Beany, we posted at the same time! I am glad the christening went so well!!!Eva also hates being passed around - she is a mommy's girl for now! I'll enjoy it while I can! Put up some pics if you have any!
We should plan a Brussels bubs and mums trip...! lol...I think that I am more likely to be in Australia sometime soon (I have a friend marrying a guy from Perth - they have not chosen the location of the wedding, but I know Perth is an option).
Sesame, I am so sorry to hear about your dad. I send my condolences to you and your family. You are right though - it is better not to have him suffer...that is worse than anything. I am glad he got to see Liam!
Suz, did you eat anything different lately? Or maybe it is just a growth spurt - hope it ends soon!
Carmey, my trainer is making me do a lot more cardio at the moment (I think he sees I have a lot to lose) and lots of toning and hypopression (I am not sure if that is the word in english...) abs...I went to the physio who explained that straight crunches and sit ups should not be done ever for women since it puts all the pressur on the vagina and perineal muscles! I didn't know that! In any case he has stopped my abs for a while - until a bit after the third and only lets me do breathing ab excercises, as well as working legs, back (my posture has turned to crap from breast feeding and sleeping in a seated position!) and arms (jiggles!)...so he is focusing on everything but not too much on abs except for the deep breathing - which is harder to do than regular situps - I actually have more ab pain after that than with standard ab excercises...And he tells me to do the eliptical whenever I can and walk and do as much cardio as possible.
It is wierd though - I find the weight sort of staying the same. I think my body is looking better but I have not lost an ounce...It is depressing. But whatever. I might beone of those who loses weight with the weaning.
Lani, glad Jett is doing so well. You are all welcome if you are ever over
AFM, another night like clockwork. Eva seems to have gotten her rythm down to Sleep at 8 wake at 12, 3330 and 630, then awake around 8...not exactly the wonderful hours some of you girls are getting, but I'll take it - I did manage to get into bed at 10pm last night (almost 9!) and feel better this morning - I will keep aiming for the 9pm bedtime...
We have workers in the hosue today finishing up the doors to our showers (thiçs is the last big thing left - we have been using the guest showers since we moved in, so it will be nice getting itno our own bathroom!) - then there are a few little things to finish up and the apt is TOTALLY done!
xoxo to all!
Last edited by BrusselsSprout; February 8th, 2010 at 06:00 PM.
Beany, we posted at the same time! I am glad the christening went so well!!!Eva also hates being passed around - she is a mommy's girl for now! I'll enjoy it while I can! Put up some pics if you have any!
Hi Girls,
Sesame - I'm so sorry to hear about your DadThat's great that he was around long enough to meet Liam. Liam is a good boy for sleeping so long for you.
Carmey - I loved your birth story! I only got to read it last night. Thanks for the reminder to drink more water, I keep forgetting and I think it does affect my supply. Congrats on Jack's sleep, that's great!
Beany - The Christening sounds like it went well. I inherited the Christening gown that my Grandma Christened my Dad and Uncles in, but we aren't religious so I won't get to use it. However, I bet your Mum was proud to see Michael in your gown, that would have been really special. My family are from the Lakes District too, from Buxton. I've never been there but my Dad and Grandma both told me how beautiful it is. Don't worry, you will get to wear the new clothes as your baby weight starts to drop off.
Lani - I know what you mean! It's incredible how much time babies take! There were days with Craig where I didn't get to shower or eat because if I put him down he would start crying. Not to mention all the extra washing and cleaning that babies generate. You are doing well to post considering that you've had a windy baby to deal with. I'm so glad you've got Jett's tummy troubles sorted now.
Brussels - Me too! I'd love to visit! I think the ab exercises you're doing are what we call 'isometric' exercises, like the plank or where you do half a sit up and hold it. My GP said I still have at least a finger-width gap in my abs so I can't start crunches yet. I've been doing isometric exercises and yoga poses since seeing her which will hopefully close it up. Sounds like your personal trainer is pretty good! Stick with it, I'm sure you'll see results soon. But we do all seem to lose the baby weight differently. I lost weight over Christmas without dieting or exercise, but the other new Mum in my Mum's Group (her bub is 5 months old) said today that she's only lost her baby's weight and hasn't lost the rest (and she was much trimmer and fitter than me).
