Article: Suck On This

[*Efjay*]

As a mother, do you you really believe it is ever possible to remove yourself emotionally from any issue concerning your children? That is what makes us Mother's.

Yes I do. I do it everytime I have to leave my kids at home to go do something they can't be a part of. I know they are safe as they are only left with their Dad. But The tears & the "we'll miss you though mum" are all put into play. But if I can't remove myself emotionally, how would I get anything done?

When I say you need to remove your self emotionally. I mean from any guilt you may already be harbouring from your choice on how to fed your baby. If you are infact 100% comforatable with your choice to use Formula, why does it bother you so much that Bfing is being made to been seen as normal & that formula feeding risks are being made known.
I too think the "baby Killer" thing is over the top but I also think in the context in which it was used its not, because in some cases such as third world countries it really is a baby killer. There is a picture that I would love to be able to track down of a women holding her twins. One (the boy) is at the breast & the other is on a bottle. This mother was told she could not BFed both babies. There for she breastfed the boy & shortly after the photo was taken the little bottle fed girl died. The photo shows a very healthy looking breastfed bub & a very thin sickly bottlefed bub. This was in a third world country & the mother was miss informed & yes formual feeding killed her baby.

Yes people see smoking & formula feeding in 2 different lights but at the end of the day they are both un natural things to be putting into your body & they both carry risks. So why are they seen in a different light to each other?

[Astrid]

What is in your face about it in public, is the comments that bottle feeding women get, and the holier than thou attitude of some women who BF.

I am sorry, but breastfeeding mothers cope it just as much from the "I/my child etc turned out OK and they were FF". My personal experience is that breastfeeding is seen as something that if it is to be done at all, it is to be only done for a short time (6 weeks). Too many people seem to be offended by the fact that I breastfeed, as if is is an insult to them, well frankly, they should just get over it. **

We are all judged as mothers for any decision that we make, please not let it turn into a "well I'm judged more than you" argument.

** This is in reference to real life, not BB

[Sal]

I think it is sad that people are getting offended about pro breastfeeding information and discussions. I am now getting to the point that I think I should remove my ticker in case it offends anyone. I hate being made to feel ashamed that I managed breastfeed.

I don't see how Astrid or FionaJill took the earlier posts to be from people taking offence at pro breastfeeding information. Myself, Ryn, Sherie, and Cailin point out that just printing 'statistics' and mentioning 'studies' is not gospel and as everyone knows there are "lies, damn lies and statistics". I for one want to see hard science, not emotional writing. BW and B456 actually express that it is mothers who FF are in some way made to feel quite inferior, yet there may be valid reasons why BF is not possible (and lets face it, who in today's western society has a wet nurse or BF sister on hand to BF these babies?)

B456 makes an excellent point: if I were to pick a greater evil, it's the psychological damage done by poor parenting rather than anything from FF. No one is trying to make BF mothers feel like they ought to hide their tickers - it is FF mothers who are under fire here.

[*Efjay*]

I have found that picture if anyone wants to see it.

[BellyBelly]

I think telling someone to 'get over it' is a bit harsh, often there are underlying issues... You wouldn't tell someone with depression to just stop being miserable and be happy - its complex... let's not get into a who took it this way and that, feel free to make your own comments and share your experiences but lets not turn on each other and make it personal, okay? We are all in charge of our own emotions and have varying interpretations of everything.

[Astrid]

Ok, I was not making a personal comment about anyone on BB, I was referring to mostly to my real life experience. Sorry I should have clarified my statement a bit more to say 'IRL"

[*Efjay*]

BW and B456 actually express that it is mothers who FF are in some way made to feel quite inferior, yet there may be valid reasons why BF is not possible (and lets face it, who in today's western society has a wet nurse or BF sister on hand to BF these babies?)

B456 makes an excellent point: if I were to pick a greater evil, it's the psychological damage done by poor parenting rather than anything from FF. No one is trying to make BF mothers feel like they ought to hide their tickers - it is FF mothers who are under fire here.

