Ok, so I catch the train regularly with some friends.
There's this other girl that previously caught the train with us. Let's call her Betty.
None of us really like Betty. One of the other girls *dislikes* Betty a lot, the rest of us fluctuate between finding her annoying, not liking her, and disliking her.
The girl who dislikes Betty is sufficiently against her that she suggested catching another train to avoid her ... and the rest of us find her distasteful enough that we agreed.
I wasn't 100% comfortable with this without letting Betty know, but as the other girls have known her a fair bit longer than me, I decided it really wasn't my place, and so I've butted out.
Every now and then, Betty texts the other girls (she doesn't have my number, and I've blocked her on FB) to see if she can meet up, or to find out what train they're catching, so she can meet up with them.
They give her various excuses, or tell her the wrong train, or tell her the first carriage and then hide until the train has pulled in and then get the last carriage, or whatever.
I find it awfully, awfully primary school, and just plain mean.
I don't have a whole heap of sympathy for Betty. She's an unpleasant, racist, arrogant, sizeist, anti-working-mother, misogynistic, misinformed creedist. She has criticised "fat" women for wearing grey because "it makes everyone think of elephants, and you don't need that in the workplace". She said it was "disgusting" for me to eat cucumber on the train (despite my being unable to eat anything else, courtesy of morning sickness). She was livid that he new manager was having to step aside and allow her previous boss return from maternity leave (because "everyone knows that women won't work as hard or as long after they've had a baby). And behind my back she accused me of "brainwashing" my DSs because we pray with them and for them before bed. And she's b*tched out people who she thinks are looking at her, or anyone one who dares to sit in "our" seats on the train, which personally I find pathetic. We get on right at the start of the line, and can sit somewhere else.
I don't like her. She's really unpleasant.
But she's a human being, and I'd be a whole lot more comfortable just telling her that we don't get on, and we don't want to catch the train together any more.
It wouldn't be nice to do, but it's a whole lot more reasonable than the avoidance methods currently being utilised by the other girls ...
I said as much to one of the girls (let's call her Penny) a couple of days ago, when Betty texted her, asking outright what train and carriage she would be on, so she could make sure that she was on it too, as it's been a couple of months since she last saw us.
Ironically, Penny is the one who really doesn't like her, and it was her returning from maternity leave almost a year ago that instigated the whole "let's catch a different train and not have to see Betty any more" thing.
Penny texted me and one of the other girls to see what to say back. I said just to TELL HER that we don't want to play any more. Penny wanted to know what a nice way of saying that would be.
There is no nice way of saying it, so after a couple more texts back and forward, she asked if I minded her saying that she was catching the train with me.
That is the truth, and so no, I didn't mind. Though it begs the question of whether that will be enough to persuade Betty not to come along ... she has made no secret in the last couple of moths about not liking me.
But I suspect I am sort of being made the scapegoat, and that bothers me. In some ways, I don't really care if she doesn't like me, and if she thinks that she "can't" catch the train with us any more because of me. But in other ways, I'd rather the other girls are honest. They're the ones debating whether to defriend her on facebook, and whether to not answer her calls, and how long they can leave her texts before replying. They're the ones ducking and hiding behind the bike lockers in case Betty is on the train on another carriage and might see them.
I would just prefer to drop the act, lose the passive aggressiveness, and just be honest - we don't get along, we don't want to catch the train together, plesae don't call or text me any more.
If it was a break up, this would be so much simpler.
I have considered catching a different train myself, to not have to deal with her any more, or any of this drama. But I really like the company of the other girls, and we have a good time together, and catch up outside of the train too, sometimes for lunch, or for dinner or drinks. We have an absolute blast, we have playdates, it's really good.
In fact, it's good all of the time, other than when Betty issues come up. And the side that comes out of the other girls when that happens is *not* attractive. They turn into the mean girls at high school, or the ones who did nothing when the mean girls were doing it their thing.
Why is this happening in my thirties?
I don't have her number, and am not friends with her on Facebook. And I don't feel right telling Betty that Penny and the others don't like her. It's not really my place to do that.
So what would you do?
Any experience respectfully and cleanly severing a relationship?
First off - far out, ducking and hiding to avoid her?! High school much?! They need to grow up.
If you had her number I'd suggest just coming clean yourself. Since you don't, you can't really do much else than what you're doing. If they wanna be teenagers, let them.
It would make me seriously reconsider my own relationship with them though.
Personally? I would be catching a train by myself and staying out of it.
TBH when rubbish like this goes on I call it out. I also believe in principle and TBH I think the way these girls have behaved would have me running for the hills. Moreso than someone who is a little annoying every now and then. I mean what does it say about them realistically? That as soon as one person decides they don't like you they will do this to you. Is that a friendship you really want to nurture? And the cowardly behaviour, and using you as a scapegoat? Ick.
