IVF sceptic? Looking to hear from others with similar experiences.

[briggsy's girl]

My question is unusual and I would ask only people respond to it who agree with my proposition because they have experienced similar treatment I?m about to describe. I think it is pointless to be responded to from people who have been happy with what they?ve received from their IVF providers.

why ask for posts from people who ONLY agree with your stand? are you seekin intelligent debate and experience? or simply validation for your anger at the situation in which you find yourself?




i wont say you are wrong in being angry - no doubt you are very frustrated - but to try simplifying and comparing the human body to the motor of a car is just ridiculous. and insulting to EVERY medical professional/scientist (no matter their field) - i'm sure they appreciate having their years of study and research and experience compared to an apprenticeship! have you ever engaged in even the most basic studies of human anatomy and physiology? it's not a simple case of looking at the human body and one size fits all. lets face it, the reproductive functions of the human body are nothing like the functions of a V6!

to answer your questions:

At any time, during any of your procedures, did your doctor state the anything like the following in plain, unequivocal English?

? ?You are here because you can not have a child. YES

? There IS a reason/s why this not happening. Not ?Luck of the draw? or ?Some women have difficulties? but an absolute, tangible, biological reason you can not have a baby. YES

? Therefore, as your doctor, my promise to you is that I will find out what this reason/s is, tell you what the treatments are and then we will together, follow the steps that I believe are best suited to correcting this problem in your particular case. YES

? And when I find the reason and I will, and if it is not able to be corrected, I will tell you that too. YES

For readers of this post, whether you gave birth after your first treatment or are still at it on your tenth, ask yourself: Has your doctor ever told you anything even vaguely resembling this? YES YES YES

Or have they instead been completely incurious regarding the crucial starting point of infertility, which is ?Why?? NO - both myself and my husband had testing following initial appt. treatment wasnt discussed until second appt when those test results were available. this was on top of having test results from both gp and gyne before even getting to FS

Why can?t you have a child? we were told what was preventing me getting pregnant, causing miscarriages when i did get pregnant, and we worked together to find the combination of treatments that got us a baby

If someone can?t even identify the problem, then if you have a baby after repeated procedures, it is attributable to one thing only. unexplained infertlity is CRAP - there is no other way to put it. it's hard on everyone involved. you simply cant pinpoint the reason - is it metabolic? is it immune? are the embryo's simply not strong enough?

And that?s luck. conception has never been an exact science and it wont be in our lifetime (or many beyond ours). too many aspects have to align perfectly and some of that is simply beyond our control - you can have a perfect quality embryo, a healthy looking lining - and, for reasons beyond scientific explanation, it wont take, while a weak looking embryo will. go figure. so yes, luck plays a huge part

To conclude, what I would like to read are comments from those who have suffered similarly to us, the key reason I believe begins with the fundamental point that their doctor never asked which is: ?Why? Why can?t you have a baby??

if, as you state, this is a business (and really, what in todays society isn't?), have you, as the consumer, asked these questions yourself. have you investigated beyond the infotmation you were given by your cklinic, there are aspects which MAY contribute to infertility that are not routinrly tested for due to expense and the fact they are unlikely but poosible (NK testing etc) - they are only performed by a few doctors within Au

I?d like to read others views that have experienced this callous and unprofessional treatment and also if it?s permitted by the forum?s administrators, I?d like to be Private Messaged to meet others in Melbourne who have suffered from this behaviour, to hear their perspectives.

there are much more constructive reasons for catching up with other couples with fertility issues... support, understanding - why go out of your way to try and inflame people against the system so many of us need? but hey, whatever floats your boat

And if anyone thinks I?m ?crazy?, consider this, if the population of United States is 15 times larger that Australia which it is, how is it that Australia has 10 times, I repeat, 10 times, the number of IVF procedures carried out each year?

And please, don?t tell me that it?s just the price difference.

ditto BW's statement - look at octomum - she put back all her embryos. to the potential harm of herself and her baby's. why? cos she couldnt afford additional treatment or storage fees. ivf in the statesis BIG business, isnt subsidised and costs a fortune. you either have a high income or you mortgage everything t afford treatment. adoption or surrogacy are cheaper options


FWIW - i underwent treatment through one of the melbourne clinics. i was stimmed 8 times. i lost 5 babies. i forked over a crap load of money. i knew i was dealing with a business and i treated it as such. i was the consumer and i asked every question that came to mind and then some. i wasnt always happy with my treatment - how can you be when things dont work? - but i never felt i was in any way "just another source of income" for them

[Persephone1]

:yeahthat:

I agree with BG, BDT and BW.

