The search for validation...

[Arcadia]

I have been thinking on this for a while, and some recent threads have brought it back to the forefront of my mind...

I find it interesting that our society seems to condition us to look elsewhere for validation of our decisions, rather than to our own resources. This can take the form of praise or reassurance, but is generally, unconditional support for choices we have made.

I am a definite culprit of this, and something I have been working on as DD gets older. When I feel unsure, I try and think...well...I'm the mother, so its actually up to me. It sounds pretty basic, right? But it is hard not to call mum, or jump on here, or go to mothers group and have a whinge so I hear the "but you're doing so well..etc". I think mothers are SO unsupported in society, and I am not advocating stopping praise and support, but rather the unconditional support, which ignores deeper or wider issues and possibly stops the person finding peace within themselves (iykwim?)

I know a few friends who are actually trying to avoid praising their children with unconditional phrases like "good boy" or "good girl", because that only sets them up to seek validation (in their view). Instead they recommend phrases with conditions, like, "I really like that picture you drew. Wow, look at the birds etc etc" which encourages more specific discussion/encouragement, rather than direct, abstract praise because this encourages "praise junkies"...(there are resources out there that discuss this in more detail).

Anyway....just putting it out there...

[Oorki Galoorki]

i definatly agree with what your saying, its why my posting style has changed recently as i wont offer support that goes against my ethos..
i get that every one needs support of some type but if you(read us) can not be comfortable with your decisions then why should any one else be... if its bad or good we have to know that we have made the decisions based on the information we have. we could look into it further if we want or we could leave it with what we already know.

as i have been doing my own emotional development i have realised i was/am dependant on praise.. but i am starting to get over the need for a welldone, good job....blahblah.

positive reinforcment does not have to consist of praise as you have said there are other was to help children feel confident.

[thepixie]

very interesting topic anna! I think we do have a tendency to concentrate too much on others' opinions rather than listening to our inner voice and trusting what we believe is right, especially as mothers. Also I think seeking outward validation can sometimes be a way of not 'owning' our own choices - eg. everyone told me it was the right thing to do/ I was doing a great job, we can kind of renounce our agency for it later ITMS.
I am not so keen on the idea of not telling children they are a good boy/ girl, I would be worried that could descend into pedantry and so much of what we do is micromanaged and microscoped (not really a word but YKWIM) I would hate to see people frowned on for telling their child s/he was a good boy/ girl. But I guess if the person wasn't seeking validation they wouldn't care!
Very interesting discussion

[Janie]

Wow, Anna, great topic! I agree with much of what you have said.......and it's also something I have worked on since becoming a mum. But I know I fail at times, I need to be more conscious of it.

Thanks for bringing it up, I look forward to reading others responses

[maz]

I think alot of it is fear factor....fear that the truth in what your feeling might surface and in turn making you feel isolated in a sense with your view's arent seen as the right way by others.

Doudou hit it on the head with emotional development. Feeling comfortable and believing in yourself and your abilities as a human being are the first step and sometimes it helps to see the glass as half full instead of half empty.

[Lulu]

This is another reason I am so thrilled that I have found an alternative school for my son. I love the fact they encourage the children to find validation within themselves and promote individual self-worth rather than looking to someone else for praise iykwim?

They will concentrate on his own achievements rather than scaling it up against others performance.

[Lolli]

Ineteresting. I know I have a lot of issues with praise and being validated by others. It's somehting I work on- being secure in myself and my own desicions, and having the praise of others being more an 'icing on the cake' kind of thing, rather than a marker with which i judge myself.

It's also something i'm becoming more concious of with ds. having grown up in a house where no praise or feedback (good or bad) was given ever, for anything, sometimes I feel like I lay it on thick with ds as a kind of compensation. I feel like I walk a fine line between trying to give him enough confidence, and the power to realise what area's he's strong in, and just praising him for anything...

