Avoiding gender and sexuality 'norms'

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I had a weird upbringing - when I was little it was all football and running, then it was all pink and ponies and dolls (I LOVED CARS! But then I was told "you're a girl" despite the fact I was "supposed" to be a boy and was still being told that), then older still it was lego and chemistry kits with no gender comments... while my sister got make-up and games about shopping or babies. I was "supposed" to be a boy and have a lot of that influence still.

As Dach said, there's good masculinity and bad masculinity. Crying or toys don't make a man (or a woman). I'm bringing my son up with good masculinity and re-enforcing it with praise. I don't mind if he plays house or cars so long as he's happy.

And I buy DS tights too - in winter in a carrier his trousers ride up, why do I want him to have cold legs?

[paradise lost]

on the other hand you have the kind of masculinity that is represented by the rescue services (strentgh, courage, compassion, selflessness, intelligence).

Actually that's the kind of FEMININITY i'd like to encourage too Dach. I think that good qualities are universal in most cases. I know plenty of boorish, stupid, violent women too, unfortunately i live in a poor area and it's pretty rife for everyone to raise their kids to "hit first, ask questions later" - that's both how they treat them and how they expect them to act towards others.

I'm not too worried about DD's role models as she has lots of both sexes. I worry that the most important ones (me, XP) are not up to scratch but i think that's a pretty normal anxiety.

I agree that boys masculinity is to be celebrated and that understanding that when your 5 year old suddenly begins beating other kids up it's hormonal and not behavioural and that in the main so long as he's with others his own age he'll come through it just fine is incredibly useful. BUt will we raise our girls the same way? When my brother was going to parties at 14 my mother gave him condoms "to be safe". When i went on the Pill at 14 i was called "a little ****" and ignored for a month.

Bx

[Phteven]

Actually that's the kind of FEMININITY i'd like to encourage too Dach. I think that good qualities are universal in most cases.

BUt will we raise our girls the same way? When my brother was going to parties at 14 my mother gave him condoms "to be safe". When i went on the Pill at 14 i was called "a little ****" and ignored for a month.

Bx

I totally agree with you there - the thing is because I don't have any daughters I tend to marginalise the issues that people raising girls deal with .

The whole thing with double standards totally bugs me - it's rife in some of the communities in my area. I would hope that my sons will have the same standards for themselves as for women but the thing is at some point our children

Mayaness, ITA agree that there's no need to put gendered clothes on children. My criteria is pretty much is it warm/cool and comfy. Beyond that I don't much care. Imran has long hair and I'm forever getting told what a pretty little thing he is lol. He looks pretty butch to me. I'm not particuarly submissive so I can't really imagine myself imparting that quality to my children.

Re the spiders thing - TBH women who fall into a wimpering heap in the face of an arachnid or small rodent annoy me so if my DH did it I'd be pretty annoyed too (The rule in our house is you can look but you'd better not touch a la The Wiggles - we have a spider conservation zone).

[Smoke Jaguar]

I guess, using the 'bad masculinity' thing and taking it further, there is also a 'bad femininity' to be avoided at the very same time. To me, 'bad masculinity' is power seeking and power assertion, and 'bad femininity' is submission. There is masculinity and femininity without these and that's what I want DS and my other future children to learn and appreciate. No daughter of mine will have reason to believe that men can do something better than she can. Even where they patently can - I will never be the one to say she should back off and let the men do it if she believes she's able.
I am in no way going to suggest to DS that we are all actually androgynous, because that's clearly untrue. However, until he gets a bit older, these are the years when it doesn't actually matter what sex he is, so he doesn't need to play out a gender (sex and gender being two distinct concepts to me) until he's ready. I'm just going to preserve that innocence a bit longer and choose clothes that are fluid and expressive of his character, not his sex or gender. People buy him clothes that are more gender-orientated than I'd choose myself and that's ok - the ones who have the inclination to buy him clothes know what I'm like, so I've never had anything that's been really affronting to my philosophy!
I have a boy with long hair and strangers will often ask what sex he is. He doesnt' care. I don't care. I'm not going to cut his hair so that people can know if he's a boy or a girl. And I'll be asked even when he's wearing his army shirt and jeans, so even clothes aren't enough to tip some people off. Lucky for me, though, I don't mind the confusion, it doesn't offend me and DS can carry on being himself. I also like the long hair because it means no-one DOES come up to DS and start gendering him - they're just not sure what to say and I much prefer that time bought by hesitation from uncertainty!
I hate it when my mum sees DS do something and says "No, don't be a sissy" or "that's for sissies" etc. I abhor it, actually, and wish I could snap those words out of the air so that he never has to hear them.
This is how I see it applying to my family and I know others feel very differently. That's fine, too
ETA yep, Bec, I would also like to think that strength, integrity, courage etc are qualities we can find in any human being. But I'm a raging socialist (I think...) and my mum has fostered these very things in me since infancy. She comes from a culture entrenched in Machismo, so go figure.
How utterly disempowering to be punished for doing exactly the same thing as your brother! I'm afraid that such attitudes still exist I never use that term anymore and haven't for years because I started to question it whilst still in school (probably because I was called that, for no reason, and then wondered who it applied to...and came up with my answer of 'no-one').
My dad travelled a lot when I was younger, so male role models were thin on the ground (also with no relatives this side of the equator!), leaving us girls to form and flex our characters unhindered by overt 'masculinity' in the common sense.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Femininity expresses those good points in different ways, Bec. Men show compassion by solving things, women by empathising. Just for an example. And submission isn't a bad thing, not when it's done correctly. Being submissive doesn't mean that you think someone is better than you. It's acknowledging someone's lead in a situation. I would expect my children to be submissive to me just as I am submissive to DH. That doesn't mean he bosses me about, just that we have a leader in the household, which makes things easier.