Yes, we were told why we can't conceive (male factor infertility)

Yes, our FS has explained the reasons to us, and discussed with us our options for treatment. He has made recommendations and offered advice. But the final decision was up to us. Our FS was supportive of us trying natural methods before turning to IVF, because that's what we wanted to do.

We're now possibly looking into the realms of unexplained fertility (as well as the male factor infertility). FS has been very open about this possibility, and explained to us his limitations in helping us get pregnant. I'm not a motorcar, and my body does what it likes, despite the best possible IVF treatment. There is no natural selection in motor vehicle mechanics - my body does things that my FS (and I) cannot control.

And our FS has shared our anticipation, hope and frustration throughout this journey.

I agree with BG that it seems a bit silly to open up a thread, make lots of provocative statements, and then tell people not to respond unless they agree with you.

I also emphatically agree that it would be very sad if your only reason for wanting to meet up with other infertile couples is to discuss the shortfalls of IVF treatment. That's certainly not why I'm on BB.

[MummaSue]

I agree with what everyone else has said. I feel that it is unfair to open up these questions to only people who agree with you.
I feel the anger in your post and it is most unfortunate that you and your wife have been through this experience but I have to say that I don't think that all clinics are the way that you perceive them to be. The fact that you say you've been to 2 large Melbourne clinics, perhaps this is why you feel the way you do? Like a number?
How much research did you do into these clinics? You sound like the kind of person who would look into them thoroughly before making a decision - which is the way that it should be! I wonder why you chose those clinics.

Australia is the world leader in its IVF practices and even though the first IVF baby was conceived in the UK, Australia was a very close second and is more ahead in practices and research than anywhere else in the world. I do believe that cost has a lot to do with the fact that there are so many treatments done in Australia. I am from the UK and know that if I went privately for IVF, I'd be paying more than double than what I do here.

I think that you are right to ask all of these questions, but feel that if you and your wife are to continue down this road, then you need to find a clinic and a specialist who are going to answer all of the questions that you've asked us, to your satisfaction. Human beings are the least fertile beings on the planet. FACT. Sometimes there can be no explanation as to why someone can't have a child. It's unfortunate but a fact of life.

I have asked all of the questions that you have in your post and have been given more than satisfactory answers. My Dr is a very thorough clinician who I trust completely with my issues. But if I wasn't happy, I'd go elsewhere.


I truly hope that you get the answers you are looking for soon.
Sue

[Caramello]

Dear Highly Sceptical,

I have experienced multiple failed IUI and one IVf procedure.

I like the others here can feel the anger in your post. We have all been there for various reasons. However I think to only ask people who have been unhappy with the service of their providers to respond is fairly limited.

(And, for anyone planning to respond, please keep in mind our guidelines: if your response involves naming a particular FS or clinic the post will be removed immediately).

I disagree with you statement that if you were treated well:

good luck, it doesn?t necessarily mean that your doctor was any good; it could just means you were happy with them.

And it could also mean that our FS is one of the best in the business; one of the leading professionals in the field.

We have chosen to go with our clinic because it IS a business. We could be going elsewhere in the same suburb, to a clinic that is substantially cheaper and runs through a public Hospital, however I am more comfortable paying the money for one of the best in the field. Simple as that.

I have never posted about what is on my doctors desk (and quite frankly find that statement patronising), however I think that having a good bedside manner is equally as important as having someone that is direct. Luckily we have both.

At any time, during any of your procedures, did your doctor state the anything like the following in plain, unequivocal English:

You are here because you can not have a child.

Yes. So did the counsellor we talked to.

? There IS a reason/s why this not happening. Not 'Luck of the draw' or 'Some women have difficulties' but an absolute, tangible, biological reason you can not have a baby.

Yes. My husband has azospermia (he produces no sperm) and I have PCOS.

Therefore, as your doctor, my promise to you is that I will find out what this reason/s is, tell you what the treatments are and then we will together, follow the steps that I believe are best suited to correcting this problem in your particular case.

Yes. We have to go to counselling. We have to use a donor. We have to use a known donor when the unknown donors are no longer available.

And when I find the reason and I will, and if it is not able to be corrected, I will tell you that too

See above re azospermia

For readers of this post, whether you gave birth after your first treatment or are still at it on your tenth, ask yourself: Has your doctor ever told you anything even vaguely resembling this?

Yes

Or have they instead been completely incurious regarding the crucial starting point of infertility, which is ?Why??

Why can?t you have a child?

No. In some ways we are lucky (and I NEVER thought I would be saying this). We have an exact reason. However it does not make infertility any easier.

If someone can't even identify the problem, then if you have a baby after repeated procedures, it is attributable to one thing only.
And that's luck.