AFM - Ryan seems to have settled again and both boys were really good today. It looks like it was just the immunisations that initially upset Ryan. But it does appear that when one boy is upset that it upsets the other one, so when Craig was tired and having tantrums yesterday it upset Ryan. It's a vicious cycle that I didn't have with only one kid. DH got back today after spending an extra night away (he was too tired to drive home and decided to play it safe). Morning Tea with our Mother's Group was great and we're getting together again at a different girl's house on Friday.
Hi Sesame - oh no I'm so sorry to hear about your dad, I'm glad he's out of pain now and it like the other girls have said it's wonderful that he held out for Liam to be born, I'm sure he's looking over him and you with such pride.Yay for Liam having a big sleep, doesn't it make such a difference! I've been told once they start doing that they pretty well stay that way, Amelia had a couple of set backs as well but is has done 4 nights in a row of 8+ hours so here's hoping, she did another 10 hours last night....we're very lucky so far.
Hi Beany - thank god it's not just me, how depressing is this clothes thing. I bought some really nice shorts online and they arrived today, size 12 which I thought would be safe as I usually wear between a 10 and 12 and while they fit I have this massive big muffin top hanging over the top, seriously I nearly vomited when I saw myself in the mirror, I'm hideous!I was looking at my wedding pics earlier and I just want to look like that again, guess I'll have to get the personal trainer back if I want to do that as that's how I did it then! I need to get cracking and stop eating crap.....I just can't get motivated. Tomorrow I'm visiting a friend who had a bub a few weeks ago, she lives near one of the shopping centres so we're walking the prams to the shops, it's only about 15 mins each way but then we'll walk around the shops so should be good exercise. I'm really glad Michael's christening went well, did you do "Church of England"? That's what we'll be doing I think, DH isn't keen as he's not religious at all but even though I don't go to church or anything either I still want to christen her. Mum is hassling me already.
Hi BS - gee you sound like you're getting a great workout good on you! That's interesting about the abs, I am going to start doing something tomorrow but now I'm wondering if I should. I do some where I lie on my back and raise my legs up and down without touching the ground, it kills but it's great for the tummy muscles. I've never had a six pack or totally flat stomach, well not one I can remember, but I so have to get rid of this flabby tyre, it upsets me so much every time I try clothes on I feel so revolting.
Hi Suz - I must be like the girl in your mums group, I lost 8 kgs instantly but have only shifted 1 kg since and still have 6/7 to go, booooooo.
Hi Carmey, Hi Lani!
Time for a cup of tea for me.......I caught up with my pregnancy aqua class friends and their bubs today, had a lovely day.
I'm the same with only having lost the baby's weightsucks for me! As for the excercises, that is not it and the physio told me to be very careful not to do those things...be careful beacuse the pressure can cause more opening and also put unneccessary weight on your vaginal and perineal muscles...if you look up "physiotherapy ab exercises" you will find some examples...It is sort of deep breathing then you have to hold the breath and spread the ribs very far with your muscles and usually apply pressure to either your knees, the floor etc..sounds easy but is really VERY VERY hard to do. There is no jerky or strong movement realy just breathing and using your muscles...but it is hard and it hurts!
RE: the mini pill...I read online that it can make some women very hungry and gain weight - I have been feeling hungry lately but am not sure if it is the BF...anyone else feel this way. I also crave sugar where I did not before. I am also breaking out a bit on my face...i am seriously considering going the condom route now...ugh. i hate condoms- I would be glad to hear if you guys are hungrier...I am curious to know if it is the pill or me...
Alison and Beany - clothes! Ha! I am in tights and muumuus! Well not muumuus but the baggy stuff I wore while pregnant!- I tried on a pair of my baggy prematernity jeans and could not slide them over my fat butt! I refuse to even go into my ****tail dresses
so depressing!
Alison - you should avoid those ab exercises...try doing side abs and core breathing and resistance rather than the pumping up and down. I think it is safest to maybe see a physio or get a dvd or look up online some good exercises...The physio sacred the crap out of me - she told me "you can do abs if you want, and you'll have a 6 pack but pee in your pants" eeeesh!
