Following on from my Do you have expectations for your children thread (https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...-children.html) I also often think about whether parenting really matters that much, if (sometimes) at all. And I should just say first up that I think I am a very contentious parent. I think and care about how I parent, I educate myself about parenting choices and I make conscious decisions wrt parenting (but that does not mean I am a helicopter parent, I like to give my kids a lot of personal exploration space).
And I apologise in advance for using the labels "good" and "bad". I am fully aware that these are terms laden with judgment and that IRL there is a history and complex set of circumstances behind each and every person and situation. But for the purposes of this discussion and for simplicity, can you all just get what I mean.
So, I guess I just see so many examples that stick out in my mind of when things don't turn out the way you'd think they should? A very good friend IRL comes from a completely normal, loving family with lovely parents and he is just the nicest, sweetest person ever. But his older brother, hooley dooley, he is just the pits, one of the most revolting people I have ever meet. I guess you can never know everything about the brother's life experiences, and there might be a reason why he is like that, but I suspect that sometimes, there just is no reason at all. It's just the way it is.
And then, other people I know of IRL, and the numerous glimpses of people's stories here on BB, of people that not only had too-strict/too-loose/disinterested parents, but that were actually abused by their parents, horrifically, over years and years, these examples are also stunning. And not only did these people turn out okay, they are some of the most amazing people I have ever met and wonderful, loving, beautiful parents themselves. And in the public eye you can find lots of examples of people from broken beginnings shining through their circumstances and creating an amazing life.
I suppose these are just very strong examples and so I am drawn to them, but actually for the vast majority of the time it is a case of "you reap what you sow" and bad parents end up growing bad children and good parents end up with good ones.
But anyway, all of these examples feed in to why I don't have expectations for my children. Sure, you can do all that you possibly can to reduce the risk, and being a "good" parent is the best thing you could ever do, so in that sense yes, parenting does matter, a lot! But as with life and everything, there are never any guarantees. It's that amazing mix of genes and environment that gives us the diversity that I so appreciate, but that is also so both exhilarating and terrifying.
I dont know if this is waht you mean but here it goes...excuse my lack of smarts, I am not very good wiht getting the words out
Ok so I have the same kinda feelings....Does it come down to parenting, can it be maybe that one parent gave the stable loving foundations wiht lots of love and ciddles and the other didnt.
Some examples.....
I had a friend whose father commited sucide, she then was abused, her brother gave her drugs from grade 4, she has continued down the same path of self destruction but always laying balme to her past...her mother was very unkind and never supportive...so where did this little girls path change? Why did she allow the past to shape her future..she had many many chances? Was it because of the way she was parented? Her mother was a good christian woman who jsut didn show very much affection?
My other friend was beaten by her abusive father, but her mother was their strentgh, she was also born wiht a disablitiy she has very short arms and 3 fingers on each hand...her mother was told to put her in a home She had a shocking upbringing, but her mother was always loving etc she didnt let her past dictate her future... she has worked very high up in governments etc
I spose what I am trying to say is you can lay the foundation for your children, but what type of house they build is up to them so in a way, no parenting doesnt really matter as when they hit the age of doing things their way they will do what they want no matter what type of parent you are? You can only guide them so far.
This is a really hard question. Some times your are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't, iykwim. If you build a strong supportive foundation, encourage self esteem and problem solving then really at the end of the day the rest is up to them (unfortunately).
I've seen kids come from really privileged backgrounds and turn out to be bad eggs or go down the path of destruction and I've seen kids have terrible lives and succeed beyond belief.
My greatest fear as a parent is that my child is going to turn around and tell me I've done a bad job.
I think parenting is very important - even though I know that being a good parent doesn't mean that your children will turn out the way you hope they will be.
(And this is the short version!)
I think that sometimes the difference between a rebellious teen and a totally messed up adult could simply be good example.
Nature vs Nurture is one of my favourite topics. I haven't read anything much on it but I think about it alot. I think it is a question that can never really have a definitive answer but I believe in general, nature is much stronger than nurture. However that may not be true for extreme situations such as physical or sexual abuse.
