Does parenting really matter?

[KitFaerie]

Hmm, I'm posting without reading everything, cos otherwise I'll be late going out! Ok, so I'm approaching this from a psych perspective, which is statistically speaking parenting definately makes a difference. If you have a selection of 'good' parents, their kids are more likely to function happily in society, BUT, some wont. If you have a selection of 'bad' parents, their kids are more likely to not do so well, BUT some will. Sometimes parenting thats good enough for some kids to thrive, just isn't enough for other kids, it can be exactly the same type of parenting, some kids just need more, or less, or different. I think it comes down too, if you feel your parents did the absolute best that they could, then it's probably good enough. If you feel your doing the absolute best you can, then be confident in your parenting choices. My parents made mistakes, but overall I feel they did they best they could with the resources they had at the time. If the resources were different, then my expectations would have been different too. And siblings tend not to take up the same ''space'' that's occupied by another sibling, like, if one sibling is known as the smart one, then the next one probably won't try to compete with that space, but is more likely to take a different space, like the funny one. Or in some cases, the black sheep, it may be a dodgy spot, but it's still a spot! (Well, that's what I used to tell my parents).

Having said all that, no one really knows for sure. And there will always be a situation that disproves everything I've just said (but statistically, that's bound to happen too!).

[Rouge]

I think it definitely matters.

But I think parenting is more than just how you put your child to bed, feed them or clothe them. It is about how you nurture *THEM* not them as a child... but them as who they are individually. Allowing them the room to grow without criticism, passive aggression, emotional blackmail etc. Our personalities and how we treat others as well as our partners affects them more as people and grooms them more to be the person they will be more than how much money they have or if they are told they are loved (and yes this is very important... but if you tell a child you love them yet show them differently it doesn't work now does it?). This is my belief anyway.

[Fleur]

Hmm just quickly & having read some replies not all.

Looking at 'nature vs nurture' I have always thought it is both.

My first thoughts reading the thread title were a discussion I had with a friend of mine years ago...
That if you can recognise a trait in yourself, and especially if you can see where it cam e from, then you are then responsible for it, not your parents.

So for example, I say I am basically a fairly insecure & needy person because I suffered rejection as a child.
But once I can recognise that, it is my responsibility to fix it, deal with it, or accept that way of being.

But having said that...the fact that there is an issue there to deal with...well, that was down to how I was parented.

Does that make sense?

For a long time I blamed my childhood & how I was treated as a child, for my depression & anxiety. A number of things have caused me to rethink this, one of which is I see the same behaviours in my older children - and they have not had the childhood I did.
So there is something there to attribute to 'nature'. But perhaps the 'nurture' conrtibuted to it.

AR is calling but I will be back to read properly.

[Indadhanu]

WOW thats a really interesting thought!

I'd like to get really deep but Jazz is having her 6.30 whinge and tanty so I'll just write my first thoughts and then come back later to compile the rest into something readable!

My first thought is that I think that parenting is CRUCIAL. I also think that parenting extends beyond how we treat our kids, and into how we treat others, because thats how our kids learn.
You could be 'the best' parent (by who's standard I don't know but anyway just roll with me here) to your kids, and then turn around and treat you partner or your friend or your neighbour or even the shop assistant at Woolies like crap, and I believe you've pretty much undone all of your 'best parenting'.
I also think that parenting, even though technically it wouldn't be CALLED parenting, extends to anyone who has regular contact with your child. See my next thought...

My second thought is... why do kids from the same family turn out so different? Well, everyone has their own experience. Their parents could be 'the best' but when that child steps into school they are watching their teacher 6 hours a day and they are learning a new set of values and ideals from this teacher. Two siblings, with two different carers (teachers) at school (or daycare etc), are going to put a new set of behaviours and ideas into their toolbox.