Don't for one minute think I do things I dislike because DH tells me to. Yes, we have disagreements but usually solve them with compromise or one coming round to the other's idea. Usually I present DH with choices I like and he picks the one he likes (such as what's for dinner or where we go on a weekend). Bad submission is doing things you don't want - it's like being bullied. And bullying is bad masculinity, just as cattiness and name-calling is bad femininity. Use your powers of gossip for good! Someone is being a bit odd/down and it's mentioned to you in passing, why not organise a meal and take it round to find out what the problem is? That's something men don't usually think to do but women excell at.

OK, so I didn't want to come back to work. But now I'm back I find I'm a lot more patient with DS and play with him more. I value our time more. Some mothers don't need time apart for that. But DS is happy, I get a sit-down (which is great when I'm ill, like now) and we're all better for it.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Like I said, Ryn, I have no problem with how other people conceptualise and adopt ideas of masculinity and femininity, I just don't have to agree with them
The way I view the word 'submission' just doesn't come up with any good manifestations of it. I don't want my kids submissive to me, I want them to have agency and I have resolved that I'm not going to 'train' my DS to be submissive in later life by insisting on it now. And this solely applies to me, I'm just explaining myself a bit further on this point and how I see it. I've got DS under my influence for such a short period of time, so this is where I teach him how to conduct himself with people beyond our family - with confidence in himself and his abilities, trusting his instinct and acting on it. Except for crossing the road on a whim! That's different, he responds perfectly well to a booming 'STOP!'. Sure, this is how lots of people raise their sons, but not their daughters - I'll be doing the same thing, dangly bits or none You may well have another working definition of 'submission' than I do, and the one I have in my head is odious to me. Just to me, though, let me reiterate.
So, whilst I chuckle at people's confusion over DS, I'll be vocal and protective of a daughter more so, because DS will never have the same issues of being told what he needs to look like, what he needs to wear, what he should do with his life. He's already catered for in this society. Girls still are likely to have to put up a fight to do what they want, unfortunately.
ETA: Bath - bloody good question! When I was younger and my dad was at sea, a girl disposed of those things or no-one did! In my household now, we both wear 'pants' and somehow, it works - my from my family of three females to one male and DP from a family of three males to one female.

[Salsa]

thats so true.
I dont know if I ever will have a daughter, but I have considered for half of my life what would be important in how I raise her (should I ever get one) in regards to her gender and society. Things have come a very long way since my grandma was my age and a very long way even since my mum was my age too, but there is still alot to change. It seems in recent years that female are going backwards almost in the way they are being conditioned to think and behave. Its very sad that as society we place so much emphasis on shallow and materialist worthiness. I hate that there is so much prevalance of promescuity and emphasis on appearance rather than personality generated by media. Its another thing I am concerned about for my DS, as I do not want him growing up believing that crap about females or about himself.

[Bathsheba]

I'm going to be really candid. Maybe I need a new perspective but my DH drives me nuts because he is a real "scare bear". To be honest I am often made to "wear the pants" in this family because my DH is fearful of so many things: wildlife (he panicked once when a pelican came too close)... i usually have to deal with a spider in the house... situations like seeing a car accident turn his legs to jelly putting me in the position of needing to tell him to pull it together and dial 000... before i dash toward the accident and help the people inside. Most of the time I feel as if it's me protecting him. This placed a lot of stress on me when i was pregnant. I see my oldest son following in my DH's footsteps. Should this bother me? No one would think these attributes noteworthy if my DH was female. From reading other threads 90% of women demand their husbands dispose of the spider that wanders into their homes. Why is timidity ok with women more than men?

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I don't think it's OK for timidity, as you call it, in either gender.

Both DH and I can sort out spiders - the main challenge is stopping DS trying to play with them! I prefer DH to do it but as he has laughed at me in the past I just do it now.

You have just said that your DH's "femininity" (and I would say it's not good femininity) upsets and stresses you. Surely that means you don't want your son to grow up like this and upset your future DiL? Women are MADE to be protected (don't want to turn this into a religious debate but the Bible says we are), men are MADE to protect us. The world has perverted this, yes, but that doesn't mean that men should be fearful followers and women brave leaders - tbh, women shouldn't be fearful followers either, but men should be leading.