And if it makes you feel any better, you should be really happy that you still fit into your "size" even with the muffin top! I used to be a size 4 american (I think that is an 8?) and even as small as a size 2 (so 6 i guess?) at the height of my fitness (hello, one year before getting pregs!) and I cannot even fit into my baggiest stretch pants which are a size 10, I am talking can't even slide them over my ass! Kill me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok enough whining - I am super tired so am complaining...Dh got the brunt of it tonight! He was like 20 minutes late from the gym and I was in a foul mood and my back hurt from carrying the baby since she would not be put down so I was late on her bath and she was grumpy and tired, so I got annoyed and very nicely ignored him for a good half hour - I did not want to yell so I kept it shut then explained to him that I needed him and that he works a lot and it would be nice if he could be here for bath time. He promptly bathed the baby then brought her to me for a feed then burped and put her to bed. I then proceeded to feel bad since he he really is so helpful and hands on and I was *****ing because he was 20 minutes late
On the good side I ran and speed walked (when I say speed walked I mean FAST) 5k at my training session today! I was sweaty but I could have gone for more! I was so happy and my trainer gave me a big hug and told me that he is happy to see how motivated I am. I didn't want to tell him I tried on pants earlier that day and toyed with the idea of killing myself! lol
But I am aiming to run a 10K race at the end of may, so I was really happy to see that I might have a chance at making it. It took me an hour to do 5K today, and I usually am able to run a 10K in about an hour, so I need to get back there...that is going to be my long term goal and if I get there, I'll be so so so so so happy and proud of myself. So here's hoping....
I am dead, need a shower and a sleep so am off to bed - I think tonight will be 10pm too...but two nights in a row is already not so bad...I'll get to the 9pm sleeptime one of these days!
bis kisses to everyone!
Morning girls,
How did everyone go last night?
Suz - glad to hear Ryan is settled again. How funny that the boys are in sync - have you heard of that happening before?
Alison - OMG, my muffin top is the worst! I also hate when I sit down and I can feel this tyre of fat all around my waist. My stomach was always super flat and I always had a six-pack. Now I have a 24-pack. Boooooo. However, I am definately going to do more strengthening work, so do things like planks, leg lifts etc rather than sit-ups (thanks Brussel!).
BS - Having that 10km race goal is fantastic. I think it's the quickest way to get to your pre-baby weight. I'm going back to my running group tomorrow night where we do 10km. I have only been doing around 6km at the moment so I'll see how I go. I also have a goal - I want to do the Sydney Half Marathon. Then next summer I'll get back into triathlons (I'm a member of BRATs - Bondi Running and Triathlon club). My old running pace for 21km was 4:40/km. At the moment I am running 5km in 32 minutes. A long way to go!
ATM - Jack slept for 7 hours again. Clever boy! I just have to learn to go to bed when he does. But last night was a double whammy with Desperate Housewives and Brothers & Sisters. Does anyone watch that? I cried and cried!
xx
Hi Girls, it looks like a few of us are quite depressed about our weight!At least you girls have age on your side, it's so much harder to trim up in your mid 30's....hang on, I'm 37 this year so I guess I'm in my late 30's now! Doubly depressing!
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BS - a size 6 or 8 here is tiny tiny tiny, I haven't been a size 8 since my early 20's! I'd kill to fit into my size 10's and 12's to be honest!
Carmey - wow, running 5 kms, I don't think I could even walk that far at the moment so you go girl. I think you look slim as so you must think I'm a big heffer ha ha! DH took a pic of me and Amelia on the couch the other day, no way am I posting it, it's a close up of my arm and I have tuck shop lady arms for sure! I think I'll have to join the "Biggest Loser" soon.
Today I'm off to see a friend who had a bub a few weeks ago, she lives near a shopping centre so we're going to walk the prams to the shops - it's only about 15 minutes each way but then we'll walk around the shops for a bit so it's good exercise, certainly better than nothing!!!!!! Had another great night, 5th night in a row of Amelia sleeping through, yet again she dropped her last feed, she's done it twice now in the last 5 nights, hope that's ok! So, basically she's sleeping from anywhere around 9.00 pm or 10.00 pm and sleeping through to 6.00 am or 7.00 am. I definitely think the cot is the key as she loves the room, no doubt the formula helps too but I'm still bf'ing before a feed, I figure some is better than none, I'm persevering girls, I'm persevering!
Have a great day everyone!
Hi girls!