My third thought is... that even when considering my first and second thought, every person has a choice as to which tools they use from their lifes toolbox. We all have a whole bunch of great tools, and a whole bunch of not so great tools (I'll be the first to admit it, I find myself needing to put away some tools and take out others OFTEN...). Even with the 'best' parenting, the 'best' role models, limited negative experiences and a whole toolbox of positive tools to face life, a person can still choose to use the one negative tool in their toolbox. Or the opposite, a person could have a really negative set of tools, and choose to use the one positive tool they have picked up throughout their upbringing.

And the next question on your lips... why do some people choose positive tools and others choose negative? Hmmm, well i think the answer is within ourselves. We do we choose to use our positive tools (like patience in a slow moving shopping line!) sometimes, ad negative tools at others (huffing, puffing, sighing, and being cranky about the line moving so slow)? Good day? Bad day? Something else to do? Nothing else to do? A decison someone makes at one particular moment of time is influenced by a whole different set of circumstances than if they were faced with this same situation the day before or the day after... Sometimes it can be a life-changing (positive or negative) experience, sometimes their are regrets... but everyone makes the choice they feel is the right choice for them at that particular moment in time...

Well, anyway, thats my thoughts...
Ok that was longer than I thought it would be...

[Inanna]

It's taken nearly 24 hours to get back but I've had this on my mind most of my day!

I think parenting matters but like most things in life I think parenting consciously & intentionally "well" isn't a guarantee...

As you know I have 5 children - who really couldn't be more different. My oldest was probably parented with the most attatchment parenting style (simply as she is the oldest & there is a large gap so she was my world)... I wonder at times if this has contributed to her intense need for attention. However, I also don't know if that's how her nature would have been.

Having birthed 5 babies their personalities were evident almost immediately!
Ruby needed attention 24/7 my eyes had to be on her & her needs had to be met immediately & this has always been the way. Intensely interested in her surroundings.
Finn was shocked to be in this World & needed reassurance of my presence & love - and still does. Incredibly intelligent toys were very childish to him - he wanted to think! I am sure he is a very old Soul
Lucy was born fast and furiously. She didn't make a sound as she entered the room - just looked at us all as if to say: "mmm so that's who you all are... She had the most tender eyes & was curious about everything... Gentle but spunky & stunningly gorgeous.
Eva was born much like Finn shocked to be here... A little afraid of this world - and she still is but again stunningly gorgeous and quirky - oh so quirky...
Imogen took me time to get to know but her peaceful but stern hold on herself took me by surprise in those first weeks of her life. She was frail but strong & she still is..

What my long story is telling is that they had a nature. I see it as my role, my job, my contract with them (for I believe they chose me & I them) is to nurture their natures. To lead them, help them build a frame work of a Self. They have to fill in the pieces - for that's their journey... I need to provide them with a soft place to fall, a strong & honourable role model in how I deal with the world, people, love, spirituality, friends, strangers etc etc (perhaps this is the biggest and most significant of all). They have watched me Mother their siblings & that is an amazing gift I am grateful for constantly! Sometimes I see them watch me, take it in & play act with their dolls or my oldest daughter comments that she doesn't know how I can be so patient (trust me I don't believe patience is something I have a lot of...). So, I know the seeds are there, growing little shoots... I know now that when I behave childishly, react from my wounded self - that it's how I recover from that that is important. To say I'm sorry - I was having a moment & well let's have a cuppa...

I don't think I have any tricks of the trade - just trying to show them that we always grow and change and evolve. That they cannot rely on me for everything as I will let them down. That there are other people who can help - so part of my job is to ensure they have good adults that they can turn to for support when they can't come to me...

I grew up as the oldest of two daughters. My mother was a very unstable woman who sadly I reflect probably jsut yearned for her husbands devotion. She picked the wrong apple in my Dad. He was married to the police force. He had the communication skills of a yak & the presence of one too!

