Atheism/Agnosticism General Discussion #1

[suse]

What do you want to talk about echidna?

ETA: Just reading back on earlier posts in the thread, and a few people have questioned the difference between agnosticism and atheism. This is not intended to challenge anybody's personal interpretation of the concept of agnosticism, as there are accepted interpretations that do deviate from the original meaning of the term. But I thought I'd throw in a bit of the history and provenance of the concept of agnosticism for anyone interested.

Agnosticism literally means 'without knowledge' (from 'gnosis' - to know). It is a philosophical stance whereby the holder acknowledges that the reason for, or source of existence is unprovable. The concept was originally developed in the 19th century by TH Huxley, who defined it as being "...wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism." Agnosticism is an intellectual concept; its core tenet is a rejection of the unprovable. It is not that an agnostic is open to the possibility of existence of a higher being, but that it cannot be proven.

Atheism, on the other hand, is either non-belief in a higher power (known as 'weak' atheism) or denial of the existence of a higher power (known as 'strong' atheism).

[echidna]

I'm not sure what I want to talk about. Perhaps, as non-religious people, do you feel offended when someone of faith tells you how great their faith is and offeres to pray for you?

[suse]

Personally, no I don't feel offended, I actually feel honoured that somebody would do that. Just because I don't have faith, doesn't mean that it is any less valid to those who do.

It depends on how it is intended though. If the person respects that I hold a different belief and does not see me as a lesser person for not having faith, then it can be quite a beautiful thing to know that they are extending their faith to me in the form of prayer, which I understand to be a very deep and personal expression of a person's relationship with God.

[echidna]

What I was thinking, discussion turns to say Christenings. And a friend says how great it is to be baptised so you can go to heaven, ...... and then offers to pray for your baby. Sometimes I feel patronised when someone I am talking to knows I am non-religious keeps talking about religion or keeps trying to win me over.

[Aimz]

Personally, I don't bring up my belief system unless somebody brings up theirs with me. I am confident enough with my life stance that I can openly and honestly describe my own beliefs without feeling I have offended anyone.

My Uncle once said to me, after explaining my belief system (Humanism) that he would pray for my eternal soul because he feared I would not be accepted into heaven. I politely told him his prayer wasn't necessary.

[Aimz]

do you feel offended when someone of faith tells you how great their faith is and offeres to pray for you?

Just further to my previous post...

I think when people are honest and open about how great their faith is, then that can be a cue for you to be honest and open about yours. What I did was establish where my beliefs lie. It's one thing to say that you don't believe in God, so what DO you believe in? Where do your values and morals come from? What keeps you going? What pushes you?

Having done extensive research into Humanism and establishing this as my belief system, I have been able to come up with a response that answers all of these questions without simply saying "Because I just don't believe in God". I can say that I believe that Humans create their own destiny, we create our own purpose in life. When we die, I don't believe we go to Heaven, but I do believe we live on in the people who's lives we touched, because we leave our mark on them, our impression (this in turn has a butterfly effect). My values and morals are born from an appreciation for the world in which we live. I feel we have a responsibility to protect the Earth for future generations of Humans. I believe that people have a duty to be good to each other, and being good to yourself is the core of that belief.

There is a way of explaining your belief system without offending anyone - that's my way of doing it! And I am not offended when people open up about their religion. In fact, I find it facinating and I learn as much as I can from them. I think it's important that we have tolerence for ALL belief systems. Understanding brings peace.

[suse]

Echidna, in the situation you've described, your friend seems to have little respect for your choices, and I can understand how her offer to pray for your daughter makes you feel uncomfortable, because she is implying that there is a 'need' to do so. I feel that there is a difference between somebody praying for you (for example, that good things happen in your life) as an extension of love and respect, and somebody praying for you because they believe that you will not be a full and complete person unless God is in your life.

Belief is such a personal thing. The fact that I don't believe in a higher power does not make a Christian's belief any less valid, and vice versa.

Would you feel comfortable telling her that you respect her faith and that it is important to her, but would prefer not to discuss religion with her at all unless she genuinely is interested in your choices? I agree with Amy that it is valuable to have your own moral position clearly defined, and at the end of the day, all you need to know is that you are comfortable with your own beliefs, if somebody else is not, that's their problem.

[echidna]

Actually it was a hypothetical friend. I do have religious friends who know that I have been in and out of religion, and don't push it anymore. They know that I will go to church when I am ready.

Its not that I don't believe in God. Its more of a, there might be a God, but I don't see the point of praying in my opinion. Many people need it, and I understand that. But I take a step back and look at it this way, the most devout countries have more poverty, famine and disease than secular, or not-so-religious countries. IMO praying doesn't produce money, food or medicine (or a cure), so I feel its a wasted effort. Everyone needs hope, but I'm more of an active prayer. How can I actually do something about my plight, rather than praying for God to fix it?