I think the important part of parenting is showing by example. I never heard my mum say a bad word about anyone while I was growing up, even though she probably had good reason to. It was therefore ingrained in me that people are basically "good" and I still have that and am grateful for that attitude. I don't criticise people either and hope to instill the same attitude in my DD.
I think we all see those examples of people who have triumphed against all odds and those that have been given every opportunity but not taken it. I agree it is terrifying wondering how your children are going to "turn out".
I don't know if you can really talk about 'bad' parents at all - I grew up in a pretty abusive environment and I have come to understand that the mistakes my parent made stemmed from their own legacy of pain from their childhood. Unfortunately they chose to not attempt to heal that pain in themself (because that involves going to some scary places) and so instead played out unconsciously onto the next generation. I think that's what happens a lot - but when you do the work on yourself - to heal your own brokenness, then you have half a hope of passing on something good and whole and worthwhile to your children/other significant relationships.
I have observed over time that parents generally try to do their best - and children often blame them for this, particularly once they are adults themselves. So I have a saying that I think really distils the most important parts of the relationhip: It is the parent's job to love the child UNCONDITIONALLY, and provided they have done this, it's the child's job to forgive the parent for being human.
The parent should not only love the child unconditionally, but do THEIR best to keep them safe. It also means NOT abusing their children. There may be a history but you KNOW how bad you feel when you were abused, why do it to your own child?
My mother may well love me, but she has pointed out several times when she didn't lift a finger to keep me safe and protected (mentally and emotionally) and she emotionally abused me. I'd say that was "fair-to-bad" parenting, taking into account her history.
Of course I can forgive her that. It doesn't mean I have to like what happened or think she's a good parent though.
Last edited by Ca Plane Pour Moi; March 19th, 2010 at 10:08 PM.
: oooops- conditionally changed to unconditionally!
Ya know Rach, thats really deep thinkin you got goin on. I think my view of it is pretty simplistic - you can give a person all the tools in life, but they have be the ones to wield them.
In my opinion, people can volunteer to be victims, they can let what happened to them drag them down and not strive to do it differently. Or, they can see what they don't want to become. I don't think it entirely comes down to parenting, because bad kids happen to good parents too - so I think its the soul within the child that determines what they do in life.
I dunno - maybe its too late for me to be pondering these kinds of things!
Am I a "good" person in your eyes? Loving, caring, responsive, "good" mother?
I had "fair-to-bad" parents, in my eyes, and was emotionally abused and neglected. This has caused years of depression, low self-worth, lead to anorexia and self-harm... it's not pretty.
I may look good on the outside, but inside I'm a hollow shell of a person.
That's why I want to be a "good" parent - so my DS will at least be beautiful on the inside. Of course I want his actions to beautify him and glorify God, but I want that to come from a place of peace not fear and loathing.
I have witnessed how my MIL has affected my dh. he is lacking emotional intelligence and has a very strained rel/ship with her. i believe that this section of who he is as a 'whole person' has been strongly held back by the way that he has been nurtured, and so i guess in my parenting i want my kids to be the best that they can be. i think that you give them the foundation and then they choose where to go with it. i guess i think our job is to give them the strongest platform to stand on.
It's taken nearly 24 hours to get back but I've had this on my mind most of my day!
I think parenting matters but like most things in life I think parenting consciously & intentionally "well" isn't a guarantee...
As you know I have 5 children - who really couldn't be more different. My oldest was probably parented with the most attatchment parenting style (simply as she is the oldest & there is a large gap so she was my world)... I wonder at times if this has contributed to her intense need for attention. However, I also don't know if that's how her nature would have been.
Having birthed 5 babies their personalities were evident almost immediately!
Ruby needed attention 24/7 my eyes had to be on her & her needs had to be met immediately & this has always been the way. Intensely interested in her surroundings.
