Conflicting Reasoning of Homebirth and Anti Vaccination

[Maruschke]

This has been an interesting thread and I think for me clarified WHY BB has the focus that it does. I'm glad we've had this discussion. Not sure any minds were changed, but mutual respect for one another and their choices is always a great thing. I know I don't "fit" with the BB focus, I don't adopt it for myself, but I respect people's decisions to go with it, so long as they respect me and understand that not everyone who chooses differently is out to get you or wants to see your free choice removed.

Kelly - I am rather wait and see when it comes to birth, but I'm not uneducated. I have deliberately not written a birthing plan. I feel like I have more liberty to birth to the best of my ability if I don't script things. I have sorted out my preferences and attitudes about birth, but for the birth itself I am going to wait and see. I'm also not a sheep . I'm the kind of annoying person that demands their doctor show me some peer reviewed evidence to back his recommendation if I am not sure where it came from. I sometimes bring peer reviewed research to them and ask them to change my treatment plan based on it. It pi$$ed off my first FS. It made my second FS laugh. But that's me, ever the scientist, never the sheep.

As for the OP, I think the posts to date have demonstrated a consistent logic between choosing HB and choosing not to vax. So I'm confused about your argument's premise. I am not one of them, so I have no dog in this fight, but I don't see the logical contradictions you are seeing.

[sushee]

This is possibly the core of the question I have asked. When there are so many highly educated and trained doctors that overwhelmingly support medically attended births and the use of vaccines, how do any of us (even with 5 years of research still 5+ years behind any doctor) come to the decision to trust our own opinion over an educated medical one.

Because doctors and medicine are not infallible, Because education isn't just what you learn in university. Because decisions shouldn't just be made on statistics and end outcomes, with a disregard for the process, or for choice and feelings and needs.

[BellyBelly]

Sure BB might have a focus but its not to exclude. Yes things get heated with some discussions and thats life, happens anywhere with any topic. But the beauty of it is we're here if people do want to know more, have a different experience. The mainstream sites don't delve so far. You can talk about anything you like here, have any experience you want. But for those who want more, to experience something else, we've a wealth of experience in those who have been there, and love to share that. Loads of BB members have gone on to have doulas, become doulas, go back to study as midwives and have homebirths. Thats beautiful for me. Those women have realised their calling and seen how far the rabbit hole can go... or that the rabbit hole is deeper than we thought. Its not for everyone, but I love that for many on BB, they have learnt that birth is not just about going into a white room, on a white bed, being a good girl and popping out a baby. Its never that simple. Feelings effect birth, how we're treated effects birth. Just as if you'd throw a hospital birther into a homebirth or a homebirther into hospital, birth isnt going to go well. I respect that.

[Tegam]

Why would you take offence to the bolded section? What is so offensive about it? I think if you read my entire post in context you will see I wasn't accusing non vaxxers of making that choice out of ignorance at all. I'm applauding anyone who makes informed decisions. I'm sorry you are offended, but I have to stand by what I said, and I don't think it's an offensive statement at all.

Wasn't really aiming that at you but the general idea that to not vax or Hb means a rather quick, ill informed, dumb choice.

I was just trying to point out like Kelly that so many people that vax and hospital birth do so as sheep not through any really thought process.

[Maruschke]

Wasn't really aiming that at you but the general idea that to not vax or Hb means a rather quick, ill informed, dumb choice.

I was just trying to point out like Kelly that so many people that vax and hospital birth do so as sheep not through any really thought process.

I've bent over backwards trying to communicate that I don't think HB'ers are uninformed, and I respect their choice. Likeiwse, not all hospital birthing vaxxers are uninformed and I also respect their choice .

[HotI]

This is possibly the core of the question I have asked. When there are so many highly educated and trained doctors that overwhelmingly support medically attended births and the use of vaccines, how do any of us (even with 5 years of research still 5+ years behind any doctor) come to the decision to trust our own opinion over an educated medical one.

To paraphrase from one of the experts in the recent doco 'the face of birth' - because the maternity industry doesn't use evidenced based medicine. if they used evidence based medicine then there would be more consistency among the recommendations given and procedures offered. But there isn't because although they may claim to use evidence based medicine, they don't.