Well from my point of view BFing mothers are also made to feel guilty or as if we are doing something wrong also. As Astrid said, we all cop flack about our choices regardless of what they are. I mean gees a law was passed to protect a mothers right to breastfed in public!
I personally beleive as I pointed out with BW situation that breastfeeding isn't always the best option. BUT as long as its an informed choice. This is why I also gave BW the number for Mother safe, as they are the most upto date people to ask about medication during PG & bfing. BW's Dr may tell her these drugs are bad while BFing, but infact they may be fine. I'm not saying her Dr is wrong. He just might not have the most current information. Alot of drugs are automatically put on the not while BFing list, simply because the information at hand isn't the current. Side tracked there sorry.
I can't comment of B456's situation as I don't actually know her reasons behind not breastfeeding. But I am sure it was a choice made out of love for her child & what was best in her situation.

There is a link in my www, if you would like to see information that isn't based on emotional writing.

[Sal]

Astrid and FionaJill, I'm actually on your (pro BF) side. And it stinks that BF mothers are ever made to feel uncomfortable (it's like the misogynist idea that exists in some societies that menstruating women are unclean).

Education, education, eduation! And support, support, support! It would be lovely for the formula section of the baby aisle in the supermarkets to be a very very small one, with compassion being felt for those mothers who buy it for their babies.

[bon]

As a mother who bottlefed both her babies I have been through all the emotions associated - guilt, grief, feelings of failure, inadequacy etc. but they were all my own emotions, created by me, and I was harder on myself than anyone else was when I chose to use formula. And I do acknowledge that it was a choice as despite my personal diffculties with BF, physically I could still do it. I just decided not to any longer. It has taken me a long time to come to terms with that fact as it is like saying "yes I chose not to feed my baby the best possible food he could have in favour of an artificial substitute and I did so because of my own personal problems". It sounds so selfish doesn't it. I do find it difficult to think about it in that way as it brings back all those old pesky emotions and inner doubts. Really, is it any wonder bottlefeeding mums can be sensitive about it? None of us here would ever try to say that BF is not best. We all know it is. We do not turn a blind eye to the facts but do you really know how demoralising it can be to be told that because you feed your baby formula that he will be dumber and sicker than children that are breastfed? Of course you want to avoid hearing that even if it were true. (And in my case it's not, at least up to now it hasn't been). It's the same as when BF mothers are made to feel guilty because their baby is not as big as other babies, or doesn't fit the 'average' as set down by percentile charts. It feels horrible even if you have a perfectly healthy bouncy baby. I do not blame bottlefeeding mothers, or for that matter, mothers on a whole, for being defensive about their choices. We all want to do what is best by our kids.

As for the article I was not offended by it and agree that in the respect of pushing formula on mothers in third world countries to the detriment of breastfeeding, formula is a 'baby killer'. But if you take it as a blanket statement than it is deliberately provocative and is certainly offensive.

[Melbo]

Bon, no, it doesn't sound like a selfish decision. I mean, I could have persisted with the expressing I guess for a bit longer but nothing would ever have changed the fact that my baby just wouldn't suck. No matter how much I attempted to stimulate the flow with an electric breast pump, it was never going to work as well than if the child had at least the desire to get food from my breasts in some form.

I arranged to take 12 months maternity leave specifically so that I could breastfeed my son exclusively for that time. I wanted to breastfeed so that I could protect him from the asthma/hayfever I had suffered as a child. I realise that there is no guarantee that he won't have the same problems even if I had breastfed but I wanted to cover all the bases. When breastfeeding fell over early on, I was devastated really.

I have nothing else to add to what you've already said ... it's pretty much how I feel.

[BellyBelly]

I just want to re-inforce what Jillian has just posted, I think this is going around in circles a bit. I posted this here with a warning that it's an emotive issue and pro-breastfeeding, I am am begining to feel that this thread is being taken over by those who choose to bottlefeed and are angered by this article.