[Bathsheba]

Great thread topic

The issue of creating and being a praise junkie was highlighted for me when i worked at an ELC (run by an independent girls' school). I soon picked up on how the staff were avoiding the use of 'good girl/boy' and it might have even been explained to me. Instead we encouraged and acknowledged effort by commenting on the praise-worthy action; eg "You have worked so hard on that construction, well done!" or "I really like how you have chosen to share that toy, that is very kind of you". Telling a child they are "good" or bad" is a pretty risky thing really.... like any other label.... and it's not really correct. No one is always good or bad. They do good or bad things, subtle difference, but can be really important to a child.

Of course at home i still slip out the occasional "good boy" etc but I try to avoid it.... it's possibly an example of my own upbringing which was big on labels.

I totally agree, and couldn't have said it better, the point Pixie made about people being free to disown their actions if they seek validation for something that later turns out to be the wrong thing.
I think it's a much better idea to tune into yout own inner voice... it's usually on the money. The opposite can also be true when everyone around you is saying that something is a dumb idea... so you don't do it... but if you had it would have been the right thing for you.

Really really interesting subject!

[skeetaboat]

This is another reason I am so thrilled that I have found an alternative school for my son. I love the fact they encourage the children to find validation within themselves and promote individual self-worth rather than looking to someone else for praise iykwim?

They will concentrate on his own achievements rather than scaling it up against others performance.

That sounds great. What kind of school is it?

[Lulu]

Actually it's hard to describe easily - like Montessori or Stenier.

It's an independent democratic school. From the school philosophy -

"We aim to inspire young children to discover and learn in a supportive, caring environment. We celebrate individual differences and while at the same time encouraging children to develop and awareness of their place in Australian society and the global community, and to grow to understand their role in supporting and caring for each other, all living creatures and the natural environment."

It has it's own little farm and the children take care of the animals themselves, the children have a large say in school matters and the teachers are free to pursue any subject they might find interesting or relevant and engage children at any age in a heap of different ways.

Love it.

[Liz]

Great thread topic

Instead we encouraged and acknowledged effort by commenting on the praise-worthy action; eg "You have worked so hard on that construction, well done!" or "I really like how you have chosen to share that toy, that is very kind of you".

I try to remember to do this... but yeah... good boy/good girl often slip out all too easily! I'm pretty sure I haven't done naughty or bad tho... i usually say I don't like when you do that or say that.

Same thing with calling them clever. You're better off praising the effort otherwise they feel they have to live up to being clever and often then don't even try for fear of failing.

As for the validation... I think to a certain extent seeking validation is ok.. altho if it's validation just for the sake of justifying something we're not really 100% about then it's not a good thing. But certainly asking others their opinions or what they would do isn't in itself a bad thing... I wouldn't like people to isolate themselves from the village even more thinking they can't put it out there in order to compare or feel validated. Did that even make sense?? (LOL - please validate what I just said! )

[Arcadia]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

But certainly asking others their opinions or what they would do isn't in itself a bad thing... I wouldn't like people to isolate themselves from the village even more thinking they can't put it out there in order to compare or feel validated.

I totally agree. I think some validation is necessary to help people feel included and supported. After all, we turn to each other in times of need, often because a situation is beyond our own resources. I think though it should be a goal to also help people work through their issue in a non-judgmental way, instead of always patting people on the back and saying "never mind"...which is what I think often happens.

[maz]

It's also something i'm becoming more concious of with ds. having grown up in a house where no praise or feedback (good or bad) was given ever, for anything, sometimes I feel like I lay it on thick with ds as a kind of compensation.

oh hon...im sorry but that is just.....terrible and heartless (I wish I could give you a big hug right now)

Why is it so wrong to say good boy/good girl? Honestly does it really hurt.