Secondly, they may be great at reading books, but they don't know me.

Thirdly, i tried to work with the system and found that it didn't for me and the hospital wasn't a safe place for me or my babies. My lived experience trumps another person's learned knowledge when making decisions about me and my babies.

[Miss.September]

Sure BB might have a focus but its not to exclude. Yes things get heated with some discussions and thats life, happens anywhere with any topic. But the beauty of it is we're here if people do want to know more, have a different experience. The mainstream sites don't delve so far. You can talk about anything you like here, have any experience you want. But for those who want more, to experience something else, we've a wealth of experience in those who have been there, and love to share that. Loads of BB members have gone on to have doulas, become doulas, go back to study as midwives and have homebirths. Thats beautiful for me. Those women have realised their calling and seen how far the rabbit hole can go... or that the rabbit hole is deeper than we thought. Its not for everyone, but I love that for many on BB, they have learnt that birth is not just about going into a white room, on a white bed, being a good girl and popping out a baby. Its never that simple. Feelings effect birth, how we're treated effects birth. Just as if you'd throw a hospital birther into a homebirth or a homebirther into hospital, birth isnt going to go well. I respect that.

Very true. I have learned a lot about anti-vax, delayed vax and homebirth here. I feel I have so much more knowledge than I did four years ago when I joined. But I see very few posts talking about how much the person loved their ob, or their hospital birth. I feel it's almost becoming taboo to even mention it. While I understand that homebirth and anti-vax are the minority and need loud voices to make people realise it's a valid choice, not everyone has a dreaded or traumatic hospital birth and that seems to be the continual argument when promoting homebirth. I get that some people do have a traumatic birth, and yes I understand that in many cases it can/should have been avoided. But not all hospital births will end badly.

I don't think there should be any debate about it. It's a personal choice. Why do I have the right to tell anyone that they should give birth in a hospital because I had a good experience? Why do I have the right to tell someone to vaccinate their child just because I did? I did both for my reasons. I don't question others for making the decisions to do the opposite. The problem isn't with you or me or Freddy down the road. It's the higher powers that be that try to ban the "alternative" options all the time that make the debate start and roll.

[BellyBelly]

The nature and wording of the question though, it was always going to get complicated - most of us are struggling to even work out what is being asked and what the heart of the question is... so there are going to be misinterpretations.

But I see very few posts talking about how much the person loved their ob, or their hospital birth. I feel it's almost becoming taboo to even mention it.

Welcome to our world When you believe you're the minority it can feel very isolating and out of place. But its all what we are telling ourselves and what we believe. Because you will struggle to find one post where a member has bashed someone for posting about how much they love their Ob or hospital. I dont even venture into the c/s forums because I have no experience having one, and feel I am not the best person to give advice on such matters. I stay where I can provide positive and experience-based information. Yes, women who do choose homebirth and other options usually do appear confident, strong willed and passionate, but thats what it took to get them where they are, having the experience they did. It is a good thing! If it gets too much or too heated or too rude, we'll deal with it. Yes, we infract homebirthers too! But homebirthers are usually full of confidence, strength and want to contribute just like you do. Don't take it personally, its life #101 and forum life #101!

I think those who are choosing options that they believe are not what BB "approves" of (which is silly, we approve choice, not methods) are feeling a touch of insecurity there - and what if someone does reply and says Obs are crap? I can assure you it will get removed. You're all equally protected. Its time to stop looking at us as the bad scary guys, but the good guys, and ones who have a focus a different way than others. There is information women do not have easy access to, or are being provided. We just want to offer it and show that there is another way if you are open to it and not happy with others. This is not a scary or nasty place. Its abundant with many things that can enrich your life if you choose to see them - that doesn't mean do them. Just like you'd embrace another culture or religon, we're all people, we all do things differently and get different things out of them. But we all have a beating heart, love to connect with others, communicate and, just love!

