Conflicting Reasoning of Homebirth and Anti Vaccination

[Arcadia]

I have kids at my feet and typing on iPad, so I'll try and be coherent...

can you explain why you have faith in your body? It's not a trick question, I'm really curious. We all die, historically death rates in labour were higher for mother and baby. Diseases spread. Miscarriages occur at alarming rate. Why do we have faith in a body that eventually fails permanently with many small temporary failures in between? Having been a person who has been sick, had miscarriages, infertility, had a complicated birth, fairly extreme BF issues etc, these are all realistic reasons for me to NOT have faith in my body.

I believe our bodies have evolved over tens of thousands of years to birth in a way that is optimal. We don't not doubt other animals ability to birth, but we have little faith in a woman's ability. Yes women used to died in childbirth, but from what exactly? In the last century the vast majority was from infection (child bed fever) especially when doctors became involved and spread germs from patient to patient (often dead bodies too...ewwwwww) because there was no knowledge of hygiene. Hemorrhage was another one (which conversely has increased with modern interventions like induction). Both of these can now be treated through medicine such as antibiotics and in extreme cases iv drips and transfusions for hemorrhage. we also understand post birth complications better, such as retained placentas and products which can lead to infections. (there are other examples too, like gestational diabetes and preeclampsia which we once dangerous, but are now manageable)

So knowing that the hype about child birth being so 'dangerous' can be reduced to several risk factors, which can be managed, helped me understand that birth in itself was not a dangerous act, it was often the circumstances surrounding it.

Also, I believe youth, fitness and genetics were on my side when it comes to a complication free pregnancy and birth. It did take a lot of faith to trust in my ability, but I saw hospital as the place to go when things weren't going well. It was plan b, not plan a, and so I also had that as reassurance I think.

Breastfeeding has not been easy for me for many reasons, but I did not doubt my ability to do it. Perhaps I have a dogged optimism that stems from part arrogance and part faith. Surrounding myself with positive stories helped.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that some of us seem to come at this issue from a vastly different angle to others.

I also think we come at this from a very different angle on the issue of bodily autonomy v's baby needs. My personal opinion, that I'm not going to lay on anyone else, is that my baby's needs get 100% at any cost at all to my bodily autonomy. That is, if my baby needs it at a cost that is somehow physical for me, I will pay it. I do put the baby's needs at greater importance than my bodily rights. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is impossible to have both (fulfil all of the baby's needs AND retain your bodily autonomy) but if the choice needs to be made, I know which way I am going.

I'm obviously a hospital birthing vaxxer. The above is why I make the choices I do. I guess in the end, we all have our own reasons for doing what we do, each of us is genuinely acting in what we consider to be the best interest of us and our child, and that is what matters. So long as home birthers and delayed or anti-vaxxers are making informed decisions with a genuine heart for both mother and child, I support their right to birth and vaccinate as they choose. So I don't oppose you, I just think very differently about these issues.

I think I am privileged the choice is easy for me because of my positive experiences. I also think your experiences are extremely valid, and of course inform your position, so let's just say I'm the idealist here, and that we need idealists to help everyone get to an optimal state of normal.

My issue with placing babies needs above the above the woman's is a feminist one, often termed the 'personhood of the fetus' which assigns rights to the baby in utero as a person, often above the mother. Taken to the extreme, this means that a woman can be charged with manslaughter if she takes drugs during pregnancy and the baby is harmed (which is the scary state in some states in America). It also means that the baby's life becomes valued over the mother, so we have a right to tell what pregnant women what to do and how to act and ultimately reduce her to the role if uncubator (how long before drinking alcohol in pg will be targeted and women vilified...if it doesn't already happen).

Women have been moulded by a patriarchal culture over hundreds of years now to be subservient, lesser than, the other to the male subject, and the personhood of the fetus can be seen as another example of this, where women's bodies become objects to be manipulated, controlled and subjected to intervention, because of their lesser status as not women (autonomous beings) but pregnant women, where the fetus has supreme rights.