AS Lori said we can still praise and say good boy/girl if they do something fantastic, especially as a small child. I think not saying (now this is my opinion dont shoot me down) it in that 'phrase' open's them up more to the adult world were they will be in quick enough time without my help. I also think that as a child if your mum/dad says good girl/boy it makes you feel good not just for yourself but for pleasing your parents. Isnt that something children look for?
I dont however like it being said for EVERYTHING they do. You put your plate up on the sink...good boy/girl. Its tact and placement of the wording in corrospondance with the actions the child makes.

I would be worried if I didnt use it my children would feel unloved and un-noticed for the good things..especially in a big household, as Lori felt. And I dont think it will make them want validation for everything they do

[BellyBelly]

In the PET course we are doing they suggest not to use the 'proud' word unless you say it like this:

"You must be very proud of yourself"

NOT

"I am so proud of you"

That way they look within. It's been a hard habit to break, I don't say it alot anyway, but yeah it's much better when you can say it in a way that makes them look within and think, 'Yeah, I am pretty proud of myself, I did a great job!'

[Oorki Galoorki]

Maz so to me pleasing my parents shouldnt be important.. but i have been conditioned to believe that if i make them happy i will be happy.... its not so even now i have issues(yes my own issues) that i am looKing for validation from them i want to make them proud... i want those words that i grew up with!... but the words stop.

so wouldnt it be better to teach our children to look at them selves for validation first then with them knowing they are happy, it makes us happy.. not the other way around.

my MIL and SIL say good sneezing! FFS how can you have a good sneeze? i have started to change good xyx to thankyou. thankyou for puting the dishes away great for doing it with out me asking.... yk?

[maz]

I capiesh!! honestly I get it. Ive been sitting here thinking about this for ages now wondering how exactly I praise my children. Couldn't there be a balance as such with it though? I use thankyou alot like you explained. Would it still sound right then to say..I couldnt have done it with out your help?

Man this boggles my brain. I really dont wnat my kids to feel like they have to validate the last poo they did...Jed and I have said we want them to be themselves without feleing inadequet..and thought we had been doing it right but now im starting to doubt out methods.

[Oorki Galoorki]

HAHA well if you were my MIL you probably would praise for poo!! haha

yeah you are letting them know you appreciate there help with out the goods vs bads...

hey its all a learning curve, and im only at the begining of this one my self

[Inanna]

I totally get you Anna...

When we look outside of ourself for okayness - we also look outside ourself for blame. Neither is being responsible emotionally. I cannot make another person happy or unhappy. They have to choose which gig they will play... However, how I live, respond etc can bring with it feelings of joy, contentment, unhappiness, fear... But they are inside me. Not outside me.

I reflect on the occassions when I hear this outside blame for feelings. I can no longer be responsible for your feelings than I can for your actions...!

As for praise. I wholeheartedly embrace the self responsibility in that. I don't use good girl bad girl... For to take it to another level - who am I to judge what is good and bad??? Even the very worst of things can be good - for it can teach us. I think we have evolved as a society to be less reliant on using bad and good to describe situations or people.

I use the virtues to describe what I see in my kids... (has anyone read the Virtues Guide by Linda Popov?)... DD I just watched you showing generosity when you gave your last sandwhich to your brother! How did that make you feel???

This helps children explore their feelings, name them and own them...

"Fred I just witnessed you showing unkindness to your brother - I want you to come here away from the situation to think"... "When you feel like you can tell me what was happening for you let me know"...

Kids thrive on it. My kids also go to an alternative school who's learning is neohumanist. There is always responsibility for actions - positive ones and negative ones!

With my older daughter when she says: Annie made me feel silly!"... I say: "wow she is powerful to control your feelings!"... "Well ya know what I mean"... "I think so, you feel embarassed & you are looking to Annie to be responsible for it"... Ahhhh Mum - wouldya get off for a minute!...."But yeah you're right - she can't make me feel it can she"....

It really is powerful. And changing our language and our paradigms take work and effort. We all fail dismally some of the time. It's about getting back on the horse...