Alison - I hear you on the weight, unfortunately. I lost heaps in the first few weeks postpartum (not being able to eat will do that!) but I'm pretty sure I've gained some of that back. I just keep eating junk all the time, need to seriously stop that. And I bloody well need to start exercising again.
BS - go you with the 5kms! I'm with the others who wouldn't even be able to walk that right now! I was actually really fit through most of my pregnancy - it was only at the end that I wasn't able to keep up my exercise. Need to start again!
suz - Glad that Ryan's settled down.
sesame - I'm so sorry to hear about your father
beany - Glad that the Christening went well
Carmey - Liam's the same with the short feedings generally - and with short sleeps most of the time. He's starting to stretch out his nighttime sleep now, though, which is lovely.
Rachel - hi and welcome
And hi to anyone I missed!
AFM - This would be almost funny if I wasn't feeling a bit like death. On a whim, I decided to bake some lactation cookies the other day. Which are absolutely delicious, by the way, and doing absolutely nothing for my weight. I've been eating a few - okay, maybe more than a fewI actually didn't think they were doing anything, until last night. I woke up at about 2am super engorged (about what I was when my milk came in). And typically, Liam had a really long sleep last night (about 7 hours, then 3 hours) and didn't wake up for ages to feed. I should have gotten up and pumped, but I kept on thinking that he'd wake up. Thankfully he's had three long feeds this morning (which is unusual in and of itself, since he only feeds for a short period most of the time) and the engorgement has gone down. But I'm pretty sure I have a blocked duct again now. Running a low fever and generally feel a bit off - had to actually pop Liam off in the middle of a feed and shove him at a sleeping DH so I could dash to the loo this morning. I'm feeling better now after some painkillers and a hot shower. I'm trying to megadose with vitamin C to prevent this becoming mastitis and feeding as much as I can, but if it doesn't resolve I'll do the doc.
Lesson here - the lactation cookies workAlison, could be worth a shot to try to up your supply?
Liam's been pretty unsettled the last few days. I think it's just a developmental stage - he wants to talk and interact all the time and keeps getting distracted on the boob. He spent so much time yesterday popping off and looking around at everything - it was way cute, but frustrating at the same time. After his huge sleep last night he's asleep again now, so maybe there was a bit of a growth spurt involved as well.
Some interesting reading for anyone with unsettled bubs - I just finished reading The Happiest Baby on the Block, which has some awesome ideas for settling bubs.
Whoops, Liam's awake - have to go and feed him I think![]()
Hi Rose - great to hear from you! Oooh recipe please....I hope I can make a wheat free version but would absolutely love to try it!!![]()
This is the recipe I used: https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...ally-work.html
I don't see why you wouldn't be able to make them gluten free![]()
Adding to my post from earlier:
I took Liam out today in a sling. Just up to the shops to run a few errands, but I was a bit worried about it, since he's been unsettled lately. And he snuggled into the sling and went to sleep after about 30 seconds. Awww
I'm really happy, since it's the first time he's really settled in the sling enough to sleep for a while - usually he'll be happy for a few minutes and then start grizzling. I've been popping him into a sling or wrap every day to get him used to it, and it's working.
And now he's asleep in his bassinet again![]()
Hi Girls!
Rose - Slings are the greatest if your bub likes them. It will change your worldI just walked the kids to the local shops for a loaf of bread, with Ryan in the sling. He slept the whole way. With the cookies, I've gone back to eating porridge again and noticed that I've become engorged again. Thanks for the link, because I checked the thread and it seems that oats are one of the active ingredients in the lactation cookies. Hope the blocked duct clears up soon, apart from that you sound like things are going really well
Brussels - Thanks for the tips on the exercises. I used the Hospital Physios and their exercise classes with Craig, but didn't this time and couldn't remember what I was allowed to do. I've been staying away from sit ups and the plank. From memory the physio had me doing something like pelvic tilts until the two halves of my abs closed up again. You have some great goals! You've got me thinking...
Carmey - It doesn't sound like you've lost too much fitness. Hope you survive the whole 10km tomorrow night. Well done again Jack! I'm not managing to keep up with any TV, so I missed both of those
Alison - Walking to/from and around the shopping centre is a great way to start exercising again, especially after a c-section. Some things I've read have said that you shouldn't do any heavy exercise such as running until 6 months after having a baby. I guess it really depends on how fit you were before you fell pregnant. Us older girls do seem to have our work cut out for us. I've got only 1kg to go to reach my pre-pregnancy weight, but in the mirror I look like a balloon that's been sitting behind the couch for 6 months! That's great about Amelia's sleeping. Craig dropped a feed around this age and started to sleep longer at night too, so you're right it's probably here to stay.