I never saw kindness from my Mother - I saw anger, jealousy incredible expectations of others. I can remember being very young and turning to her & saying: "why don't you just tell your friend that you're sad at her"... I remember that like it were yesterday... People always "let her down"... She lived through me. I was pushed to play sport as she was sporty... (I am just the antithesis of sporty!!! - I think running is a ridiculous past time - I much rather walk and smell the air!) I wasn't allowed to speak to boys. I won't go into it all and bore you all but my life was quite hellish. I was beaten with straps, spoons. Locked in my room, called names from the window in front of my friends - every night I would pray to any deity that would hear that my life would be better & that it was my job to do it.
My parents divorced when I was 15 - neither wanted me so I was sent to an Uncle who raped me repeatedly. I ran away and my life began...

Why I say all of this is that my nature is determined. My nature is optimistic. Somewhere I knew the nightmare of much of my early life was part of my story. I chose consciously not to allow that to define me. So that I believe really was my nature. No matter how badly I was parented I knew intrinsically that I was able to turn it around.

I had lots of struggles. Lots of issues to over come & like us all I deal with them still. However, many people have stories similar to mine and they don't come out of it well. They perhaps are addicted to drugs, alcohol, sex... They will do anything to be loved.

I think I did all of the above (I wasn't addicted to drugs or sex) - but I drank too much & I yearned for love. I also have and still struggle with a morbid fear of change. Because my life was so unpredictable. All I wanted was the surety that in 12 months I would still be in this house, living my life etc...

I believe that we all have Karma. That we have predetermined lessons to learn/deal with... That opportunity will arise throughout this lifetime to learn them. If we take up the baton & deal we can burn that karma through... Some of it's small some of it's big.

So it is with our children. That is why I think some people will come from "good" (I hate that term but I get you Rach it's hard to find another one... ) families and turn out with big challenges ahead. It's their nature, their path, or their karma.

However, I think personally that we need to be very very conscious in our parenting. We are the fuel pump - and they will always come to us for the rest of our days we will be their wise person. If we can show them unconditional love. Something I say to my two older kids is that if they are ever in any trouble to tell me & if they don't want to they don't have to explain. But just know I am there, I will pick them up from Texas in the middle of the night - just know that I won't ask questions if that's what you want...

We have been given our intricate little characters to teach us and us them... It's no mistake & the honour is to both of us. So, there is a large amount of nature I think & a good sturdy doseage of nurture. Sometimes I have stood back and thought WTF have I done wrong it's all falling apart...
Then before I know it I am bathing in a gossamer glow of how I've got it all so well sorted...

I suppose for me now after nearly 15 years of parenting I get that I fail, I fall short & they actually live through it and so do I...

Some of my children remember the times I fall down very vividly - others not so. That's their nature...

I have also learned that every time I am really triggered by one of them that this is a big learning moment for me... What is it about me... Sometimes now I can even thank them for being a rat bag as it taught me something special...

But yep - as always I ramble on - forgive me it's late, I'm tired and Ive been pondering this through my day...

I think parenting is so incredibly important. I also think that we are born with a nature that perhaps is swayed by the parenting we receive. It could be our saving grace or our curse...

[Epacris]

Thank you so much each and every one of you for sharing your thoughts and telling your very personal stories. I have hung on every word and expanded my mind. I appreciate so much that BB is a place where we can do this.

[KitFaerie]

Thanks for sharing Inanna, your self awareness is a gift

[~Kim~]

Well Rach, I have thought about this alllllll night last night and today. I doubt I will be as eloquent as the rest of you, but I'll try.

Yes I do.
I totally agree with the PPs who talked about giving the tools for them to utilise in later life.

I have dealt with a whole heap of 'bad' kids. From all sorts of families.
The one thing that separates the kids that come out on top (as a generalisation - there are always exceptions) is a positive role model.
Saying that - the positive role model isn't always the child's biological or legal parent. But the 'parenting' is still there. For example some of the Koori kids have nothing to do with their parents around here, but have great parental role models within their community. I see many kids that get away from their parents for a whole variety of horrendous reasons, and many still gravitate towards someone that is a rolemodel.