[grub17]

Interesting question.
Personally, i think everything we do comes with a risk and HB and non-vaxxers are just doing what they think will be best for their family. And to me the reasoning doesn't seem alien. I think you may be looking at it from an odd angle. they probably aren't looking at the risks but the benefits and would be better termed 'non-interventionists'

As for "evil medical intervention'' mindset - i don't think people think that literally, but hospital births have become the norm. People who inhabit hospitals are taught to save lives/intervene. You go to a hospital for a baby, you can expect that the obst/doc will want to 'do their bit' with all their education. they aren't in your body, so they monitor and test and test and monitor - and then use that fantastic education to make decisions about your health and advise you what you should be doing etc based on the results and indicators and books!. Certainly for high-risk births, nothing wrong with that. Or if you want that to happen, it can be a security net.

But others just want to be left to do what they need to. There's a crass comparison when pushing a baby out... it is like doing the biggest poo in the world. That made me think, you don't go to the doctor for a c-sect after taking on the Lumberjack steak at your local pub. You just 'know' you need to go and you do it. Granted that is an awful comparison and i'm not calling babies little turds (although my toddler is verging on one somedays) and birth is more complicated involving 2 lives, but it's still a natural thing that your body tells you needs to happen. (and i know not ALL of us can be so lucky that it's this straightforward).

As for faith/trust in your body. I got mine after my first bub. I'm an LTTC as well Marschuke and had no faith in my body with my first. I was astounded to have birthed him naturally and breastfed as well! Then I realised that I paid an obst a lot of money to stand there and watch me push my bubba out. I did all the work, I delivered my baby, not the doctor. So my next birth was at my local birth centre and I had faith... pushed out a 10lb 3 baby with nary a scratch and was home for lunch and dr phil. If my first birth had gone awry and I needed some of that wonderful medical education this country is able to provide, then i probably wouldn't have had the faith i needed to birth dd.

Spence just wondering why you are asking the question?

Personally, it's about choice and I think all types of birth have their place. I think mothers are their worst enemies in terms of not educating themselves on their choices and letting a doctor or someone take control of their births etc I think it's a mother's place to be the primary advocate for not only their baby's health but their own and they need all the information to do that. they need a good overall view of the landscape. I think homebirth and birth centres should become the predominant way to bring a baby into the world with hospital beds saved for those mummas and bubbas who need medical intervention because of major health complications/risks or an inability to get the baby out. But then again, I also wish the world was as black and white as that!

not sure if that helps or informs your answer.

[spenceee]

So many people that vax and hospital birth do so as sheep not through any really thought process.

but do they? this is the same type of generalisation that many of the BB members fight against when it comes to decisions regarding HB and non Vax standpoints. It is just as easy to say that the other side of this viewpoint just read a coupe of internet blogs that supported it and decided that they liked the sound of it made a decision and and stopped researching. Further to this there are many like Maruschke and My own wife who chose Hospital birth based on the availble information, extensive reading and lengthy conversations with our OB/GP.

In my own experience, our first child was concieved throught IVF and was a great joy for My wife and I to get there after so much heartache. I was there for the FS appointments and I was there for every OB appointment and I even got to assist in the final stage of birth actually getting to pull my son out into this world and give him to his mum for his first hugs (most awesome intense moment of my entire life to date).

We peppered our OB with question after question on everything from pregnancy to all possible outcomes on birth, our experience was through Northwest Private in Brisbane with Martin D'arcy Evans as our OB and we found him to be a incredibly pragmatic doctor who offered couterpoints to his own experience and constantly reminded us that just because it usually went one way or the other didnt mean that any of it would specifically happen to us. He was definitely a "go with the flow" kind of guy. He himself even noted that in a best case scenario he would merely pop in to say hi and give my wife a quick checkup once the baby had been delivered. When asked about a possible preference for CS he laughed and pointed out that the OB's in practice at that hospital received the same fee regardless of method of delivery (I have no idea if this holds true anywhere else), that CS is a serious abdominal surgery that is best avoided unless absolutely necessary and that in the end a CS actually ties up more of his time to do rather than letting nature take it's course.

