me cash. That way there was proof it was for her.
I wish my ex's partner showed more affection towards my daughter. She says she loves her dearly, but her actions show otherwise.
I'm biding my time, and knowing that sooner enough, my DD will understand that it is me and her step-dad that give her the wonderful life she has and that i have never prevented her dad having more custody, he just chooses to live too far away.
I'm encouraged to hear that you son (and i'll call him that, as I'm sure you count him as your son) understands and recognises your love for him.
My own step-mum is a b**ch. Wont come to anything to do with myself or my brothers, but expects our kids to call her nanna. But that's another whole kettle of fish.
I am also a stepmother to my partners 2 children from a previous marriage and I have two kids of my own. It is my kids that are missing out. My partner is a low wage earner of about 30k year with the new changes to child support his child support has increased by 4 times the amount. We pay it and always have. My partner is unable to support us because child support takes over 200 a month out of his low wage. I know it doesn?t seem like much but it is when you are only bringing home just over 400 week to support a family of 4 it is. I have to go to work and put my kids in childcare just so we can pay our bills, while she sits around on the single parent pension whilst living with her partner collecting everything she can. The kids never have new clothes and clearly aren?t looked after properly but we have no say in anything.
When they first separated my partner and his family had the kids every day and night till she worked out that she wouldn?t get any money. She then kept the kids away from him for nearly 2 years. She can claim legal aid whilst he had to have at least 2000 before the lawyers would even help him. She was the one that cheated several times in the relationship and kicked him out for another man who moved in the same day he moved out. He doesn?t even know if one of the kids is his. She kept the house and car but the child support agency don?t take this in to account ? his share of the house would be over $20,000.
When she asks for more money most of the time we have to say no because he really can?t afford it making him look like a bad father. I earn a decent wage but I don?t see why it should go to her and have my kids miss out even more.
She receives over $1000 per fortnight from the government for the kids and he receives nothing. Why is the money given to her from the government only her contribution to the kids upbringing, the father pays tax as well.
I just want people to realise that some fathers can?t afford to pay more and are not always the bad guys.
looks like you got a lot of different opinions from both sides of the fence - i thought i'd put my 5c in also.
Like sammiejane i too am the wicked stepmum
our situation has basically been that dp has never ever missed/ been late with a csa payment plus we pay extra towards their other costs in a private agreement and when things come up like need shoes etc we fork out for that too. and we're happy too because they're his kids as well as hers and these costs should be joint.
however she is a money grubbing, lazy cow - which i am not saying you are... just giving my story. she didn't work a day in her life for the 12 years she was with DP... she managed to get UTD with his kid within 1 mth of them being together and he being the gentleman he is decided to stick around to take care of his responsibilities.
basically even when they were together she claimed single parent pension behind his back and centrelink found out and sent a letter saying she owed $8K - guess who got to pay (they were still together).... then they split up and she took majority of the furniture, left him with all the joint debts and wanted $$$$$$$$ - which he paid but still stuck with debts (that we're now jointly paying together - thanks B****).... she's engaged now, living with her partner but we KNOW she's claiming single parent again (partner works in finance and happened across a finance app of her partner - he had a different address even tho living together). so she completely rorting the system (love the fact my tax payer dollars are going towards that).
recently she asked if we pay CSA direct to her so she can get the $$ sooner (she's planning their wedding and needed to pay for some things - great to see it's going towards the kids) - so i paid it to her account and told her to tell CSA. Did the same the next month .... told her to tell CSA again and a few weeks later got a letter for DP saying we were 3 months in arrears.... ha! Thank god I paid over internet and had my statements - so now CSA know we aren't in arrears. so this month i paid direct to CSA and she had a complete stink... stiff.
ooooeer another funny thing: centrelink are making her work full-time now and she's not happy. LOL most ppl are happy to be made full-time. not this lazy cow. and she had the gall to say to my DP 'i'm surprised you're having more kids since you can't afford the ones you have'... since when have we not paid for them?
anyway sorry - not my thread.... mumtomany i don't think you're being unreasonable at all. I realise you made a verbal re sending your child to private school but maybe he's changed his mind? could ask and test the water - end of the day as primary caregiver it's your choice where you send your child to school but if you want $$ might be worth getting his opionion too.
Despite all our troubles with DP's ex, i never, ever, ever speak ill of her when the kids are even remotely within earshot. that is between the adults - although i am damn sure she wouldn't show us the same courtesty. I make sure DP does the same. I grew up in a split family and my mum bad mouthed my dad all the time. it made me feel so bad - like it was my fault mum was upset (my dad never paid a cent towards us, nor saw us for 7 years after they split). kids need to stay innocent to the situation, i think they're too young to comprehend properly.
my real dad left my mum when i was 2, met my step-dad when i was 3 and hes the man who i call dad. hes the one hes been there for me...my real dad would only see us every 2 months, he got re married without telling us. he hasent paid a penny for years. hes a ar$e and i will not speak to him he hasent sent me a birthday or xmas card in 4 years nor phoned to say happy birthday etc..but he does buy my other 2 sisters cards and presents. i only told him to go and take a running jump last years after seeing him for what he is.
my mum and dad never mentioned money in front of us but i know he didnt pay anything..iv got alot more love and respect for my step dad (dad) than him.
if he said hed pay he should totally but trust me your dd will realise what he is don't worry about that he sounds like my real dad and i really wish you the best of luck dealing with it all.
take care
rach xxx
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