I myself are from a 'good' family, I did 'good' things with my life - but those things are totally different to the choices my parents made and have often been in total opposition to what they wanted for me, but the tools they gave me allowed me to do that. I hope for that for my kids.

[Lolli]

Holy wow, what a mind blowing thread. My head hurts from thinking this much about an abstract concept

Erm. Will try and get my thoughts out clearly here, bare with me.

I can say, from the experience of myself and my brother, that parenting really does matter. It's amazing, the very subtle effects that it can have on your personality. Of course a bit of it is going to be genetic as well, but as a child, you see the world the way your parents shape it, and it takes a lot of work as an adult to change the inbuilt perception you are left with. It's just the way your brain is wired.

Having said that, this topic scares me.

It scares me how much i am potentially screwing up my children by not micro-managing the aspects of my parenting.

It scares me, how much i may screw them up if I start micro-managing every aspect of my parenting.

And it scares me how totally out of control of the whole thing I really am.

Because, like PP's have said, you can give your kids the tools to work with, but ultimately you have no control over what life throws at them, or how they handle it. And the older they get, the less a cuddle from mummy will fix.

On a side note, for me, emotional resilience- recognising and acknowledging emotions, and learning the tools to deal with them- is something I will continue to focus on as my kids get older, because it's an area I am very weak in, so not necessarily something they will learn well by observation. That is one thing I can attribute to my parent's parenting- emotions were a rare and rationed commodity in the house I grew up, and I intend for it to be different in my own.

[Fleur]

Having said that, this topic scares me.

It scares me how much i am potentially screwing up my children by not micro-managing the aspects of my parenting.

It scares me, how much i may screw them up if I start micro-managing every aspect of my parenting.

And it scares me how totally out of control of the whole thing I really am.

So true!!

I was thinking about this the other night putting DD2 to bed. DH & I were on the bed with her & she was doing her nightly 'wind-down' and we were talking about the temper that we see in her. Usually she is the sunniest, happiest baby. But she has a temper! And I said boy it will be interesting to see what she's like as a toddler

So that got me thinking about my children's different personalities and how different they are in little ways. Some of it might be attributed to birth order or our family circumstances as they grow. But some things, like DD2's temper, seem to be an innate part of who they are - it's how they were born.

I do think that parenting absolutely matters - as has been said, it's where our children get their tools for life, where they get their first examples of how to be - and how not to be.

But I also think that children will react differently to the same parents / parenting because they are born differently wired.

We have all heard stories of children from horrific backgrounds who rose above it all.. many of them had other good influences around them.
Many of us also know of children from 'good' families who have gone a little sideways in their path...

For me it's like gardening.... a plant might grow & flourish if left untended, but to give it the best chance of really thriving, we water them, feed them, make sure they get sunlight, etc etc.
So we do the same for our children, we nourish them emotionally & hope that we have done enough for them to not just exist but thrive.

Sorry if that's all a bit disjointed I have been thinking about this for days now!

[jackrose]

Interesting timing for me, this thread. I have just been reading a book - given to me by a friend about just this topic. Plus, the concept of nature vs nurture has always been of interest to me.

If anyone is interested, the book is They *%# you up by Oliver James. (think the F word in there .

The book pretty much asserts that parenting is what it is all about, and I do agree with this to an extent. I still haven't finished the book so am not really in a place to give an in depth analysis. Leasha, you touched on the major assertion of the book slightly,

My second thought is... why do kids from the same family turn out so different? Well, everyone has their own experience.

Although further than just the experience each child has with significant others outside the family such as with teacher in your example (good point btw) the experience each child has of the same parent can be very different depending on things such as birth order, gender, timing of birth, stage of life of parent... a myriad of other things... and I would say also, the nature of the child.