In the end the Midwifes at NW Private did basically all the monitoring and the first we saw of our OB that night was after the placenta had been delivered. The midwifes left us alone for most of the labour checking in from time to time and helping move my wife into positions that could (and did) help relieve pressure and make her comfortable. In the end my wife was able to deliver how she felt comfortable and was only "told what to do" when a midwife had to yell over her to help her to put her vocal energy into the push (hard to frame this as not being pushy but it really did help) and when our OB needed to throw a few stiches once all the excitement had died down. (this boiled down to saying, I need to give you some stiches, can you please be still for a minute while I do it) everyone was just great. I give this example to say that it is possible to have a positive experience at hospital too (my wife's opinion, and mine but hers is the relevant one here) As a side note my wife's recollection of much of her labour (no drugs bar about 5 mins of gas) was hazy at best and she could have very well been in the middle of a freeway without noticing a single car! For her the 3 hours between the contractions getting "Real" in her words (meaning actually hurt quite a bit!) to having our son went a lot faster than she thought. She was shocked when I told her the time once we were resting. Her story is here https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...ng-130058.html

I suppose that sometimes I have had the impression that the HB movement implies that a woman will have a greatly diminished experience if she choses to birth at hospital and that it almost guarantees a deprivation of basic human rights which was not my wifes experience. Looking back on our experience despite being positive it can seem almost irellevant compared to the sustained experience that is parenting, definitely a high point but the constant stream of every day experiences with our son trumps it time and time again.

[Miss.September]

Welcome to our world When you believe you're the minority it can feel very isolating and out of place. But its all what we are telling ourselves and what we believe. Because you will struggle to find one post where a member has bashed someone for posting about how much they love their Ob or hospital. I dont even venture into the c/s forums because I have no experience having one, and feel I am not the best person to give advice on such matters. I stay where I can provide positive and experience-based information. Yes, women who do choose homebirth and other options usually do appear confident, strong willed and passionate, but thats what it took to get them where they are, having the experience they did. It is a good thing! If it gets too much or too heated or too rude, we'll deal with it. Yes, we infract homebirthers too! But homebirthers are usually full of confidence, strength and want to contribute just like you do. Don't take it personally, its life #101 and forum life #101!

I think those who are choosing options that they believe are not what BB "approves" of (which is silly, we approve choice, not methods) are feeling a touch of insecurity there - and what if someone does reply and says Obs are crap? I can assure you it will get removed. You're all equally protected. Its time to stop looking at us as the bad scary guys, but the good guys, and ones who have a focus a different way than others. There is information women do not have easy access to, or are being provided. We just want to offer it and show that there is another way if you are open to it and not happy with others. This is not a scary or nasty place. Its abundant with many things that can enrich your life if you choose to see them - that doesn't mean do them. Just like you'd embrace another culture or religon, we're all people, we all do things differently and get different things out of them. But we all have a beating heart, love to connect with others, communicate and, just love!

I know that homebirthers would get an infraction too, that's not what I was trying to say. I don't believe there is favourtism going on for one area or another, sorry if I made my post seem like that. I wish there was no need to write that someone is a homebirther, if someone is a hospital birther, or if someone vaccinates or not. Because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what choice someone has made for themselves. I don't think that my hospital choice isn't "approved of" by BB either, because it is a pro-choice site. And I can't look at a site or the members/moderators using it, where I have learned so much and made many friends, as being scary

I can't think of anything more empowering than giving birth at home. But that's not to say that a hospital birth can be any less empowering. The joy I felt after giving birth was a mixture of "My goodness, she's here" and "OMG I DID IT!!!!!!!!" To me, it's was almost irrelevant whether I gave birth at home, in a hospital, in a car or in a field. It was about my baby getting here in the best possible scenario. This time around, I'm faced with different dilemmas. Will it be a c/s? Will I be able to have a vaginal birth? I want to do it myself, no intervention. But realistically, my circumstances may not allow for that this time around. I had a moment of terror at the thought of a c/s last week, but pulled back out of it because it doesn't matter. If that's the only way I can birth my baby, then so be it. And I know that this site is where I need to be to learn what's going to happen next

[sushee]

I think it's a fair large leap to assume that homebirthers all believe that you cannot have a positive experience in a hospital. I think they believe that THEY would have a more positive experience birthing at home, and that's not the same thing.

And I agree too that the birth is only one part of the parenting journey. I have 4 children, aged 5 - 21 so I know this to be true. But birth can also be a massive, life changing experience for a woman, and should not be taken lightly, or discounted in any way. I don't remember many things from the last 21 years but I still remember the births of all of my children in quite some detail. And I'm glad of it.

