IVF sceptic? Looking to hear from others with similar experiences.

[Highly sceptical]

Just a follow-up to what I wrote above, here is my email address should anyone wish to get in touch:

communicationvoid at gmail dot com

[amber]

I think comparing the human body to a motor is perhaps not an accurate way of looking at things.
The human body is incredibly complex and there can be so many reasons pregnancy doesn't eventuate - unlike a car which has limited causes for a motor breaking down.

I'm sorry you've had such a horrible time with the clinics you've been to. IVF is never good. And sometimes I'm not sure if the staff of those clinics know they can have such an impact on people - even down to the receptionists.

I agree with you that IVF is certainly a money making business. But I don't think that is all they are. And I don't think a clinic would compromise your chances of success in order to have you come back for a repeat procedures.

I hope you find success in your journey and I'm sorry it has bought you frustration.

[butterfly_warrior]

I get the feeling that your dissatisfaction with your treatment during IVF comes from your pre-conceived notions and expectations. The human body is much, much more complex than a motor vehicle and comparing it to one is something I find somewhat insulting. Perhaps it is because I have dealt with chronic illness for about ten years now and understand a little bit more about how the medical world works, it's certainly not a world of absolutes. I've had an arthritis condition for many years now, and still nobody can tell me what it is - they can tell me that it's there (so I know I'm not imagining it!), but not give a name to it. It can be similar for infertility. The reasons can be many and varied - some they have names for, some they don't have names for just yet. They can give a name to my reason for infertility, they can give a name to my husband's reason for infertility, but just like my arthritis, they can't give a name to the reason I keep miscarrying. They can only look at the symptoms and try to fix them.

As for the reason there is more IVF done here in Australia than there is in the US - I would honestly have to say that the price difference DOES come into it. With government subsidies here, IVF is something accessible by many. In the US, it's accessibly to only a few. Adoption processes in the US are also much simpler, straightforward and quicker than here in Australia, so for a lot of people there's a much more attractive alternative to IVF with a guaranteed baby at the end of it. Adoption in Australia is just not that accessible, nor quick, nor simple - be it local adoption or inter-country adoption.

I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with your IVF doctors. But I can honestly say that they are NOT all like that. I will admit that you do often have to push for more tests or more treatment to figure things out, but from what I have observed, the IVF doctors are really only willing to do the same thing time after time with no changes if the patient is content to let them.

BW

[redlady]

Hi,

I hear the anger in your voice and everyone has the right to get angry.

We know the reason for us not getting pregnant. Dh sperm not viable. FS has told us he would try his best to get us pregnant but that there are no gaurentees just like normal pregancy. I accept that.

Im a little upset they are treating it as a business. I have found one clinic that doesn't run it for profit. I like that.

I hope you seek a counsellor that may be able to help you with your anger its not good to bottle it up inside.

Redlady

[Baby Dreamtime]

In answer to your question 'did my FS ever ask the question 'why can't I have a child'' it is uneqivocably YES, and I thank her every day for being willing to push the envelop with me and my circumstances and for looking at me as a person and not just a number.

Thank you Dr Julie Lindstrom .

I don't think you can lump all FSs in the same boat. My FS took me on after repeated failures at another clinic, I was a great challenge and certainly not good for her stats.

I wish you all the best with which ever direction you choose to go forward with.

[briggsy's girl]

My question is unusual and I would ask only people respond to it who agree with my proposition because they have experienced similar treatment I?m about to describe. I think it is pointless to be responded to from people who have been happy with what they?ve received from their IVF providers.

why ask for posts from people who ONLY agree with your stand? are you seekin intelligent debate and experience? or simply validation for your anger at the situation in which you find yourself?




i wont say you are wrong in being angry - no doubt you are very frustrated - but to try simplifying and comparing the human body to the motor of a car is just ridiculous. and insulting to EVERY medical professional/scientist (no matter their field) - i'm sure they appreciate having their years of study and research and experience compared to an apprenticeship! have you ever engaged in even the most basic studies of human anatomy and physiology? it's not a simple case of looking at the human body and one size fits all. lets face it, the reproductive functions of the human body are nothing like the functions of a V6!

to answer your questions:

At any time, during any of your procedures, did your doctor state the anything like the following in plain, unequivocal English?

? ?You are here because you can not have a child. YES

? There IS a reason/s why this not happening. Not ?Luck of the draw? or ?Some women have difficulties? but an absolute, tangible, biological reason you can not have a baby. YES

? Therefore, as your doctor, my promise to you is that I will find out what this reason/s is, tell you what the treatments are and then we will together, follow the steps that I believe are best suited to correcting this problem in your particular case. YES

? And when I find the reason and I will, and if it is not able to be corrected, I will tell you that too. YES

For readers of this post, whether you gave birth after your first treatment or are still at it on your tenth, ask yourself: Has your doctor ever told you anything even vaguely resembling this? YES YES YES

Or have they instead been completely incurious regarding the crucial starting point of infertility, which is ?Why?? NO - both myself and my husband had testing following initial appt. treatment wasnt discussed until second appt when those test results were available. this was on top of having test results from both gp and gyne before even getting to FS

Why can?t you have a child? we were told what was preventing me getting pregnant, causing miscarriages when i did get pregnant, and we worked together to find the combination of treatments that got us a baby

If someone can?t even identify the problem, then if you have a baby after repeated procedures, it is attributable to one thing only. unexplained infertlity is CRAP - there is no other way to put it. it's hard on everyone involved. you simply cant pinpoint the reason - is it metabolic? is it immune? are the embryo's simply not strong enough?