I think Betty is truly the innocent here, and I think the girls are behaving in a way that would at the end of the day make me walk away from the friendships.
However... I also think you should be calling them out on their behaviour. Tell them to stop. It's b!tchy, and very high school. Not just tell them that they should tell Betty... but they should stop acting like children.
This whole situation makes me want to run far away. ICK!
What would I do? If i were in direct contact with Betty, be frank and honest - probably by email if I could. But that's not really an option for you unless you unblock, then PM on FB. It just wouldn't sit well with me at all to go sneaking around about this, and frankly, she's given you no reason to be delicate or sensitive. It's just not ok to say the things she has. She should know that people choose to avoid her because she behaves like that. Given she's not talking to you directly though, I think it wouldn't make sense to approach her.
I'd also be pretty direct with your friends. I understand why the don't like her and I get that turning someone away is awkward. But the way they're managing this is childish.
And yes, I've had to do it before. A friend who then became a parent and the way she was parenting (doing things that i believed were damaging to her son) and allowing he son to behave toward my child... the level of denial she was in about several aspects of her life and he tendency to shut me down and go on the defensive when I tried to process stuff with her... I realised that I had completely lost respect for her. It felt so wrong to accept or put off her invitations to hang out, when I found myself cringing and judging her. So I broke off the friendship and I was as straightforward as possible. I did it by email. I was both too scared, and felt I would be pretty confrontational for her to do it in person. She didn't respond... until 12 months later when she sent me a lengthy email telling me that she was grateful that I'd been honest, that she'd hated me for a while but then re-read my original email, taken the feedback on board and made some changes. It was too late for our friendship, but I think in the long run it was the best thing for all of us
Good luck Hun. If all else fails, maybe consider the bus?!!!
Wow. Betty sounds like a real piece of work. I can't say i'd be having much to do with her either!
however, I don't think the other girls are much better with their silly games.
Think i'd be saying to them they should fess up, tell her that her views offend them and unless she can keep a civil tongue they don't want to catch the train with her.
Using u as a scapegoat isn't cool either. I'd be stopping that in its tracks before it gets snowballing.
Awkward situation that could get unpleasant if handled wrong though
So first thing I think when reading this is " Where are you catching the train? is it too work? is just going out?.."
next was wow these people are horrible! Poor Betty!
Then I was like reading the sort of person Betty is. No wonder they are avoiding her!
But then I went back to thinking these other girls are not very nice at all, Im also still stuck on where you are catching the train too.
Then the scapegoat thing.. No no no, don't let them do it. Betty sounds like she could get pretty nasty & if you work with her then it will come back & bite you.
Talk to your friends, tell them the way they are behaving is extremely pathetic & while you enjoy their company its really getting out of hand. Maybe talk to them as a group & then suggest someone other then Penny to talk to Betty.
Why Betty hasn't cottoned on is beyond me, the other girls have ditched her time & time again, one would think she would realise by now! Someone needs to tell her.
The way I see it, you get to an age (especially once having kids), where you turn into a mature adult. You put up & shut up, or you say something & walk away. I've known twits. Plenty of them. But I usually listen to the crap, roll my eyes to myself, maybe let them know my thoughts on whatever it is they wanna winge about & get over it til next time.
If she has a racist comment, you could always tell a little white lie that might make her rethink the things she says to anyone & everyone. I do this when it comes to extended breastfeeding Its not a lie though Just makes them rethink their big mouth.
She will not learn how to get along with the general public if noone tells her she's saying the wrong things. Let her know it offends you & she may or may not learn from it. If she doesn't, maybe just be polite but stand offish IYGWIM. Don't engage in conversation other than short answers that might make her see you're not too interested.
Anything is better than the immature high school crap these girls are carrying on with. Just because you're 'putting up with her' on the train doesn't mean she needs to be in your lives. Its only to & from work is it not?
Maybe ask those girls how they'd feel if something happened to her due to depression after being treated that way by them? The way they're acting may have a bigger impact than they think...
To clarify, the behaviour as it is now on behalf of the girls is what it's escalated to - not what they initially started doing.
Initially, and for quite some time, we would interject (eg: she'd make a racist comment, or abuse someone for "staring" at her, and we'd putt her up, or point out that the person appeared to be staring into space, or looking through the window, not her in the reflection, etc). We'd try to get her to settle down or whatever.
I guess not engaging her in conversation is tricky, because (answering another question!) the train ride is to work every day, and it's a 60 minute ride.
There's no way of ignoring her which isn't in my opinion just as bad and juvenile as hiding from her.