Please remember I created this specific forum for those who choose natural choices (I am not saying either is better) but it seems like always and in other areas, those who prefer natural choices are not posting, and I don't blame them as it's turning into a debate driven by emotion. Like I once said in a birth post, I think things happen like this because issues are not dealt with. Sure we might say they are, but I think there are unresolved issues in the background that need to de-briefed. Often women feel silly having to de-brief birth or breastfeeding or whatever, but the world would be a better place if we could! If we've dealt with these issues, we can take things less seriously and look at them with a different perspective.

I do accept that the first page is hard hitting - but the article has some great facts and information and I hoped people could see past that and see the general message they are trying to get across. The majority of the article is about education and support.

Please can we tone it down or I will just lock this thread, it's unfair to those who wish to discuss aspects of it without making it personal - no offence to those who want to comment, but I did warn everyone at the start and I did post it here for a reason.

[bon]

The article didn't make me angry at all I found it quite interesting however I can see how it would make people feel angry or defensive, even though I don't think the intention of the article is to send all FF mothers on a guilt trip.

Mel and Brooke - I know it wasn't a selfish decision and I don't feel that way at all anymore but I think I did to an extent at first. Along with everything else! Nobody made me feel that way I just felt it myself.

Kelly - I didn't post here in order to justify my choice to FF, I don't feel the need to do that with anybody. I was trying to make the point that I understand why some FF mothers feel defensive about the whole issue. That was in response to other posts made. The article itself got me thinking and it has actually in weird way made me feel more confident about my ability to BF the next baby.

[BellyBelly]

Brooke, I tried to steer it back on track, but obviously it's not been working.

Why are women allowed to be passionate &emotional about proBF, but not FF or in responde to comments upon it?

You can be passionate about whatever you like, it's free speech in a free world. But this forum is specifically for those pro-bf'ing. I don't think that FF'ing should be something taken lightly though, as most say, it's a decision that was a difficult one.

It's like vaginal birth - you can openly go on about bad vaginal births and how it was a nightmare and never again, but say that about caesars and it's taboo...

I've tried so hard to be diplomatic and fair about this but again this is why I created these specific forums. I run a gentle parenting site, yet even in a gentle parenting site, in a specifically made gentle parenting forum, those who are pro-bf are not able to post freely without competition. Do you think this is fair? I did make guidelines in regards to these three/four specific forums on BellyBelly, I hope everyone has read them.

[Liz]

Kelly - When I first read the warning in your first post, it did cross my mind that it was a bit unfair that it's likely to offend FF mums, but that if they were to say so the topic would be locked.

But after reading what you just posted, I understand that it was simply an article to inform us of the nature of FF, and any argument against that.. ie pro-FF goes against the nature of this site, so isn't really welcome.

I agree there was propaganda in it, like the picture of the baby & bottle.. but propaganda is designed to draw attention and that's exactly what it's done.

I too feel judged for having such success at breastfeeding.. to the point where I dont' like to say that I've had no problems.. for fear of making other people defensive. The same goes for other gentle things I'm doing.. such as no CC. All these natural, gentle techniques go "underground" because other people who don't use them get defensive and throw very rude judgmental comments out there. Even my use of cloth nappies is almost a secret amongst my peers, because I got sick of the looks of horror.

So I actually applaud these articles putting it out there and setting matters straight where it's been distorted in the past. Misinformed mums have been encouraged to FF when they really could have breastfed.. but emotions and doubt caused them to give up too quickly for fear of starving their babies etc etc. Emphasis needs to be put on persevering and trusting our bodies and our babies. We trusted our bodies to grow the baby in the first place... and thats a far greater task if you ask me.