[BellyBelly]

spenceee, sounds like you had a decent Ob, I don't know if you're aware but QLD has some of the highest c/s rates in all of Australia, some of your hospitals sport up to a 70% c/s rate. I highly doubt 70% of the women over there have broken uteruses and vaginas Oh and I also don't think its fair to generalise the HB movement with sweeping statements. Some of the homebirth movement are all for freebirths, some are not. Some think independent midwives should have access to insurance, some don't. We're all different. But faced stats like mentioned above, given PND, PTSD and disappointing births are on the increase, there are people who are saying that homebirth has offered them alot more than hospital ever could. And so far with the journey with my independent midwife, its a long shot before it could ever offer the care that my midwife gives me. I knew it intellectually, but now actually having my own midwife come to me for two hours at a time, in my own house, having a cuppa and cake, interacting with my kids and family, getting them involved - its unbelievable. Its like having another family member as opposed to a boss. You can be happy with your experience in hospital, yes. But to me, hospital birth is like sex without the orgasm - does the job but you don't know what you're missing out on til you get it.... and who wants to go back once you've been there

[Arcadia]

I'm actually loving this thread!

I'm not opposed to medical care, in fact my dad is a gp and my sister is studying medicine. I vaccinate, and I get ultrasounds and blood tests. In fact I would say my prenatal care was pretty medical, with Doppler checks, blood pressure checks and regular discussions on my health, nutrition and well being.

I do not look down on people who birth in hospital, I have no idea what that is like. I just chose the place that was right for me.

I am a feminist and activist for birth CHOICES. I couldn't give a hoot where other people birth, as long as they chose it, and had a positive experience. if they feel like they missed out on something, well they can try something else next time.

Birth is a very very personal thing, so there will never be a right way. I just wish the media would stop fear mongering wound home births and leave us alone!

As for the issue of bodily faith, I want to give you a great big hug Maruschke!! As heaven pointed out, maybe faith isn't the right word, because there was nothing blind about my belief in my body. I read everything I could get my hands on about birth. I talked and read and thought and dreamt about all the possible contingencies. Home birth was one of many birth plans I had...it was just the optimal.

When I say 'why wouldn't it all work out' I mean that literally....let's go through the things that go wrong and make a decision about what to do about it...the was a lot of think and research in my decisions.

[Tegam]

I wouldn't say all hospital births are negative. I had two great hospital births before my Homebirth. Then sadly had the most horrid hospital birth! And I know for a fact none of it would have happened the way it did if I'd been at home

I was an idiot. I knew both sides. I knew how birth could be and I got a 'normal' hospital birth that without a fight would have been a cs.

It's left me that deeply scared I'm just not sure I can birth again.

So no I didn't have a home birth to heal me from a bad hospital birth. It was my ob at my 2nd birth that suggested I have a Hb next time.

[Maruschke]

I'm actually loving this thread!

I'm not opposed to medical care, in fact my dad is a gp and my sister is studying medicine. I vaccinate, and I get ultrasounds and blood tests. In fact I would say my prenatal care was pretty medical, with Doppler checks, blood pressure checks and regular discussions on my health, nutrition and well being.

I do not look down on people who birth in hospital, I have no idea what that is like. I just chose the place that was right for me.

I am a feminist and activist for birth CHOICES. I couldn't give a hoot where other people birth, as long as they chose it, and had a positive experience. if they feel like they missed out on something, well they can try something else next time.

Birth is a very very personal thing, so there will never be a right way. I just wish the media would stop fear mongering wound home births and leave us alone!

As for the issue of bodily faith, I want to give you a great big hug Maruschke!! As heaven pointed out, maybe faith isn't the right word, because there was nothing blind about my belief in my body. I read everything I could get my hands on about birth. I talked and read and thought and dreamt about all the possible contingencies. Home birth was one of many birth plans I had...it was just the optimal.

When I say 'why wouldn't it all work out' I mean that literally....let's go through the things that go wrong and make a decision about what to do about it...the was a lot of think and research in my decisions.

Thanks for the hugs.