Sorry kids crying...will come back...

[sushee]

I don't think spencee was disrespectful, personally. I think she's trying to ask her question in a way that can't be asked without causing offence, so offence she has caused. But I'm trying to read the arguments to and from and it's being muddied by high emotion, and while I understand that, because people feel deeply about their choices, it's a shame.

Maruschke, I was one of those people who trusted my body in a birth situation. It was in hospital too. My labour stalled for many hours, and then baby started kicking like crazy in the middle of the night. I made my Dr come in to induce me because I knew something wasn't right. He performed an ARM and the amniotic fluid was almost black with clumps of meconium so he decided I needed an emergency c/s. I refused and fought him, because I felt like it was the best thing for my child to be pushed out of the birth canal, forcing any meconium out of his little lungs. I also trusted my body, having birthed 3 children previously, to do what it needed to.

My then DH was beside himself with worry, but told me he trusted me to know what was right.

So with a drip in my arm, an epidural and continuous monitoring (so by no means a non-medicalised birth) I pushed my son into the world 3 hours later. My dr admitted that had I not forced him to come in, my son would likely not be here. He also admitted that the push down the birth canal was good for my son in that situation too. He then said I was the most stubborn woman he's ever met, but I feel like I trusted my body to deliver my son in a way that was best for him, and it did exactly that. I think that's the kind of thing people talk about when they talk about trusting their bodies.

And it in no way infers that they're not putting their child's well-being first. I absolutely was thinking of my child's well-being. That's all I was thinking about. Even if it didn't seem like it to everyone in that room at the time.

[Maruschke]

Maruschke, I was one of those people who trusted my body in a birth situation...

And it in no way infers that they're not putting their child's well-being first. I absolutely was thinking of my child's well-being. That's all I was thinking about. Even if it didn't seem like it to everyone in that room at the time.

Absolutely, I hope no one got the impression that I think who trust their bodies aren't putting their child's well being first. I'm just questioning where that faith comes from in the first place. As many of these great stories I read about faith well placed, I also read terrible stories about that faith leading to disaster . I have a friend who I lost contact with in the PND haze, but she trusted her body to go to 43 weeks without medical guidance, and the placenta failed and her baby died. But she absolutely trusted her body to birth when the baby was ready. When I was pregnant with DD1, I was adamant my body was telling me I was having a boy. It was a girl!

So I guess I don't share your faith. Doesn't make either of us wrong, but I don't have faith in whatever people call "body faith".

Arcadia I will get back to you because I have to go post some fluffy mail .

[sushee]

I completely get where you're coming from, Maruschke. Faith is just that, you either believe or you don't. And for some, it's absolute conviction, right or wrong, but in the end they were the ones who live with the decisions they make, whether it's in a hospital, or at home, happy outcome or not. I think having conviction and faith, like anything, can be good or bad, but just as I have conviction in my ability to raise my children, that gets tested all the time, and we reassess and re-evaluate our beliefs, and change our convictions in line with our experiences.

[Tegam]

Getting back to the statistic. At what point does the ratio become too high? I think that's a personal choice and changes with perspective. 1:1000???

If its your child and it's your first it's 1:1

If its your child but your second it's 1:2

If its in your extended family say 1:10

Your mothers group 1:20 children you know that age

Someone child from school 1:200

A friend of a friend 1:400.

1 dead is still a death. It's your own perspective of 'risk' that changes.



Maruschke. I don't have utter faith. In fact I don't have any more faith than you. But it's a choice. I made mine to stay home you went to hospital. Do you have faith that NOTHING will go wrong in hospital?? I don't have faith that NOTHING will go wrong at home. But I assess the risk and have a plan for as many contingencies as possible. And at some point I guess **** happens.

My personal thoughts on vaxx is that there is a chance of risk of disease. There is a chance of risk of vaxx! There is 100% fact of the needle going into my child's arm. Get what I mean. A dr once said to me 'you realise that one day you may have to sit there and watch your child die of a disease that you 'may' have been able to prevent'. Do you think he EVER says to a parent before he vaxxs that 'there is a chance your child will die from this needle?'