And sometimes that is the only thing people can place their hopes on. Explain how, for example, one person survives a tragedy when everyone else has died. Sometimes there is only luck/ divine intervention.

Consider; your car has broken down. You take it to the mechanic and you say it?s not working and naturally the first thing you want is to know why. Is it the clutch? Is it the electrics?

?Mr Mechanic, it was running yesterday and now it is not. The first thing I want to know is why it does not work and after we know that, then we can fix the problem?.

Naturally you haven?t heard anything other than: ?Of course, I will find the fault first?. No-one hears otherwise, it just doesn?t happen.

Others have pointed out how insulting it is to compare the mechanics of a car to the human body. But lets go with your analogy. Have you never had a car where the mechanic stands perplexed and says 'I'm sorry. I can't find the fault that you are speaking about.' You go home, and the engine leaks again. Go to the mechanic, he can find nothing wrong. This scenario happens back and forth until eventually you are so frustrated that you give up and sell the car ( and YES I have had this happen - a recurring problem with an oil leak and a grinding wheel).

?No, this garage doesn?t do analysis; we do not recognise it as a principle. What we do is put a new alternator in your vehicle and if that does not work, we will then keep putting another 6 new alternators in.

And only then and if you kick and scream will we put in a new starter motor and see if that works. We will not analyse the cause of the problem, not tell you what it is, not fix it or tell you if it can not be fixed, we will just do the same thing over and over and it may one day run again. Maybe?.

No car repairer would ever say this, no plumber, absolutely no-one we deal with on a practical level where there is something that is not working, would ever say this.

I'm sorry but this contention is wrong. I have also had a toilet that I have had a plumber come out to fix 3 times because he didn't get it right the first time.

But in my experience, IVF doctors do.

So, here's my contention:

In Australia, IVF doctors and their highly lucrative practices are fuelled by 2 things; a huge level of taxpayer funding and desperation on the part of infertile couples.

I suggest that these doctors are on a massive personal wealth gravy-train that is effectively incapable of derailment from funding cutbacks and their behaviour basically immune from public or government scrutiny as they have the twin excuses of: 'This field is too scientific for the layman to comprehend'.

I do not believe that all IVF Specialists are on the gravy train. Neither do I believe that you cannot do your own research and challenge the doctor, if you so wish. I found out about HSG on this forum, something I wouldn't have known if I had not done my own research. To me, your FS, you, your wife and your counsellor are all in it together to try to find a solution if you can.

And: 'How dare anyone question our methods, every woman has the right to be a mother'.

This is an emotive statement, however I am sure that there is a basic principal that a FS will do all she/he can to make this statement come true.

Quite simply, I believe that many IVF specialists are running little more than a scam that Bernie Madoff would be proud of.

If you don?t know who he is, look up his name on the net, he?s the greatest Ponzi scam creator in history who took the best and brightest for US$60B. Currently he is into month 4 of a 150 year sentence only because one person said:

This man's business is endemically rotten and it was.

So that's my opinion based solely on what I've experienced and researched; that a very significant proportion of the IVF sector in this country that is endemically rotten, is motivated disproportionally by greed, is protected from scrutiny via the threat that the science is beyond the layman, is fuelled by taxpayer largesse and is underpinned by infertile couples desire to have children.

Anecdotal evidence and emotive language is not research.

If airlines were run in the same outrageous and deplorable manner that we as a couple have experienced, 2 in 3 planes would crash, as these are broadly the 'success rates' that IVF clinics achieve. And the IVF clinics don't even have to state why their figures are so woeful.

Have you read the success rates for those naturally falling pregnant?

Only: 'It didn't work for you'.

And again, I am very sorry that you have had this message. However, with our predicament, a one in three chance is better than none at all.

The rest of your statement is a repetition of things I have already answered, so I will not repeat myself.

We'll bleed them financially until they're tapped out, their relationship fails or they just give up and go away and then it's 'Next patient please'.

You are the consumer. You are the one that needs to decide when to call it quits. ALL of us go through times when we wonder about the expense both financially and on our relationships. And yes, there will be more people after us, because infertility doesn't stop with our generation.

I?d like to read others views that have experienced this callous and unprofessional treatment and also if it's permitted by the forum's administrators, I'd like to be Private Messaged to meet others in Melbourne who have suffered from this behaviour, to hear their perspectives

You will need to wait until you have 50 posts (at least) to get PM status. Your email address now posted will probably get inundated with spam, which is why we suggest people don't post their email addresses.

And if anyone thinks I'm 'crazy', consider this, if the population of United States is 15 times larger that Australia which it is, how is it that Australia has 10 times, I repeat, 10 times, the number of IVF procedures carried out each year?