The ducking and weaving bit should also be explained a bit more - the girl knows what one of the other girls' cars is (I think because I *think* they used to catch the train from the same station) and if she sees the other girls' car there, she'll sometimes call her and demand to know what train she is/was/will be on.
I've tried calling out Betty's behaviour. It's atrocious, but she either ignores it, or just thinks my POV is stupid/wrong, and it just makes her not like me. The others have also called out her behaviour, and she is all chastised for the rest of that train trip, and then the next day, it's like it never happened.
I've tried calling out the other girls' behaviour. I've said categorically that I think they should just TELL her they don't want to catch the train together, and that they shouldn't lie. Lying IMHO is never justified, and in this instance, it's completely defunct because it means Betty still doesn't know (as she doesn't seem to take hints) that they don't like her.
All the hints have fallen on deaf ears, as have the gentle suggestions that maybe it would be better for her to catch the train later and get some more sleep, or earlier and get a head start on work. In my opinion, she's not going to get it without something more direct. And direct isn't going to work from me because if she thinks it's just me who doesn't want to catch the train together, and that I can just suck it up. I'm not sure whether she just has no radar for social cues, or whether she is passive aggressive and is deliberately ignoring them. No idea.
Also, to clarify my concerns about scape goating, the girls haven't (as far as I'm aware!) actually blamed anything on me, but in the most recent set of texts, Penny said that she was catching the train with me (which was the truth) to see if that would be enough of a disincentive for her to catch the train with them. What I don't want though is for Betty to get the wrong end of the stick, and to twist it around in her own mind that she "can't" catch the train with them because I'm there, or for her to think I'm somehow trying to stop her but the others like her ... part of me doesn't care because I *don't* like her, and I *do* want her to not catch the train with us. But part of me doesn't want to be the bad guy when the truth is that none of them want her to catch this train ...
In an ideal world, she'd make some new friends who catch a different train or at least a different carriage, and she'd have a rollicking good time too!
Keike - yes, it's pretty immature, and that's part of my issue. And yes, it's getting to a point of wanting to catch another train myself to avoid the drama. I'm not sure I need this kind of stuff on my way to work! But this connection just seems to bring out the worst in them. It's not like they act this way about other things at least not to this degree! ... just this one ...
clover - yeah, I initially tried to consider it like a teaching time, educating her a little here and there (through my responses to thing she says) about positive things to say and do, and confronting some of her prejudices, etc, and I also was concerned about the impact if she thought she wasn't liked etc, but it got so bad, and some things were so severe that while I forgive her, I'm not prepared to have her in my life any more. Despite my efforts, there was no apparent benefit being received by her, and it's not my obligation to keep her entertained on the ride to work. And while I don't want to hurt her feelings, I have decided that I am not responsible for her reaction(s) to a natural consequence to her behaviour (losing a friendship). I know you're not saying that I am responsible, I'm just letting you know my thought process on those points
Rouge - I really don't find Betty to be the victim at all. I don't want this to turn into a thread catting about all her crimes, but suffice it to say, they are vast and varied. That doesn't make the girls' behaviour now justified at all - I think they're just out of strategies, which is why I'd like to present another one. My next strategy would be a bandaid ripping expedition - just TELLING her we don't get on, and don't want to catch the train together any more. Short, simple, direct, and not really leaving room for interpretation. The other girls don't want to do this because they don't like confrontation, and don't want to be "mean". My view (and I have expressed it) is that what they are DOING is mean, and is also confusing and interpretable for Betty, and will just prolong it.
Thus my need for other suggestions as to how to tell Betty
I guess my view is that I understand Penny and the others want to think of a "nice" way of telling Becky to **** off, and there is no such thing. But IMHO the *kindest* way of doing things is just to tell her, perhaps in a text, that we do not want to catch the train together. Black and white. Not, "we'd rather not ..." or "we would prefer it if ..." or "we don't think that ..." or anything subject to interpretation.
And here's the rub - I can't do it on their behalf.
They need to do it, and they don't want to, because they think that would be mean, and they'd rather avoid the issue for the time being.
Any tips on how I can word it to the other girls, to help them to take that step of doing it?
Some people just aren't capable of doing what needs to be done in these circumstances. I am like you, and would just tell someone it's over. But not everyone has the self confidence to do that.
Perhaps the two friends need to decide which of the two is best suited to telling her that she is not welcome. Make it more about who will do it, rather than if it will be done at all.
Sounds like for whatever reason, Betty doesn't know any better , but these other girls? I suspect they do & therefore the onus to behave better is on them. They are acting like utter twats under the false impression that they are somehow being righteous.
I've been in situations like this before both as a teen and surprisingly as an adult where this ' group think' gets out of hand and feeds off itself. I suspect none of the women would be behaving like this on their own, it's the group, pack mentality where people reinforce each other's bad behaviour that makes it ok in their heads.