I don't tent to take offence to much. I do what I feel is right for my family. But I take offence to the statements like 'if they are making an informed choice not to vaxx'! I'd bet my house there are more people making informed choices to not vaxx than there are that do vaxx. In fact I'd bet there are a lot of children vaxx'd cause the parents got paid for it. And that makes me SICK!

[Arcadia]

Yes I agree sushee. Faith is built on experiences, culture, and our own inner voice. Your friends story is tragic, and that doesn't make me doubt her ability to birth, but it does sound like she needed help to get it started. How would you know that? I would trust my midwife to help and guide me (and my midwife says 42 weeks is long enough for babies). So in that example needing some help doesn't undermine faith in a womans body, because there are so many unknown factors which make labour start.

Both my births were unusual. Dd was PROM and decreased fetal movt, but I went for monitoring and ignored the pressure to induce (well I compromised and booked in for an induction within 48 hours of membrane rupture which is recommended by everyone...the midwife at the hospital wanted me induced within 10 hours of rupture which is unnecessary). I went home with my midwife and under her advice got labour started using nipple stimulation and lots of loving.

Ds I contracted for a week and was emotionally exhausted but I knew a hospital would induce me. It turns out he was very entangled in the cord and the stop start labour was keeping him safe (he could only cope with short contractions). An induction would have lead to fetal distress and emergency csection because he was wound up so tightly. Then once my waters broke he kicked his way out so fast, because he needed to be born. It was the ultimate test of faith for me, but one that won me over. My birth story had all the details (my midwife missed the birth because the labour was so unusual).
I trusted everything was ok, because he was moving lots and I suppose why wouldn't it be? I just knew he we ok, and I thought I could do it. It's a tough thing to try and explain.

[sushee]

PZ, I've never encountered spenceee before this so can only go off what I saw from this thread. And from what I saw, she/he seemed to say clearly that they weren't meaning to cause offence, so I could only take that on face value. Their posts, despite the subject matter or even the manner in which some of the statements were delivered, seem respectful enough to me, even if the sentiment behind it may offend.

If anyone here has history with him/her and suspect that this is about attacking women and not about a real discussion about the issues raised, then you should hit that report button. I have no knowledge of his previous posts so have none of that context.

[Maruschke]

I don't tent to take offence to much. I do what I feel is right for my family. But I take offence to the statements like 'if they are making an informed choice not to vaxx'! I'd bet my house there are more people making informed choices to not vaxx than there are that do vaxx. In fact I'd bet there are a lot of children vaxx'd cause the parents got paid for it. And that makes me SICK!

Why would you take offence to the bolded section? What is so offensive about it? I think if you read my entire post in context you will see I wasn't accusing non vaxxers of making that choice out of ignorance at all. I'm applauding anyone who makes informed decisions. I'm sorry you are offended, but I have to stand by what I said, and I don't think it's an offensive statement at all.

[spenceee]

First up I will take a quick second to respond to the comments that my aguments are flippant and arrogant and ignorant. Im sorry that you saw my question that way but I asked it in order to seek out information about the mindset and to try and understand the situation better. From everything that this site claims to be about this is absolutely the place to ask a question like this and to expect discussion and education rather than dismissal. This type of response merely conveys that the people responding in such manner have made a decision about their beliefs and wish to challenge and counter opinion to validate their own belief system. Again if I offended with my initial question I apologise but please know that I was not seeking to offend but to learn. Personal attacks are not helping nor does my gender disqualify me from asking a question.

Thankfully for the large part the majority who have responded have been very open and I thank you for that.