And that?s luck. conception has never been an exact science and it wont be in our lifetime (or many beyond ours). too many aspects have to align perfectly and some of that is simply beyond our control - you can have a perfect quality embryo, a healthy looking lining - and, for reasons beyond scientific explanation, it wont take, while a weak looking embryo will. go figure. so yes, luck plays a huge part

To conclude, what I would like to read are comments from those who have suffered similarly to us, the key reason I believe begins with the fundamental point that their doctor never asked which is: ?Why? Why can?t you have a baby??

if, as you state, this is a business (and really, what in todays society isn't?), have you, as the consumer, asked these questions yourself. have you investigated beyond the infotmation you were given by your cklinic, there are aspects which MAY contribute to infertility that are not routinrly tested for due to expense and the fact they are unlikely but poosible (NK testing etc) - they are only performed by a few doctors within Au

I?d like to read others views that have experienced this callous and unprofessional treatment and also if it?s permitted by the forum?s administrators, I?d like to be Private Messaged to meet others in Melbourne who have suffered from this behaviour, to hear their perspectives.

there are much more constructive reasons for catching up with other couples with fertility issues... support, understanding - why go out of your way to try and inflame people against the system so many of us need? but hey, whatever floats your boat

And if anyone thinks I?m ?crazy?, consider this, if the population of United States is 15 times larger that Australia which it is, how is it that Australia has 10 times, I repeat, 10 times, the number of IVF procedures carried out each year?

And please, don?t tell me that it?s just the price difference.

ditto BW's statement - look at octomum - she put back all her embryos. to the potential harm of herself and her baby's. why? cos she couldnt afford additional treatment or storage fees. ivf in the statesis BIG business, isnt subsidised and costs a fortune. you either have a high income or you mortgage everything t afford treatment. adoption or surrogacy are cheaper options


FWIW - i underwent treatment through one of the melbourne clinics. i was stimmed 8 times. i lost 5 babies. i forked over a crap load of money. i knew i was dealing with a business and i treated it as such. i was the consumer and i asked every question that came to mind and then some. i wasnt always happy with my treatment - how can you be when things dont work? - but i never felt i was in any way "just another source of income" for them

[Persephone1]

:yeahthat:

I agree with BG, BDT and BW.

Yes, we were told why we can't conceive (male factor infertility)

Yes, our FS has explained the reasons to us, and discussed with us our options for treatment. He has made recommendations and offered advice. But the final decision was up to us. Our FS was supportive of us trying natural methods before turning to IVF, because that's what we wanted to do.

We're now possibly looking into the realms of unexplained fertility (as well as the male factor infertility). FS has been very open about this possibility, and explained to us his limitations in helping us get pregnant. I'm not a motorcar, and my body does what it likes, despite the best possible IVF treatment. There is no natural selection in motor vehicle mechanics - my body does things that my FS (and I) cannot control.

And our FS has shared our anticipation, hope and frustration throughout this journey.

I agree with BG that it seems a bit silly to open up a thread, make lots of provocative statements, and then tell people not to respond unless they agree with you.

I also emphatically agree that it would be very sad if your only reason for wanting to meet up with other infertile couples is to discuss the shortfalls of IVF treatment. That's certainly not why I'm on BB.

[MummaSue]

I agree with what everyone else has said. I feel that it is unfair to open up these questions to only people who agree with you.
I feel the anger in your post and it is most unfortunate that you and your wife have been through this experience but I have to say that I don't think that all clinics are the way that you perceive them to be. The fact that you say you've been to 2 large Melbourne clinics, perhaps this is why you feel the way you do? Like a number?
How much research did you do into these clinics? You sound like the kind of person who would look into them thoroughly before making a decision - which is the way that it should be! I wonder why you chose those clinics.

Australia is the world leader in its IVF practices and even though the first IVF baby was conceived in the UK, Australia was a very close second and is more ahead in practices and research than anywhere else in the world. I do believe that cost has a lot to do with the fact that there are so many treatments done in Australia. I am from the UK and know that if I went privately for IVF, I'd be paying more than double than what I do here.

I think that you are right to ask all of these questions, but feel that if you and your wife are to continue down this road, then you need to find a clinic and a specialist who are going to answer all of the questions that you've asked us, to your satisfaction. Human beings are the least fertile beings on the planet. FACT. Sometimes there can be no explanation as to why someone can't have a child. It's unfortunate but a fact of life.

I have asked all of the questions that you have in your post and have been given more than satisfactory answers. My Dr is a very thorough clinician who I trust completely with my issues. But if I wasn't happy, I'd go elsewhere.


I truly hope that you get the answers you are looking for soon.
Sue