If it were me, I would distance myself from all of them. I've found in the past that when in these situations if you find yourself the cheese that stands alone, even if the situation resolves itself (ie they stopped acting like rabid *****es) the relationship never quite recovers between the group as it only really functioned on the basis of dealing with the perceived threat or enemy. Once the threat goes away the group tends to start *****ing at each other and eventually dissolves.
I'd pull your friends up on their behaviour, yes it may damage your friendship with them, but you need to be true to who you are as a person and be authentic to who you are as a person.
I'm crap at this sort of situation as well. I'm not particularly fond of confrontation so this is probably what I would do in theory but I think in reality there is a fair chance I'd just head for a different train or hope fervently that the situation resolved itself!
I would sit down with the others, or whoever you perceive the ringleader (if there is such a thing) to be & put it quite simply as you have in your post - someone needs to spell it out to Betty and do it soon.
I think Betty being such an obnoxious person is a bit beside the point - as someone else said, you need to be true to who you are & how you want to behave and stick to that. If the other girls can't work with that, then maybe catch ups outside catching the train are still ok but maybe not getting the train itself.
I know the other girls are your friends. I have difficulty staying friends with people whose behaviour I dont respect. If they can't suck it up, be an adult and get on with life, then I wouldnt have a lot of time with them. I certainly wouldnt buy into the whole, how do we tell her we dont like her stuff. My response would be, "this is my advice, if you dont like my advice, dont ask me again and don't use me as an excuse".
However, I am black and white about my values, my friends and relationships in general. I am also generally anti-social, and would eventually find catching a train with the same people regularly a bit smothering, so wouldn't be in that situation anyway.
Sorry, that doesn't actually help you at all, unless you decide to just back off and tell them you're not interested in talking about Betty. If they sort it out, fine. If they dont, that's their problem. Dont make it yours.
I think you could say something to them along the lines of hey, I know she's awful and we don't want to spend time with her, and I know its never pleasant having any kind of confrontation, but I'm really not comfortable being used as the reason why none of you spend time with her on the train anymore. I think she deserves to be told the truth as kindly as possible now because its not a good way to treat her, and no matter how unpleasant she is, she deserves more than these silly games you're playing at her expense.
That's the nice way. TBH I'd be going more along the lines of you all need to grow the hell up. If you can't do the decent thing and grow a spine and tell her how you feel, then you're worse than she is.
I know I need to love my neighbour as myself, but does that mean I have to sit and chat to them on the train?
Today she was debating (with herself) whether she needed to move her car, as she'd parked in a disabled space without knowing it. Now, let's put to one side the question of how she suddenly knew it was a disabled space if she hadn't known when she got on the train ...
But she then launched into a lengthy argument about how it should be ok, because another person had parked in the spot next to her, and he "clearly" wasn't disabled, as she's seen him walking and running in the past, and when I suggested he may have a hidden disability or be a war vet or similar, she lambasted me because that's impossible because (a) P-Platers (which he apparently is) cannot be war vets, and (b) in any event, she's seen him talking to people and laughing on the train numerous times, ergo there can be no mental or emotional issues, or other hidden disability.
After 10 minutes of arguing, I just dropped it because you just can't educate some people some times ...
By the end of the hour trip, and several other things which I just didn't go into because there was absolutely no point, I said to the girl who gets off at my stop that I'm just not going to do that again, and I might just start catching another carriage because I'd rather be by myself than put up with that.
She said she would too.
So we're catching up socially (all four of us) without Betty on Friday night, and I'm just going to raise it, and say that I'm happy to ask Betty not to sit with us anymore, and that if they would rather not be involved, and not have it "from" them that's fine, I will just catch another train or carriage myself and catch up with them outside of the train.
This isn't about picking a side (nutter -v- Betty) it's about whether they want to be accountable for their own preferences or put up with someone they don't like, to keep the disquiet (I can't call it the peace ... you should have heard her this morning ...)
The only decision for me now is whether to lay out some reasons for Betty as to why I/we don't want to catch the train with her, to give her something to ponder and maybe mature in, or whether it's fine for me to decide that's just another thing she'll argue about, criticise and lambast and try to twist around and whether I can be bothered.
Again, because over the past year plus, I am yet to see her actually absorb anything that anyone has said to her, even over very minor things, and I suspect I would be wasting my breath.
Not fun. Wish it didn't need doing, but it does.
If however the other girls just don't want it said, that's fine, I'll go somewhere else. I'll read my book. My book isn't a heinous *****.
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Telling someone they're not welcome ... WWYD?
Where are you catching the train? is it too work? is just going out?.."
Poor Betty!
reading the sort of person Betty is. No wonder they are avoiding her!
Its not a lie though
Just makes them rethink their big mouth.
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