When I speak about faith, I never mean "blind faith". Faith is always based on something. So it's not as if I'm sitting here thinking that HB'ers based their confidence on nothing more than wishful thinking. Perhaps I should have defined the term earlier, but I can't remember which of us used it first and to be honest I'm lazy .

[Maruschke]

I wish there was no need to write that someone is a homebirther, if someone is a hospital birther, or if someone vaccinates or not. Because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what choice someone has made for themselves. I don't think that my hospital choice isn't "approved of" by BB either, because it is a pro-choice site. And I can't look at a site or the members/moderators using it, where I have learned so much and made many friends, as being scary

I agree. Home birthers and hospital birthers are not on opposite sides of the coin here. Choice enablers and choice deniers are on opposite sides of the coin.

[e_p]

Hi All,
The anti-vaccination movement moves on motivations of it being somewhat uneccesary for some things (like mumps vacc for girls as they wont go sterile if they catch mumps like a boy could) to the fear of Autism caused by the MMR which I believe to have been sufficiently dis-proven (My opinion, I know that this debate still rages) through to the fact that there are cases in which the child can have severe allergic reactions.

Boiled down it seems that there is a general acceptance that the majority of people who are vaccinated have no lasting side effects but regardless of how statistically small the potential risk of causing harm is considered unnaceptable. This is the point I will come back to.

Compared with the Home birth movement which essentially encourages mothers to allow the body to tell you what is going on and relies on the simple fact that we have only very recently considered pregnancy to be a medical condion. At it's extreme edge shuns almost all medical intervention and monitoring bar a birthing partner/s.

It is known that we are our most fragile at the time of our birth and it is a source of great fear for all expecting parents (I myself have never felt so fragile in the moments between placing my newborn son on his mothers chest and hearing his first cries, a space of maybe 15 seconds that felt like an eternity).

I wont go into the whole birth rape thing but I do find that phrase a bit sensationalist in the same way that I find telling a mother if she does not take a specific course of action that she will kill her unborn baby (outside of true emergency situations of course) a method of fear-mongering.

100% of babies that tragically do not survive birth at hospital would share the same fate were they birthed at home but some of the babies who tracially do not survive at home could possibly have been saved with rapid emergency medical intervention (definitely not all but some). Same goes for the low chances of serious complications for the mother (post natal haemorraging etc..)

So based on that would not the desire to homebirth and the low chance of maternal/perinatal mortality be viewed in the same light as the desire to vaccinate with the low chance of lasting side effects/allergic reactions?

I don't really know how you have determined the group values of the 'homebirth movement' as you call it and am assuming (yes, assuming) that you've had limited contact with people who choose homebirth (I'm guessing this because if you had lots of contact with homebirthers, you probably wouldn't have started this thread). If I'm right, then I think its also safe to assume that your idea of what the 'homebirth movement' pushes for is likely informed by public perception, opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers etc...If I'm way off the mark, I apologise.

I gave birth at home. I plan to give birth at home for future babies. I've sent submissions to MPs, I've attended rallies, I'm going to the Homebirth Conference later this year. I still don't know what you mean by 'homebirth movement'. I meet lots of other people who choose to homebirth. The only things they all tend to have in common is that they value normal physiological birth, and that they believe women should have a right to bodily autonomy and a say in how they give birth. Another common thread amongst the homebirthing women I've met is that they usually believe that safety in birth means more than just being alive at the end of it. I'm not suggesting that women who give birth in hospital don't or can't share those values too.

I don't think it's at all useful to group women who choose to homebirth as the 'homebirth movement', or people who choose not to vaccinate, or who question routine vaccination or who choose to delay vaccinations as the 'anti vaccination movement'. I would probably be someone you might consider to be part of the 'homebirth movement' but all I want is for my rights to be respected, not to get everyone else having homebirths.

I chose to homebirth because I value normal physiological birth and believe it is a normal bodily function that works very well on its own unless there is a reason to intervene. In the state I live in, around 5% of women have a normal physiological birth within the hospital system. I didn't like those odds. Before I TTC I thought I would need a private obstetrician and a private hospital to have a normal physiological birth. After 2 years of research, I realised that option was the choice least likely to get me the outcome I wanted. At this stage, my child has not been vaccinated but we are in the process of researching what vaccinations we believe to be necessary and when we should have them administered. We may do all of them, we may do some, we may do none - we haven't decided. There are members of my family who have had severe allergic reactions to vaccines, but that aside I still think it is important for people to weigh up the risks and benefits of ANYTHING we put into our bodies. I consider it part of my parental responsibility to do this. I agree that largely, vaccines appear to be safe and useful. Birth is also very 'safe' in Australia regardless of where or how it is done.