AFM - The Wii Fit is telling me that I should aim for a BMI of 22. That means I have to lose another 11kgs after getting back to my pre-pregnancy weight (so 12kg all up). I'm not sure about this as a goal, so maybe I'll do a race like Carmey and Brussels?
OK, time to feed Ryan.
Hi everyone! Just a super quick post while M's gorgeous godmother does some laps with M around the garden. Within minutes of M's godmother arriving yesterday, she had her tightly swaddled and asleep in a darker room where she stayed asleep for 3 hours in the middle of the day. She's my hero!!!! (And BS can't remember if I told you about my dummy experience, but used it again last night just to settle and took it out before she fell asleep, so it wouldn't startle her if it fell out and that seemed to work). And today has been much better too. I'm a bit embarrassed that I didn't try the swaddling again
but I was convinced M wouldn't tolerate it. But its stopping her from startling herself awake. Anyway, I really, really hope I can maintain this improvement. If I could just have one whinge though, my shoulder is hurting bad (I think its related to the back thing I had the other day). Hoping it improves with a bit of rest. But that's so hard to get!! Can't wait for my physio to get back from hols next week!!! Anyway, I'd better go, but all of you stop worrying about your weight. You all look gorgeous in your pics. REALLY!
Sesame - so sorry to hear about your dad. But its wonderful that he got to meet Liam. That will be a very special memory.
Oh thanks Rose, I'm going to try them, I can substitute the flour for gluten free flour, easy! Thanks a bunch!
Hi Suz, Hi Tilda..........my shoulder and neck are killing me too, grrrr.
Sorry no persies, dying for a shower as went for a big walk and am very sweaty!
xx
sesame - I'm so sorry to hear of your dad's passing. I hope you find some comfort in that he held on to meet Liam. My thoughts are with you and your family.
Lani - Glad you've managed to get on top of Jett's wind problems.
beany - Good on Michael for coping with all those cuddles after his Christening. Glad you all had a great day.
BS - That's great that Eva's settling into a routine. You must be feeling so much better now that you're able to be active again. Good luck with your goal. I'm sure you'll be managing that 10k run by May.
suz - I don't know what would be worse - both boys being upset at the same time or taking turns so that it seems like you are constantly trying to settle someoneHopefully you get plenty of good days in between.
Alison - Yay for 9 and 10 hour sleeps! Does Amelia sleep much during the day? Isn't the Strider Plus fantastic? I'm glad I spent the money on it up front, even if I did have to wait until January for it to arrive. Its so easy to use. I've also got it in the kingfisher blue - another thing we have in common lol. Did you enjoy your walk/shopping today?
Carmey - Good on Jack for sleeping so long. Hopefully he keeps it up. I recorded Brothers and Sisters. Thanks for the heads up...it often makes me cry.
Rose_Red - I'd better steer clear of oats then if thats the effect they have. I have too much milk as it is. With the blocked duct, I find that massaging any lumps while Amelia is feeding always helps.
Tilda - Well done on your choice of godmother for Matilda. Sometimes its easier for someone else to settle bubs though...they don't smell of milk like we do. I hope your shoulder pain eases soon.
rachel - Welcome and congratulations. I'm another of the december belly buddies whose bub was born in November.
Hi to Andi, kanda, willow and anyone I've forgotten.
AFM - Its been a while since I've had a chance to post. I'm usually limited to reading as I don't often have both hands free to type. Amelia will only sleep on me at the moment and its been too hot to put her in the sling. She is currently sound asleep in her pram. The last 3 weeks or so we have had absolutely no routine. Some nights Amelia would catnap and be up all night, others she would sleep and wake at 1-2am and 4-5am for feeds. Saturday and Sunday nights, she went back to feeding at 11pm and then at 5am which she had been doing at 5-6 weeks. Then last night she didn't settle after her 11pm feed. I left her with DH to go to bed and he woke me at 1:45am to feed her again. She still wouldn't settle after her feed. Eventually I took her to bed with me at 3am and she fell asleep sucking on my finger. Imagine my surprise when I next woke at 11am this morning! Boy did my boobs hurt though.
