Do Japanese Women Eat Sushi, Do French Women Eat Soft Cheese/Pate

[Inanna]

I actually don't agree it's about being right and wrong.

It's about personal choice. Comments were made to the vein that it's all a bit over the top and "we never had these rules in our mothers day" etc etc. Comments such as "I ate it and look my baby is alive and developmentally fine".

People look and read and some people just believe opinions. So therefore facts have to be stated.

Listeriosis is a real albiet small risk. It is a "common" cause of stillbirth. It isn't a story with unknown faces...

Yes, I was offended Hoobley - as you were "growing increasingly tired" - your beliefs may be that your babies died and that's just the way it is. However, my babies died because I had an undiagnosed condition. I have made it my lifes work to help and support those that are enduring the same. I have seen cases of stillbirths due to listeriosis and "they were never meant to be" really doesn't cut it in a labour room when there is a silence that can cut the air.

Yes, I am sensitive about this issue (I wave my arms around guiltily) Yes you have pushed my buttons - but my over flowing in box last night told me how hurt others were also...

We all say stuff without thinking. We all say stuff without really understanding how it might be heard. Its all good - my wounds are never kept open - life is too short for that.

It is true that the written word without facial expressions etc can be misinterpreted. Absolutely true. As for it being the truth - well I am different. I live my life authentically and I always make the assumption (unless I am proven otherwise) that others do too.

Posts often get off topic - back to France and Japan - but it's about discussion and learning and peer support.

[Liz]

I actually think it's pretty funny that people assume japanese women live on sushi and french women live on soft cheeses. LOL.

I did a quick google and of course couldn't find anything. But I did find something on french women drinking alcohol during pregnancy, and it said that they were actually uninformed about the dangers of alcohol in pregnancy, and that it was a surprising find that many of the women admitted to not knowing of any of the dangers. There's been no campaigning or information distributed on this topic to french women.

So, the same may be true about Japanese and sushi. Who knows.

I didn't find avoiding these foods that hard.. in the big scheme of things its a pretty small sacrifice to make and an easy one. The fact that you can have listeriosis and not know it is what scared me. It really was no biggy to miss out on a few foods. You could say that women centuries ago didn't have all these 'rules' but their food would have been 100 times different too. We have so much processed food, and even our 'fresh' food has an unbelievable shelf life these days too. I think if research has found that some of our modern food can contain a harmful bacteria, then it's worth listening to.

[Inanna]

My way of looking at it is the same Liz. What I find most disturbing is the erroneous belief that pasteurized food cannot grow listeriosis. Women assume if they eat brie etc that is pasteurized that they will not come in contact with listeriosis.

That is absolutely untrue - and it does concern me...

[Nai]

One of the main issues seems to be the mis-information, conflicting information or lack of information available. I thought I was well informed on what to eat and not eat during pregnancy etc but still managed to find out only now that runny eggs are not ok. How did this slip through the keeper?

And I also thought that pastuerised was ok!

[Inanna]

Nai - uncooked eggs can be a source of salmonella... So therefore eggs should be thoroughly cooked - that is no runny yolks!

One of my favourite things when pregnant with DD13 was "egg flips" - you know a raw egg, milk and vanilla... Actually sounds repulsive now - but I couldn't get enough of them! I got sick from "food poisoning" - and this was attributed to the eggs... So, it can happen...

[mountain mummy]

Flowerchild and Hoobley - All differences aside, I think there are ALOT of very lucky women to have BOTH OF YOU in their corner!! Yes we all have our different beliefs and opinions, but at the end of the day, from all the different threads I have read on BB, you have both been a wealth of information, support, knowledge and encouragement to so many.

Just thought it needed to be said.

[Toomanytoomany]

It's not a matter of thinking I'm right, it's a matter of weighing up the scientific evidence that has been presented and deciding what to do about it. It's not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact that some foods and any alcohol consumption represent a risk - how we decide to act on that is a matter of opinion and personal preference.

[Bathsheba]

ETA: I hadn't read the whole thread when I posted this.... sorry.

I followed my gut with foods and I found it served me well. One occasion I looked at a whole table of food and just went I can't eat any of that. I was right, everyone else got food poisoning. I was 6 weeks pregnant at the time and very thankful I went with my initial reaction to seeing the food. I still ate what I wanted after that, but always followed my instinct, so sometimes I would have sushi and other times the look of it turned me off.

That's how I was as well with all 3 pregnancies. Sometimes there is false security in blindly following rules and not actually being educated. There is a difference. I think we would all agree that you could follow the food-types rules and still contract listeria or salmonella. It's just like Astrid said: you have to THINK about the hygiene and history of foods as a PRIME consideration as to whether it's safe.

I have worked in commercial kitchens and have training as to safe and hygienic food handling practises. This serves me far better than a food group list. Example: I would and have eaten a soft cheese that I have unwrapped from an air tight packet that was within "used by" dates. I would not eat the same cheese if it was unwrapped at an unknown point in time. My logic also works as Fiona put it... French women still eat brie when pregnant etc.

ETA: Ok... I am considering deleting this post because after reading the whole thread it might be a bit inappropriate to share my thoughts at this point of the discussion...

Um, Possibly one reason why I personally decided to take the risk in eating sushi and soft cheese during my pregnancies was because I don't eat red meat (mammals) and I think that perhaps I may have needed the extra protein...

[buliej]

I'm so happy to know these facts and that people share them on bellybelly - and add their insights and explanations. I would be devastated to find out I ate something that harmed my baby - and it would be worse if that something was known by few/some/many/all but me to carry a risk to a fetus. I under stand applying common sense about food handling as well - but I think this is as an added layer of protection - not "instead of" the foods that have been shown to potentially carry listeria or salmonella, etc. This information is put out there to serve and educate mothers-to-be - I'm thankful for it and for the progress of science generally - both in terms of understanding better what may impede the delivery of a happy and healthy baby..and in my case, hopefully even giving me the ability to have a baby.