@Sushee Thanks for the support on my intentions - I think you hit the nail on the head - But also.. im a dude

@Meow you raised an interesting point about maternal death rates being high in the US - from what I could find on the Unicef Website the rate was 12/100,000 (0.65% rate of home birth) an Australia's was 8/100,000 (0.3% rate of home birth) by contrast NZ has a rate of 25/100,000 (2.75% rate of home birth). these numbers would seem to show a correlation that home birth rates increase odds of maternal mortality. However I am not making this argument, I am only trying to show that statistics are made to manipulate. I would also expect that a trained and qualified midwife would be able to identifiy life threatening situations and would organise for a hospital transfer. Meaning of course that a potential tragic outcome of a home birth would officially be recorded under the "hospital" column. Looking further into the data I found obvious results over representing third world countries like Sierra Leone and Afghanistan where home birth is the norm but so is terrible hygenie and health. Ultimately I dont think that it is possbile to effectively compare the numbers from country to country as there are just too many environmental factors to consider. Even in Australia Indigenous people are more likely to have a home birth but they are over represented in our mortality figures due to poor living conditions and health etc.

Outside of this I seem to get the overall feel that for many of the people who chose to vax and HB is that there is at some level a mindset of distrust in our medical system in that it is inherently designed to interfere and charge forwards while accepting collateral damage.

How does this mindset exist? I am really honestly asking this question, not accusing, please dont jump on me for asking. I mean to say that the medical services industry seems to be designed to minimise risk and doctors train for 10+ years to be legally allowed to deliver medical advice would why they not be acting to achieve the best outcome possible? Surely an OB doesnt get up in the morning and rub their hands together at the thought of the trouble that they will cause that day..?

To be clear Im not trying to say that doctors are perfect, not at all, you find arrogance and fools in all walks of life in the same way that there must be bad midwifes as not all can be good. At what level do you trust the doctor, You probably wouldnt argue with a heart surgeon if he told you that you had a heart attack and needed a bypass to live? Would you have faith in your heart's ability to come good on its own?

Again Im trying to understand and not challenge your thinking or attack your decisions. please be kind with me

[Maruschke]

I trusted everything was ok, because he was moving lots and I suppose why wouldn't it be? I just knew he we ok, and I thought I could do it. It's a tough thing to try and explain.

I'm actually glad you have this, but I don't. I don't have a faith everything will be ok because "I suppose why wouldn't it be". You are right, my lack of faith is a product of my experiences and culture. I don't think we've evolved to be optimal birthers. Our babies have bigger heads than they did in the past, which makes birth more difficult. Our reproductive system has evolved, and we have something like a 70% failure rate of fertilised eggs becoming newborns. Asexual reproduction, our distant past, had much higher success. So evolving doesn't always work in our favour.

Anyway, time for me to shut up . I don't have an intention of destroying anyone else's body faith, I just wanted to explain why I don't share the same body faith you have, and how my birthing choices differ because of that. I guess the same philosophy extends to vaxxing and BF'ing etc etc. I support your right to obey that faith, and I'm not mocking you for having it, I just don't share it.

[sushee]

For me, having to conceive my child with IVF, I realised that the dr/patient relationship, for some things, SHOULD be a partnership, and it often isn't. My ob was also my Fertility Specialist (FS) and he was a wonderful FS but conservative, prone to trying the same thing over and over even if it wasn't working, not being aggressive in treatment, and, to be honest, not really understanding how *I* was feeling in the whole thing, how soul destroying failed cycle after failed cycle was for me.. And how could he? He wasn't me. So, ideally, my needs should have been balanced with his medical knowledge, but they often weren't. It wasn't until I read up, researched, informed myself that I felt the power to control some of those decisions, and that's when our relationship started to work.

He then became my ob and that was a different kettle of fish. He too was guided by his experiences and as far as he was concerned, I'd tried too long to fall pregnant to 'risk' my child with trusting my body to have a vaginal birth. He believed in his training, and his ability to deliver a good outcome (a live child) and didn't believe in ME. But *I* believed in me.

And it is this disconnect that happens when something that is NOT a medical condition is treated like a medical condition. Birth is not a disease, and over time, it's come to be treated like it is. And it means that there are whole generations of women who think that giving birth is something that needs to be done in a surgical theatre. I think this is why there is now building an inherent distrust of the medical profession in the area of childbirth, because the needs of the woman are often not taken into account.