And please, don?t tell me that it?s just the price difference.

1. Because they allow surrogacy
2. Because they place a substantial number of embryos back into the womb. The limit in Australia, as you are probably aware, is one under the age of 35, and 2 after this age - in some clinics only.
3. Because they have a better adoption rate
4. Because you can pay for a egg or sperm donor, or embryo donor
5. Because it is cheaper in Australia.
6. Because they can pay the money for overseas adoptions as its in American dollars.

[Persephone1]

:yeahthat:
Thanks Gargy, you said what I would say if I was as eloquent.

[satya]

I'm thinking you are talking from an "unexplained infertility" perspective. When they give you that diagnosis you will never know what is causing it. I understand how frustrating that is as I've been there. There are some undergoing IVF who do get the answers you are asking, but those with unexplained infertility will not. If everything seems to be fine it's damn near impossible to treat. I've read that people with this diagnosis don't normally do so well with IVF. Generally they do better with lifestyle changes, diet changes or alternative therapies.

I did not do IVF but I've had it recommended to me twice.

The first time it was after 3 years of TTC. All the testing showed no issues, clomid didn't work & the next suggestion by the FS was IVF. We weren't interested for a number of reasons. We conceived naturally about 3 months later but miscarried.

The second time was in a new relationship with 9 months of TTC & I was over 40 and had just had another loss. My GP did lots of tests then I saw a gyno. On the very first visit he said that my ONLY chance of a successful pregnancy was to have IVF. Yes.... my ONLY chance. He was wrong. My son is now a year old & he was conceived naturally & no drugs were ever used to sustain the pregnancy.

I think it is a money making business. I think that many people are sent in that direction far too quickly. I agree that the success rates for live births are not good. I don't believe they split them into people with diagnosed fertility issues (such as PCOS, endo, male factors etc) and those with unexplained infertility - well at least back in the days when I researched it they certainly didn't. I think they should.

[Highly sceptical]

My right of reply and I?ll make it reasonably brief.

There was a specific reason I wrote this below when I posted this thread:

?My question is unusual and I would ask only people respond to it who agree with my proposition because they have experienced similar treatment I?m about to describe. I think it is pointless to be responded to from people who have been happy with what they?ve received from their IVF providers?.

And that reason was my hope to avoid exactly what has happened which is a plethora of attacks on my views, I could of read those opinions on many other threads. I know these views are widely held, it is counter opinions I am seeking.

Briggy?s Girl asked: ?Are you seeking intelligent debate and experience??

My answer is no, I don?t want to debate anyone; I only want to read about experiences that share my basic experiences which concerns poor IVF treatment others may have received.

The purpose of my vehicle/mechanic analogy eluded most of the respondents, so let?s try a different one. Imagine this is a cooking forum and I had asked for a recipe to cook roast pork, a modest enough request.

But instead of reading about recipes for cooking pork, my posting I had enraged the Jewish forum members who then angrily chastised me for eating filthy pigs and then went on to browbeat me with how to make blintz?s instead.

Put simply, in a country that prides itself on the principal of freedom of speech, this is my thread and if you can?t answer the question posed ?? don?t say anything.

It?s just possible that people believe me when I say that I?m not doing this to anger anyone, I simply have a legitimate right to voice a countervailing view to the common orthodoxy and my view is that in my experience IVF doctors, their staff and their culture of communication are appalling.

I read of the years some of you have been searching for infertility solutions and they are nothing less than awful to read, it?s precisely because of these accounts and especially as some of your cases that the numbers are so high, that I?m hoping to elicit alternative views.

So please, respect my right to ask what I did and to Redlady who wrote:

?I hope you seek a counsellor that may be able to help you with your anger it?s not good to bottle it up inside?.

Oh I know what I want and it isn?t to be placated with a cup of tea and a hug.

I want a pit-bull like Senator John Faulkner to have a Senate enquiry on the entire IVF sector and when he exposed what I believe is there, I?m absolutely certain that many of these doctors would be quivering from the backlash that would come from multiple quarters but mainly from the couples who have endured their neglect.

And to those who felt free to get affronted at my post and then give me a serve, below are some extra perspectives and in contrast to what doctor?s charge, these are free ?.



1. Analogy. A resemblance of relations; a likeness between things.

2. ?God would not have made sheep had he not wanted them to be shorn?.

Lloyds of London CEO referring to non-disclosure to new insurance ?names? who brought in to cover the yet to be announced Exxon Valdez, asbestosis and silicone breast implant claims that when announced, ruined thousands.

3. Stockholm Syndrome.

A psychological response sometimes seen in abducted hostages, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger or risk in which they have been placed.