Other good news is that we have finally sorted Amelia's wind problem. It was definitely a foremilk/hindmilk imbalance and block feeding (feeding from one side during a 4 hour period) seems to have worked. Now its just dealing with her reflux. It doesn't seem to affect her everyday but when it does she has this high pitched squeal after feeds. I think thats why she is sleepig so well in her pram at the moment - she lying on a slight incline.
I'm off to get a few things done while I have both hands to myself. I'll try not to be such a stranger.
Hi Hannah - I was just thinking about you earlier today! Oh goodie you got the Kingfisher Blue too, it's gorgeous I love it and everyone is jealous ha ha. I took the pram for a good walk today (was knackered afterwards) and I just love it, it's so easy to push, so easy to put up and down, I was worried about the cost too but it's definitely worth it. Did you have to wait because you got the 3 wheeler? I was going to do that but it wasn't coming into the shops here until the end of the month so I didn't want to wait lol. Amelia catnaps a lot during the day but I don't care if she's doing 10 hour nights! She'll sleep for a while if she's on my lap or I'm holding her, I can only get about 20 or 30 mins if I put her in her cot at the moment - night time is fine so far, hope I haven't jinxed myself! She did sleep while I walked from my friends to the shops and around the shops today for about 2 hours, she loves the new pram, I think she enjoys being higher and being able to see me. I'm glad you're getting on top of Amelia's wind problems, she should start to sleep better once you completely get it sorted.I wish we were in the same state, would be cool to meet seeing as we have such similarities hee hee.
AFM - the girl from work who had the baby is still annoying me, she's letting the baby (1 week old) sleep for 6.5 hours at a time, I told her you shouldn't let them go more than 3 hours at that age but she reckons the nurse said it's fine - I don't believe her as we had our babies at the same hospital and they told me that! Also, she is constantly expressing so she can drink.....that just irks me as I struggle to get much milk and would love to have enough to express like that but it wouldn't be so I can get p*ssed. Sorry girls, she's just irritating me, I knew this would happen so will have to try and keep my distance, this comparison thing is going to do my head in otherwise!
Well, off to bed, nighty night my BB friends!
xx
Hannah, I don't have much time to post and reply to everyone, but seriously try the burp technique i mentioned a few posts back! Eva has reflux and had the hindmilk problem. You're doing well feeding from one side completely, but seriously do the burp technique in betwwen breasts, it is a life saver!
Alsion screw that annoying girl! lol Every nurse says something diff - I had nurses in the same hospital tell me to do on demand and some told me to wake every 4 hours max. I chose on demand, so her baby is sleeping that much let them...It is the beginning. She has not understood that there is a quiet before the stormNewborns are just little blobs...they have not started crying yet
lol Don't focus on her negativity. Amelia is gorgeous and easy to handle and you should be bragging to her, but you're not like that so let her keep talking - she'll end up looking stupid at the end.
I have to run guys - got eva bathed and down to bed and have to get a few things done while aiming for a 930 bedtime! I have 45 minutes!!!
xoxo
Last edited by BrusselsSprout; February 10th, 2010 at 04:50 AM.
Alison - I've got the 4-wheeler but I had to wait due to shipping delays. The strider plus is a very new model. It was supposed to be out in November but it didn't end up arriving until mid-January. I'm glad your Amelia likes it. Mine does too. We also bought the car capsule that fits to the pram so I can take her in and out of the car without waking her up. I definitely let you know if I'm ever in Perth...would be cool to catch up.
Keeping your distance from that girl sounds wise. Motherhood is hard enough without having to compete with other mums. Thats what I love about chatting to you girls. We share our experiences and help each other out. No judgement or competition at all. Also, I second what BS said. Wait until her baby is 3 weeks old...thats when the crying will start.
BS - I have tried the burp technique, but we don't often have a problem bringing up the wind. Sometimes her reflux is silent. I'll hear a wet burp but nothing comes out. Then she starts screaming, I think because it burns her throat. Usually she'll settle down if she does manage to vomit. Although I have noticed that her worst days are right before she does a big poo. Last night was a bad one (up from 11 until 4 this morning) and then she did an evacuation poo after her 9am feed. She's been much happier since.
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