Finn was shocked to be in this World & needed reassurance of my presence & love - and still does. Incredibly intelligent toys were very childish to him - he wanted to think! I am sure he is a very old Soul
Lucy was born fast and furiously. She didn't make a sound as she entered the room - just looked at us all as if to say: "mmm so that's who you all are... She had the most tender eyes & was curious about everything... Gentle but spunky & stunningly gorgeous.
Eva was born much like Finn shocked to be here... A little afraid of this world - and she still is but again stunningly gorgeous and quirky - oh so quirky...
Imogen took me time to get to know but her peaceful but stern hold on herself took me by surprise in those first weeks of her life. She was frail but strong & she still is..
What my long story is telling is that they had a nature. I see it as my role, my job, my contract with them (for I believe they chose me & I them) is to nurture their natures. To lead them, help them build a frame work of a Self. They have to fill in the pieces - for that's their journey... I need to provide them with a soft place to fall, a strong & honourable role model in how I deal with the world, people, love, spirituality, friends, strangers etc etc (perhaps this is the biggest and most significant of all). They have watched me Mother their siblings & that is an amazing gift I am grateful for constantly! Sometimes I see them watch me, take it in & play act with their dolls or my oldest daughter comments that she doesn't know how I can be so patient (trust me I don't believe patience is something I have a lot of...). So, I know the seeds are there, growing little shoots... I know now that when I behave childishly, react from my wounded self - that it's how I recover from that that is important. To say I'm sorry - I was having a moment & well let's have a cuppa...
I don't think I have any tricks of the trade - just trying to show them that we always grow and change and evolve. That they cannot rely on me for everything as I will let them down. That there are other people who can help - so part of my job is to ensure they have good adults that they can turn to for support when they can't come to me...
I grew up as the oldest of two daughters. My mother was a very unstable woman who sadly I reflect probably jsut yearned for her husbands devotion. She picked the wrong apple in my Dad. He was married to the police force. He had the communication skills of a yak & the presence of one too!
I never saw kindness from my Mother - I saw anger, jealousy incredible expectations of others. I can remember being very young and turning to her & saying: "why don't you just tell your friend that you're sad at her"... I remember that like it were yesterday... People always "let her down"... She lived through me. I was pushed to play sport as she was sporty... (I am just the antithesis of sporty!!! - I think running is a ridiculous past time - I much rather walk and smell the air!) I wasn't allowed to speak to boys. I won't go into it all and bore you all but my life was quite hellish. I was beaten with straps, spoons. Locked in my room, called names from the window in front of my friends - every night I would pray to any deity that would hear that my life would be better & that it was my job to do it.
My parents divorced when I was 15 - neither wanted me so I was sent to an Uncle who raped me repeatedly. I ran away and my life began...
Why I say all of this is that my nature is determined. My nature is optimistic. Somewhere I knew the nightmare of much of my early life was part of my story. I chose consciously not to allow that to define me. So that I believe really was my nature. No matter how badly I was parented I knew intrinsically that I was able to turn it around.
I had lots of struggles. Lots of issues to over come & like us all I deal with them still. However, many people have stories similar to mine and they don't come out of it well. They perhaps are addicted to drugs, alcohol, sex... They will do anything to be loved.
I think I did all of the above (I wasn't addicted to drugs or sex) - but I drank too much & I yearned for love. I also have and still struggle with a morbid fear of change. Because my life was so unpredictable. All I wanted was the surety that in 12 months I would still be in this house, living my life etc...
I believe that we all have Karma. That we have predetermined lessons to learn/deal with... That opportunity will arise throughout this lifetime to learn them. If we take up the baton & deal we can burn that karma through... Some of it's small some of it's big.
So it is with our children. That is why I think some people will come from "good" (I hate that term but I get you Rach it's hard to find another one... ) families and turn out with big challenges ahead. It's their nature, their path, or their karma.