[BellyBelly]

Maruschke, compared to my last two births, this one is completely different as you might imagine from me I was very much with the medical system, noooo way I would have considered a homebirth let alone no vax, although I did have a bit of fear of the system with my first, after having read Misconceptions by Naomi Wolf. It was not enough to make major changes - I actually got as far as calling an independent midwife to enquire about attending my birth, but given I wanted to birth in a private hospital, it was too expensive for that plus the IM fees. I was still young (22) and unsure, surely the medical system will have my best interests at heart and protect me! If I heard that my placenta could be dodgy after 4(x) weeks then I will have that induction you're offering me, thank you very much!

I have not changed so much from faith, but information, education and getting myself empowered - perhaps a better word would be confidence or assuredness. Knowing its right, safe, what I want and what I feel will work best while low risk. If you birth without this, then I would call that faith. But I think you have to give credit where its due - most women choosing non-mainstream options have done so due to extensive research, learning and not just blind faith. I highly doubt any of them have chosen homebirth without having read a book on birth, attended birth classes or gotten some form of knowledge not based on fear tactics. They make certain choices and decisions comfortably, because they invest in this so much. They have trust in their bodies, if they have 'failed' them before or not, they know extensively how it works and aren't just praying for a good outcome or taking a blind leap of faith.

I am happy to go with the flow with this bub and when it comes, it comes. I know what my body has done in the past and expect it to do the same, but if I happen to hit 42 weeks, I am open to regular monitoring and even a scan to check the placenta, blood flow etc. We're not opposed to modern medicine when it can help our babies, its not like its the devil, we just dont want to be forced to do/birth where we dont want and with someone else's rules - because they all vary. But we don't think it should be the first port of call, when everything is normal. We have more access to information and sharing of experiences these days than ever before in history. And I think its really showing with women taking more control of their experiences, what they want and what they know.

On Ob/GP said to me the other week something along the lines of, how can obstetrics be a science? I could put 6 obstetricians on a panel, present a case to them and they all choose a different line of management. One will send her to caesar. One will tell her to go home and tell her she needs more time. Etc etc. And in my work as a doula I have seen clients all the time in the public system praying that they'll get certain Obs on rotation who are happy for them to have a vaginal birth when the others will push for induction or c/s. Some will give women a go, some wont. But you're at the mercy of the system and thats just a massive recipe for PND, PTSD and a terrible experience. Women who have the worst outcomes are the ones who feel that they have lost any control and are not involved in the decision making process. Hospitals know this! I have seen this in hospital documentation.

I chose to stop vaxxing when the vaccinated kids at my children's kinders kept coming down with chicken pox. When I realised hep B was the biggest waste of time for a newborn, with too much risk for little return. When the vaccination schedule kept changing, and some were removed as they realised it wasn't needed and other brand new ones with bad side effects and little long term testing added. I dont like the idea of overloading a primitive, vulnerable immune system with loads of vaccines - surely that cant be good? Research shows us stories and evidence of risk, and we choose to avoid that.

The beauty and strength of faith, comes from research, education and empowerment about these things. I think trying to expect it from bad experiences isn't going to work - what if that fails you too when you're already untrusting?

[Maruschke]

I have not changed so much from faith, but information, education and getting myself empowered - perhaps a better word would be confidence or assuredness. Knowing its right, safe, what I want and what I feel will work best while low risk. If you birth without this, then I would call that faith. But I think you have to give credit where its due - most women choosing non-mainstream options have done so due to extensive research, learning and not just blind faith. I highly doubt any of them have chosen homebirth without having read a book on birth, attended birth classes or gotten some form of knowledge not based on fear tactics. They make certain choices and decisions comfortably, because they invest in this so much. They have trust in their bodies, if they have 'failed' them before or not, they know extensively how it works and aren't just praying for a good outcome or taking a blind leap of faith.