I disagree that we are at our most fragile during birth - I was at my most powerful during birth. More powerful than I ever thought I could be. Having said that, the process and hormones that allow normal physiological birth make it very difficult to be "left brained" so that can make women very vulnerable if they don't have good support, or if they have care providers that don't respect their autonomy.

I disagree wholeheartedly with your statement that 100% of babies that die in hospital would have also died at home. 2 babies died in South Australia as a result of ventouse delivery (I think in 2009?)...no ventouse at home. When my baby was born, he took about 2 minutes to take his first breath...if he was born in hospital it would have been routine practice to cut his umbilical cord (which was providing him with oxygen) and take him away from me to be resucitated. Maybe he would have died? Maybe he would have ended up in SCN? Maybe then we would have had difficulty establishing breastfeeding because those crucial early hours were interrupted? Maybe I would have suffered PND because the flow of oxytocin that facilitates bonding was interrupted. Of course, its not a GIVEN that those things would have happened, but it makes them more likely. Our medical/hospital system exerts pressure by way of beds, staffing levels, time, funding etc which makes evidence based practice and an individual approach to every single woman just about impossible. That is to the detriment of women and babies. What DID happen, because he was born at home, is that under the very watchful eye of my midwife, I talked to him, blew on his face, tickled his feet and rubbed his chest...I was never worried, there was no panic, just a mother following her instincts and an experienced professional observing, assessing and ready to intervene if it became necessary. I am unbelievably grateful that I had a care provider that has great respect for the importance of those first moments of motherhood and an understanding that the safest place for a healthy newborn to be is usually on it's mothers chest.

but do they? this is the same type of generalisation that many of the BB members fight against when it comes to decisions regarding HB and non Vax standpoints. It is just as easy to say that the other side of this viewpoint just read a coupe of internet blogs that supported it and decided that they liked the sound of it made a decision and and stopped researching. Further to this there are many like Maruschke and My own wife who chose Hospital birth based on the availble information, extensive reading and lengthy conversations with our OB/GP.

In my own experience, our first child was concieved throught IVF and was a great joy for My wife and I to get there after so much heartache. I was there for the FS appointments and I was there for every OB appointment and I even got to assist in the final stage of birth actually getting to pull my son out into this world and give him to his mum for his first hugs (most awesome intense moment of my entire life to date).

I suppose that sometimes I have had the impression that the HB movement implies that a woman will have a greatly diminished experience if she choses to birth at hospital and that it almost guarantees a deprivation of basic human rights which was not my wifes experience. Looking back on our experience despite being positive it can seem almost irellevant compared to the sustained experience that is parenting, definitely a high point but the constant stream of every day experiences with our son trumps it time and time again.

It sounds like you had a wonderful, inspiring birth experience and a fantastic, supportive care provider - I'm very happy for you. I don't think that giving birth in hospital means that you're guaranteed a raft of intervention you don't want and a big dose of birth trauma. I also don't think homebirth is a guarantee of a great outcome, a joyous birth and a blissful babymoon. Neither hold any guarantees about having a live baby or mother. What I DO think, as a woman, a feminist and a mother, is that women should be supported to make decisions that best suit them. If they can be informed decisions, I'm even more thrilled, but not everyone has the time or inclination or interest to research for themselves. The crap*y thing is, and this is where I get angry, I get asked to justify my decisions all the time, asked to explain my rationale, expected to be able to quote xyz study to back myself up. My choice isn't publicly funded and is it a choice made by very few women. My choice is endlessly vilified, I'm called names, told that I'm selfish, putting my own needs above my baby's, reckless, primitive, backwards and that I hate everyone who doesn't make the same choice as me. My choice will be illegal in 15 months time. I suspect in time it will become illegal to refuse vaccination without a medical exemption. I'm not ok with that.