However, I think personally that we need to be very very conscious in our parenting. We are the fuel pump - and they will always come to us for the rest of our days we will be their wise person. If we can show them unconditional love. Something I say to my two older kids is that if they are ever in any trouble to tell me & if they don't want to they don't have to explain. But just know I am there, I will pick them up from Texas in the middle of the night - just know that I won't ask questions if that's what you want...
We have been given our intricate little characters to teach us and us them... It's no mistake & the honour is to both of us. So, there is a large amount of nature I think & a good sturdy doseage of nurture. Sometimes I have stood back and thought WTF have I done wrong it's all falling apart...
Then before I know it I am bathing in a gossamer glow of how I've got it all so well sorted...
I suppose for me now after nearly 15 years of parenting I get that I fail, I fall short & they actually live through it and so do I...
Some of my children remember the times I fall down very vividly - others not so. That's their nature...
I have also learned that every time I am really triggered by one of them that this is a big learning moment for me... What is it about me... Sometimes now I can even thank them for being a rat bag as it taught me something special...
But yep - as always I ramble on - forgive me it's late, I'm tired and Ive been pondering this through my day...
I think parenting is so incredibly important. I also think that we are born with a nature that perhaps is swayed by the parenting we receive. It could be our saving grace or our curse...
Thank you so much each and every one of you for sharing your thoughts and telling your very personal stories. I have hung on every word and expanded my mind. I appreciate so much that BB is a place where we can do this.
Well Rach, I have thought about this alllllll night last night and today. I doubt I will be as eloquent as the rest of you, but I'll try.
Yes I do.
I totally agree with the PPs who talked about giving the tools for them to utilise in later life.
I have dealt with a whole heap of 'bad' kids. From all sorts of families.
The one thing that separates the kids that come out on top (as a generalisation - there are always exceptions) is a positive role model.
Saying that - the positive role model isn't always the child's biological or legal parent. But the 'parenting' is still there. For example some of the Koori kids have nothing to do with their parents around here, but have great parental role models within their community. I see many kids that get away from their parents for a whole variety of horrendous reasons, and many still gravitate towards someone that is a rolemodel.
I myself are from a 'good' family, I did 'good' things with my life - but those things are totally different to the choices my parents made and have often been in total opposition to what they wanted for me, but the tools they gave me allowed me to do that. I hope for that for my kids.
Holy wow, what a mind blowing thread. My head hurts from thinking this much about an abstract concept
Erm. Will try and get my thoughts out clearly here, bare with me.
I can say, from the experience of myself and my brother, that parenting really does matter. It's amazing, the very subtle effects that it can have on your personality. Of course a bit of it is going to be genetic as well, but as a child, you see the world the way your parents shape it, and it takes a lot of work as an adult to change the inbuilt perception you are left with. It's just the way your brain is wired.
Having said that, this topic scares me.
It scares me how much i am potentially screwing up my children by not micro-managing the aspects of my parenting.
It scares me, how much i may screw them up if I start micro-managing every aspect of my parenting.
And it scares me how totally out of control of the whole thing I really am.
Because, like PP's have said, you can give your kids the tools to work with, but ultimately you have no control over what life throws at them, or how they handle it. And the older they get, the less a cuddle from mummy will fix.
On a side note, for me, emotional resilience- recognising and acknowledging emotions, and learning the tools to deal with them- is something I will continue to focus on as my kids get older, because it's an area I am very weak in, so not necessarily something they will learn well by observation. That is one thing I can attribute to my parent's parenting- emotions were a rare and rationed commodity in the house I grew up, and I intend for it to be different in my own.
Does parenting really matter?
hooley dooley, he is just the pits, one of the most revolting people I have ever meet. I guess you can never know everything about the brother's life experiences, and there might be a reason why he is like that, but I suspect that sometimes, there just is no reason at all. It's just the way it is.
Reply With Quote
She had a shocking upbringing, but her mother was always loving etc she didnt let her past dictate her future... she has worked very high up in governments etc
I have hung on every word and expanded my mind. I appreciate so much that BB is a place where we can do this. 
Bookmarks