I understand your POV, and just to be clear, I'm not saying that HB'ers are uninformed, that HB'ers think modern medicine is the devil, or that they are relying on blind faith. The aspect of this thread that caught my attention was the faith component and I wanted to know where that came from . The education aspect and the modern medicine aspect has been discussed in many many threads already and I didn't need to go over that again.

I support your rights to HB and anti-vax, I just don't choose them for myself. If you want to do that, go for it, I won't stop you or mock you. I don't think you are making your decision based on a lack of research, just that we come to the table with different perspectives on childbirth. I'm following my own light just as you are following yours, nothing wrong with that at all .

I do not share your faith in birthing. I have my own reasons for that, my own reading and research backing me, and I feel empowered by going to hospital. I would not feel empowered at home. I feel confident that I've obeyed my inner voice. Why? Because I believe birth can and does go wrong and I have put myself in the best possible place for the best possible outcome, all things considered. I think you've done the same, reading and research, formed your own opinion, and placed yourself in the best possible place for the best possible outcome.

In summary, I support your right to choose even if we tend to choose differently. But I do read about this inherent faith "I KNOW my body can do this" and I want to know where that "knowing" comes from.

[BellyBelly]

Yep and fair enough - I commented because I think that the word 'faith' which kept coming up, can be a little flippant when describing something that motivates people who do something differently. To be bluntly honest, and we could all be, because we know this - the majority of the population are 'wait-and-see' or 'go-with-the-flow' with birth - they invest more time researching the house or car to buy, heck even the big screen TV, than birth - and they have no idea what a difference it could make to the outcome if they are in control and in charge of their decisions, than letting it all go at the plan of someone else. Its like trusting the bank manager to control your home loan for you! A small percent of us find it to be a very important thing to research and be at peace with. We know there is lots of fear and unknown driving decisions as well as sheep mentality. If they dont want to research, fair enough, its their choice, but they are also the very same people who spout fear, bad experiences and influence over others to do things their way... and the reason that so many of the population participate in media polls in huge numbers and say homebirth is dangerous and homebirthing mothers are irresponsible. It sucks that miseducation and misinformation drives so many decisions in life.

[spenceee]

"I KNOW my body can do this" and I want to know where that "knowing" comes from.

This is possibly the core of the question I have asked. When there are so many highly educated and trained doctors that overwhelmingly support medically attended births and the use of vaccines, how do any of us (even with 5 years of research still 5+ years behind any doctor) come to the decision to trust our own opinion over an educated medical one.

[BellyBelly]

Came back to add this, if people remember it, was long ago, but a sobering reminder of uninformed advice going horribly wrong: https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...ting-8593.html

Your question above, I answered my thought on that in my last post, not sure if it comes through. But I believe from what I have read (and not the books I used to read with my first), seen and heard, that I trust my body, where I didn't before. Accessing quality information triggered something inside of me to realise I was strong, capable and could do this - and witnessing the beauty of it attending births, how it CAN be. Which you can also see from choosing the right birth DVDs to watch. Thoughts become feelings, feelings become beliefs, rightly or wrongly so. What we think, creates how we feel about things. Thats the source right there.

[Heaven]

When there are so many highly educated and trained doctors that overwhelmingly support medically attended births and the use of vaccines, how do any of us (even with 5 years of research still 5+ years behind any doctor) come to the decision to trust our own opinion over an educated medical one.

That's just it though, faith doesn't depend on 'proof' or 'fact' so I don't think you'll find the answer you're looking for iykwim

faith
noun

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

[Rouge]

I think Kelly has answered that perfectly.

Put it this way. There is more than one way to service a car yet we all have our individual preferences. Some people like to walk in and have everything replaced as new even if it doesn't need doing. Some people like the friendly service of the guy that used to service their dads cars. And some do it themselves at home. Sure there is a basic science but everyone, including the mechanics put their own personal spin on it. And no matter what everyone thinks their service is best for them or they would choose something else. I understand what I do and why I do it. Just as everyone else does.