Of course, if I read on the internet for the first time about a food being bad and it didn't jive with anything else I knew, I'd look into it/ask my dr or midwife to make sure it wasn't something like an old wives' tale.

Also, Flowerchild - I am glad you mentioned that about pasteurizing - I can easily see thinking that something was pasteurized and therefore not a risk - even though now that I think about it more carefully, what you are saying seems almost obvious - but it wasn't to me!

[spooky]

Sorry if someone has already stated this ( I don't have time to read the whole thread) but unpasturised cheese IS available in Australia now - albeit limited and very expensive! Just keep this is mind if you choose to eat soft or blue cheese (and some hard now) that you can enquire as to wether or not unpasturised milk was used.

Grana and reggie are also made (in Italy so the real stuff) with unpasturised milk, but are then hard cooked (hot) so that is how this one slipped through the system.

It is illegal to make cheese with unpasturised milk in Australia so if this is a concern for you, support the local industry.

[Inanna]

Tootoomany -That's it in a nutshell really This isn't about right or wrong. It's about risks and deciding what you will do about it.

Again - my concern is that women need to know the FACTS in order to make informed choices -

[Janie]

Um, I find it interesting that people assume that Japanese women eat so much sushi they can't go without it (etc etc)! And the French with their cheese..........

I have no idea what they recommend in Japan these days to pregnant mothers, but I have a step mother who is Japanese, and also a chef. She would go weeks without eating sushi, it is not that big a part of daily life. (Goodness knows why, her sushi is devine LOL!). There are soooooo many other parts to Japanese cuisine, as I'm sure there are many other things for French women (who are pg) to eat other than soft cheese.

Fiona, if you're truly interested I can ask her next time we speak to ask her niece in Japan who recently had a baby.

[Bathsheba]

I know that French and Japanese cuisine is a lot more varied than these foods Fiona gave as an example... but I think her sentiments are (correct me if I'm wrong)... are that some cultures have food types and preparation methods that would make you assume their antenatal mortality should be skyhigh... but it doesn't appear to be... so, just in the spirit of staying on topic (and avoiding the debate that we've been having in here)... I wonder if some cultures (besides those in the Developing countries with their poor hygiene)... do the French and Japanese have higher mortality rates due to Listeria and other forms of food poisoning? Say... compared to Australia.

[Toomanytoomany]

Grana and reggie are also made (in Italy so the real stuff) with unpasturised milk, but are then hard cooked (hot) so that is how this one slipped through the system.

It is illegal to make cheese with unpasturised milk in Australia so if this is a concern for you, support the local industry.

I didn't realise that re the bolded cheeses. I'd love to have a go at making cheese one day. Do you know, the rind off a good smelly bit of grana padano makes the absolutely BEST flavouring for a hearty minestrone. Just chuck it in half an hour before serving. Yum.

[Inanna]

I don't agree it would be sky high Bath...

Listeriosis is a risk but a small one. However, since the 80's when it was discovered that listeriosis causes stillbirth & miscarriage that is when the advice not to eat at risk foods was brought in. Its a precaution to be mindful of. Kinda like caffeine and alcohol. It wasn't known in the 60's/70's how harmful it can be to fetal growth/development/wellbeing... Does that mean we snub the knowledge just because our bodies crave a beer? Again, the answer to that question would be up to the individual woman. Let her have the knowledge - the facts and then make her choice for her body and her baby. But the key here is knowledge.

Stillbirth & miscarriage rates are high - if they can be reduced by not eating at risk foods that can only be a good thing (at least from my vantage point anyway).

So, it would be interesting to know what the rates of listeriosis related loss is in those countries. However, let's remember there is a little more to the French diet than soft cheese. Having also spent time in Japan - might I say Sushi wasn't really high on the diet... So that may in part answer the OP's question...

[Toomanytoomany]

do the French and Japanese have higher mortality rates due to Listeria and other forms of food poisoning? Say... compared to Australia.

I did find a study that suggested that better education and removal of listeria sources in foodstuffs have led to a significant decrease of listeria in France. So I guess we've made an assumption that the French are not routinely educated about or act on listeria risks that is not true! Here's the abstract if anyone is interested.

All I've been able to glean from Australian data is that the infection rates are less than a hundred per year, which is very, very low. I guess like the Reye's syndrome thing, it's a very rare occurrence that is nevertheless quite easy to prevent by following some simple guidelines about food.

[Bathsheba]

Thanks for finding that abstract TM.

I wasn't suggesting the rates were or weren't skyhigh... just pondering. Food preparation methods (like drinking unpasturised milk... not just soft cheese made from unpasterised milk etc is what I meant). there would be people here in Australia who own cows... and use the milk from them fresh... i guess this could be a risk too?

I'm not totally dismissive of the food recommendations BTW I definitely acknowledge the value of them... it's just that I've witnessed too many pregnant women taking greater risks in eating foods that are apparently OK... but I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole!!!! Like "Oh I know I can eat Cheddar cheese... I might just cut myself a piece despite the fact that I don't know how long it's been on this platter for... or whether the person that prepared the platter even bothered to check the used by date". Or women that eat crap food like KFC daily because "at least it's safe".

[Inanna]

It is a risk Bath - drinking your own cows milk. But yep there are those that do it. I actually am all for "Raw Milk" as I believe the benefits are huge. However the risk to an unborn child is enough for me to steer clear whilst pregnant. When not pregnant my family drink raw milk - from organic cows...