Car accidents are different to spiders though - I know my DH can't cope with anything "medical" whereas I can. That's because he doesn't see it every day, doesn't know what to do. I would have more of a clue but still not enough of one to help beyond comforting and calling an ambulance/the police. But everyday things, the man should be strong and lead.

eta: Mayaness, I expect anyone living in my house to obey my rules. Just as when I live with someone else I obey their rules. Learning how to take instruction is important to a boy and a girl, as it helps when older because they can understand how to give instructions.

OK, so with DS he knows what is and is not allowed (such as don't play near the oven when Mama's cooking, we hold hands to cross the road, we don't re-wire the TV in the middle of Dr Who...) and tests those limits. That's healthy. But he has to live by the rules. Without rules now how will he make them? I don't expect cowering submission but a respectful one.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Well, that may illustrate our fundamental difference of opinion on this one, Ryn - I cannot believe that women were made to be protected by men in the way you do. The biblical rendition of sex differences just doesn't fly with me. The evolutionary one does, and I was raised to heartily reject anything sniffing of evolutionary ideology! I absolutely can never believe that men do the leading. I think I have a fundamentally different approach to parenting, too, and that's ok Suffice to say the difference of opinion doesn't look like it will be resolved here. And also suffice to say that my thinking on these things informs how I deal with gender and sexuality stereotypes.
Someone else here noted that they have a homosexual relative. We have a similar situation and an older nephew of mine is just so damn evolved about politics of discrimination...and he's only 12! I can only hope my DS follows suit.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

That's fine, Mayaness - I really respect your parenting. It's different to mine in some ways, but different isn't bad.

I think we have many similarities, only differing reasons behind them. I hope we have similarities, I think you sound like you have a good approach and one that I'd like to have! Evolutionary differences don't make sense to me, but hormonal ones do, and tbh it amounts to the same thing. I don't believe you can raise a boy to be a girl or a girl to be a boy, but you can raise them without fear or prejudice and let them be who they are. Yes, I'm making DS aware that, as a man, I expect him to look out for and look after women (and no doubt his wife will apreciate it, she wouldn't marry him if she didn't), but that doesn't belittle women, as we find it rather difficult to ask for help as a rule. Other than that he can do as he wishes. If he wants to be a house-husband that's fine. If he wants to be a train-driver, that's fine. If he wants to take over the world as an evil genius, that's only fine if I get an evil island paradise too LOL.

eta: Salsa, I agree, there's too much emphasis placed on the superficial and not the real. Although I am guilty of telling every baby, toddler and young child how gorgeous they are! Physical looks don't bring happiness anyway, you're always worried that it will fail. At least learning and a personality you can build on! OK, so your body you can too, but who wants a plastic body?

[Salsa]

Rosehip - I heard an interview on BBC1 radio years ago (steve wright in the afternoon). Vanessa Williams was the guest. (She was a pop singer back then, now shes an actress on Ugly Betty - just incase no one knows who she is ).
The presenters in the studio all seemed awed by her very attractive features and asked he something along the lines of her being told as she grew up how beautiful looking she was. And she said that she never was. She said her parents never praised her on her looks, only on her practical and academic achievements.
As a teenager that really struck me. Especially probably because I knew that I was told alot growing up by my family that I was very pretty, but never really felt much emphasis was put into encouraging my personality or brains.
It was about 17 yrs ago that I heard the interview but this bits stuck in my memory all this time!
I remember it when I`m sometimes looking at my son and thinking 'what a good looking fella'. It reminds me not to mention that out loud as much as I think it - as he already hears from strangers all the time how 'pretty' (its the longhair lol) he is.

[paradise lost]

To me the only true "inity" (femin or mascul) is there in the absence of the opposite sex. So much of modern "inity" is about how we respond to the OTHER sex. Men protect women? When there are no men around WOMEN protect women/themselves. Women nurture? When there are no women around men manage to feed and clothe themselves and will even *gasp* hug one another. XP manages to nurture DD during her time with him just great.

FOr DP and i (who do not yet live together full-time so you may all chug salt while you read this one ) so far we seem to do it on a best-qualified basis. If i'm struggling with the home wifi network DP deals with it - he's a software engineer. If DD is starving i deal with it - i know how to cook WAY better and more nutritious food than him (equally he has me learning java and i have him learning new recipes all the time). I have more practical skills, because of my life experiences, than him. So i do more of the practical things, but he earns enough that i won't have to work out of the home when we buy our house because he's so damn good at his job. Also he has a car and is the master of "making things easy" - he just sorts out whatever needs doing in such a way that you mention it once and then it's done. While i'm bathing DD he tidies the rest of her stuff away and does the dishes so we can just be together when she's in bed. I feel like a team-mate on a relatively well-run team.

If he is feeling low i am dominant and caring, if i am feeling low HE is dominant and caring. We try to meet the team needs together. We even talk about ourselves as a team! LOL.

The only place i'm submissive rather than equal is in the bedroom. That is at MY request and works great for us (probably because i'm equal/dominant everywhere else). To me that's such an individual dynamic, it's not really about gender roles at all.

Bx