[BellyBelly]

Ivana, just to clarify, I am not at all saying those who formula feed are not welcome. This site will support anyone no matter what they do, but we will not specifically promote formula feeding. This doesn't mean I don't agree with it or support it but I think if anything, it's breastfeeding that needs promotion, we all know that if there are complications we can use formula and that's fine. Having said that, I don't even promote breasfeeding specifically, in fact I post gentle and non-gentle articles on BB all the time, just to share and to get a range of perspectives. Obviously I posted this article here in the gentle forums to get some pro-breastfeeding perspectives knowing that it would stir up a storm elsewhere. That doesn't mean they can't be negative about the article or we can have a good old pow-wow about how bad formula is. The thing I love about BB is that we have so many intelligent women here from all walks of life who make interesting contributions, and I love hearing them. But sometimes it gets too emotional, or things get taken the wrong way so it needs extra steering or moderating. It's sad because I really did try had to have a discussion about it without anyone needing to become defensive, but I guess it's a hard task. My passion is for informing and empowering women, I think we have access to far too much information of the wrong kind. It's too easy to publish anything these days and I think there needs to be more of the right information out there. Maybe one day...

[*Efjay*]

I have looked back over this thread & am pretty comfortable that I haven't gone off topic here. If I have I don't think it was in bad way. My replies have all been focused on the point that articals like these aren't to make FFers guilty but to provide the information that everyone should know about a product that carries risks. If my reply wasn't about this dierectly it was a reply to someone elses comments. I am allowed my 2 cents worth aren't I?

B456, Yes I own a microwave & yes I have hairspray & probably do or have the other things you mentioned. But I think you missed my point. I do know the health risks involved with these products & I have chosen to use them. Just like I know the health risks involved with using Formula. All I am trying to get across is that everyone deserves to know the information that is available about the pros & cons of using a product. So why is it so bad that this same information is being made available about formula? Imagine the back lash that would happen if no one was ever told about the health risks that come with using a microwave. I honestly fail to see the difference.

I totally understand that not all mothers can or want to breastfed & as I have said, its fine to formula feed as long as you have been able to make an informed choice. How can you do that if you don't have all the information available?

A few have refered to my "turn a blind eye" comment & it has been taken the wrong way. I don't mean all formula feeding mums are turning a blind eye to the fact breast is best. It was more a comment about those who refuse to accept that there are risks involved with using formula. I really don't think that with the lack of support & education that is out (well not out) there about Bfing, that they really have the time to create lies about Formula? Its not misleading or wrong to say that on a whole babies who are not BFed are at an increased risk of illness. Maybe I have missinterpreted what the FFed has said, but thats who I took it.

this thread really is going around in circles & I don't think I have anymore I can add without adding to that circlular motion even more. (yes i know I am one that has already added to the circular flow. Even more so by posting this but I felt I needed too.)

maybe this thread would be better off locked.

[Rouge]

Awww guys I wasn't directing my "some people may get offended" at any of you in particular. I meant that the whole killing your child if you give it formula was a bit extreme. I HATE the fact that if you BF you must automatically hate FF'ers and vice versa. Its a wee bit silly! I've done both LOL! And I'm definitely pro BF, but I am still sensitive to those who would have dearly loved to have BF and for whatever reason couldn't or those who choose to FF for whatever reason! Assumptions suck on any level! And it would be great if we could all hug and kiss and not take things too personally but unfortunately thats not the society we live in, sad but true. My only issue with the article was the bit about killing your child by giving them formula, thats it. Other than that I thought it was an interesting article and regardless I love anything that gets people talking/thinking! I think we shouldn't allow companies like Nestle to get away with what they do, I don't think we should let medical professionals get away with incorrect or bad advice and I think there should be way more education out there for the parents who do want to BF!

I know you didn't want it to be a debate Kel, Sorry matey! I was just giving my honest view of the article not in anyway meant to be a for or against BF thing iykwim!

*hugs*
Cailin

[BellyBelly]

I think Cailin makes a great point there, just because you are pro something, it doesn't automatically mean you are anti something.

So okay guys, lets move on now! Please only post if you have any new comments to add about the article in particular, no more clarifications are required anymore. If you wish to debate the issue further you can do so offline. Thanks for understanding.