My far from thoroughly thought out opinion agrees with KitFaerie. I really like the way you put it:

If you have a selection of 'good' parents, their kids are more likely to function happily in society, BUT, some wont. If you have a selection of 'bad' parents, their kids are more likely to not do so well, BUT some will.

There are just too many extraneous variables to be able to pinpoint one thing that influences emotional growth and development of a person totally.

I'm still going to put my best into my parenting and hope for the best!!!!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Of course we screw our children up. That's what being a parent is all about! Giving children neuroses, problems, fears, worries... can you imagine an adult as fearless and confident as a toddler? That's good, you think? No. Some people are like that and for some reason we put those people in charge of our banks. They have no fear about what is going to happen if they do this, no idea of consequences and don't understand we're upset they are still awarding themselves millions in bonuses. We need to mess our children up a bit!

But on a more serious note, we can only do the best we can. And our children have to learn that we are human and make mistakes. The key to good parenting, I feel, is working through those mistakes together. Apologising with grace. Being mindful of the hurt we may do - and have inadvertently caused. Having a relationship close enough that if our child is hurt by us, they will tell us and we can repair it. That we will upset our child is, sadly, a given. How we deal with that upset - that's why parenting is important. IMO.

[thepixie]

Some people are like that and for some reason we put those people in charge of our banks.

GOLD Ryn, that is absolute GOLD!

[Inanna]

I needed to smile tonight and Ryn my darling you did it!

[Jennifer13]

Popping in very late to this thread.

The first thought I had was there is no way each child in a family is parented in the same way, even with the exact same parents. Each of my sisters and I had a different experience of being parented. As well as being different individuals as children, my parents were parenting each of us at different stages for each age/phase and with different challenges. Personality clashes may be more apparent with one sibling over another. The amount of time a child spends alone with their parents (birth order) might have an effect.

Thing is, we don't know at the time whether it's going to be a positive or a negative effect. And each experience, as well as the fact it is different for each member of the family, is going to be remembered by each person differently. That's personality, sure. I read a book once that described it in terms of an experience we all have: starting school. Most people remember their first day of school, but everyone will have a different perception of that memory, positive, negative, neutral. How that memory is perceived then might give us a clue as to how we respond to our experiences and our nature. For eg, I remember my first day as being exciting, all of these little things that happened stand out to me (my teacher, the doggy name tage I wore, the colour of my backpack), and I was happy to be there. But someone else might have been frightened on their first day, perhaps they don't like crowds of people (nature), perhaps this was their first experience of separation from their parent/s (nurture), and so on. So my personality is less sensitive during that event than someone else's.

I think it's a parent's job to recognise your child where they are at now, both in terms of their personality and their experiences, and consider thoughtfully the long-term goals you have in your parenting. They willl still be parented, either way, but as the others have said, this gives your child the best possible chance of having the tools they need. If you know your child is sensitive, then choosing methods of parenting that hurt that sensitive soul is going to do damage. If your child is less sensitive, but needs more stimulation and you don't recognise that, then they're going to be affected. In an abusive household, one child might be more sensitive to the damage than another, because of their age, the stage of their development and their personality. One child might be more abused than another, or targeted in a different way. You're dealing with endless variables when you're trying to find a reason for 'the way someone turns out'.

And BTW you should never assume that just because someone looks like they have it all together (despite their background/childhood) that you know how it is for that person. We put on our best masks to the outside world. The man who appears to have all together and be successful may be an absolute terror behind closed doors with his kids or his wife, because he failed to learn how to properly develop intimate relationships thanks to the way he was parented. The woman with the best hair and makeup might suffer PTSD from childhood trauma. Everyone tries their very hardest to convince the outside world (and themselves) that everything is a-okay most of the time. Those with obvious problems are probably just more honest or no longer able to hide it as successfully. We all know examples of the family split that shocked everyone because 'they looked so happy' and the like.